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Gustavo Tolosa: Live Webinar with Dr Doug Lisle, PhD QA Session
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all right thank you everybody for logging in we see people from all over the country and all over the world Australia and Scotland and Oregon and Washington and Texas I'm Gustavo solo said the webinar host for dr. mcdougal and I'm in Dallas Texas and as usual as usual I'm very happy to see all of you logging in and today we have a guest because dr. mcdougal just could not make it and he's really sorry that he cannot be here today but we have a wonderful guest that all of you enjoy so I'm sure we'll have no complaints and dr. mcdougal will be back next week when he will do the webinar on arthritis and so make sure you go back to the website later on today we will have the page ready to sign up and I just want to say a few words for those of you who are new to the webinar about dr. Doug Lyall who is our guest today and he is the psychologist for the mcdougal wellness program and the director of research for True North health center and dr. Lyle has lectured at Stanford Cornell and other universities until he is the co-author of this wonderful book the pleasure trap mastering the hidden force that undermines health and happiness and he is also the founder of esteem dynamics I really encourage you all to visit that website is esteem dynamics org and I will type it here in the chat area and dr. Lyle has a website where you can get more information about these ideas and you can watch other videos that he has and also for people who might be interested in making a phone consultation with dr. Lyle you can go there for more information and again it is steam dynamics org so I am going to welcome today dr. Doug Lyall how are you doing today from California great great to see you again very good always as always we always have fun in our our together here the webinars don't we so today what we will do since we hadn't planned on it but dr. Lyle was so kind to just jump in and fill in for today we will have all of you just type questions here in the chat box and hopefully we will get to all of them or most of them and I'm just going to start with one generic question look Lyle because there's something that I hear quite often if not all the time people that say that they are following the way of eating the dr. mcdougal talks about and you also in the two North does as well you know a plant-based way of eating with no added fats and with enough starches to keep us fulfilled and so they say that they follow it and they still either can't lose the last few pounds or can't lose weight so is it possible to follow a plant-based diet but be eating foods that are still rich in calories and fat like maybe too much bread or pastas or maybe a lot of nuts or maybe even sugar or what could it be that would be preventing some of these people's to hit a plateau although I know that you don't use that word maybe you can talk about that yeah sure people get very frustrated for a number of reasons but let me let me talk about one of the most common things that happens someone that let's suppose someone begins the MacDougal program and they are 40 or 50 pounds overweight or 60 pounds overweight and so as a result the reason why they're overweight is that they've been eating a diet that's far too rich so they then move to a starch centered diet they they reduce their the fat of their diet probably from 40 down to maybe 20 percent or 15 percent and and their diet is much healthier and what will very often happen is they'll lose 1 to 2 pounds a week and so this may they may lose you know 5 pounds a month or even 10 pounds a month in in some cases so 3 or 4 months goes by or maybe five or six months goes by and the person's down 35 or 40 pounds and so they're it's sailing along and then it stops and so there's still 20 or 25 pounds overweight but things have stopped dead in their tracks and now there are now they're frustrated because they sort of expected things to to just continue on now what's happening is that dependent upon is just a few factors number one your your genetics number two the richness of your diet number three your exercise level those those three things essentially triangulate to hit what I'm going to call an equilibrium so what other people in the world will call other diet you know experts or whatever we'll call a plateau I will say that that this is a misunderstanding but people believe that a plateau is some mysterious process that comes up and gets you it isn't that isn't what's taking place here what is what there is is there's essentially a mathematical equilibrium between your exercise level your genetics and the richness of your diet and so if your exercise level remains the same your genetics definitely remain the same and your your food changes then you are going to have your your weight change up until a certain point until you reach a biological equilibrium and so in this case for example let's suppose that you're eating starch center diet doing a really good job maybe not perfect but you're doing things ninety percent well and you're having some some bread and some pasta but not too much and a few nuts but not too much and everything is going well what's happening is you've gone from a very rich diet to a much less rich diet and as a result your equilibrium point four your weight is much lower and your body starts heading there and it's gonna head there and when it hits that equilibrium it's gonna stop okay so so for example let's suppose that you are naturally a curvy female you're a little bit naturally on the thick side genetically you were eating a rich diet and you were sixty pounds overweight now you're not eating such a rich diet you're eating a good mcdougal diet and it's four five months later and now you're 20 pounds overweight or 25 pounds overweight but it stops okay so now what we have is we have three variables still left in the equation the genes have not changed same genetic problem we've got two problems left though we've got the exercise level and also the richness of the diet and so now what happens is is if a person tightens up their diet a little bit from their the they might do that and they may go a couple weeks and they don't see any change and they say it doesn't make any difference but it does what you're now seeing is the difference between a good diet and a great diet is very subtle and the weight loss is going to be very subtle it's not going to come up at four or five pounds a month it may come off at one pound a month because you're you're almost perfect on the previous diet but not quite so now what we have to do to keep people inspired is they actually have to be more savvy about the math that underlies this issue so if you've hit quota plateau what we have to do is we have to make changes that are essentially taking care of the last mile on this program so we're going to do less dried fruit we're going to do a little bit less nuts we're going to do little less processed foods so as we do that as we move to a one notch leaner diet we would expect that the weight loss which may it might have been six pounds a month before now turns into one common month well in order to measure one pound a month you're going to have to be careful about how you measure so what I tell people to do is I tell them to measure themselves say three days in a row at the beginning of a month and take the average and then we're going to do that same thing a month from now and we're going to see if that average is is a pound less if it's about the same we still stay the course and we go another month at the end of two months we may find that we're down two pounds that we didn't actually even pick it up after a month now a pound in a month is no small feat folks it's 4,000 calories that you've shed it over 30 days so that means you have systematically under eaten by a hundred and thirty calories a day and you weren't trying to push yourself away from the table using you the body simply shed it and so what will very often happen when you're getting down to that last ten or fifteen percent of body weight if you're a naturally thicker person you were going to have to be very tight and the response of the body is going to be relatively slow I've seen a person for example that I'd kept very very close records on that a woman that got down to maybe five percent overbought over what she really wanted to be at and and that we could see that it was appropriate that she had another ten pounds to lose she was completely fastidious for the first week and lost nothing according to the scale and was really irritated at me and I said trust me you are now the change of your diet from where you were to where you are now is very small and the shedding of calories is gonna be very slight she went a second week and still had nothing and by that time she you know she was contemplating dr. Doug murder she was feeling demoralized I said we still can't tell she went it was at the end of the third week that she was down a pound and at the end of the fourth week she was down two pounds so we finally were able to detect this you know very confidently after four weeks we could see that she had shed two pounds and she only had about ten more ten pounds to shed so to take those two pounds down in a month was actually once again inspiring and she went on her way all the way down so this is uh but it but it takes time so this is important for people to realize that their weight loss early when you're overweight is very fast later when you make changes that are subtle you can expect the weight loss change to be subtle right right thank you for saying that I know we've covered this before but it's just it's a very common question so one of our viewers has a question about the whole food plant-based way of eating if it affects depression and and how you know I don't know that it does I think that what winds up impacting person's depression depression is caused by essentially it's caused by indications that we're not doing as well in the world at some arenas as we would hope that's actually and that we hope and expect so if you are a B student in chemistry at the junior college and you study very hard for the final and you get a C you're depressed if you study very hard for the final and get an A you're really excited and if you study really hard to get a B you're neither depressed or excited you're relieved that it's over but but there is no there's no negative tone or a particularly positive tone to that situation so essentially your mood states are our feedback as to whether or not we are above what we expect or below what we expect and our expectations are naturally derived from a lot of data that we sort through in our lives so a Mike Michael Jordan when he went out on the floor he expected to get 25 points a game and he expected to make a bunch of big plays and he expected to probably win somebody else that wasn't as talented wouldn't expect any of those things and if those things happened they would have been elated so essentially our mood states are are relative to our expectations and our expectations are sort of very carefully orchestrated calculations that our mind does to expect of us what is reasonable so when people are depressed it's because some arena of their life usually one of three major arenas it's usually the romantic arena it's friendship arena or its commercial commerce it could also be things in family because also there will be something else which would be your health so it turns out that if you are getting a lot of negative feedback that you are not very healthy and not feeling very good then if you change to a healthier diet and you start to get evidence that you are improving then you can have a huge improvement in your mood so this is you know what I we have seen very often in the mcdougal program people will come in sort of depressed a little bit hopeful kind of demoralized in the ten-day program and then by the end of the ten day program they're ecstatic and they're very excited and that's because they have gotten control of such a major portion of life in a way that they didn't really think that they could so in that way this can help help depression but usually when people ask that question the the underlying question is is my depression being caused by some mysterious chemical imbalance in my brain that somehow the diet will then put in the right fuel and I'll no longer be depressed no that is not how depression works and it's not how your your mood your mood states and your mood changes work the and so it's important to to realize that that this is worth doing and the the benefits are a lot more likely to be indirect I'm not a direct chemical change alright yeah but the medications for depression don't do that job either brightly yes would you say that getting enough Simon might help no no okay pants upon the individual so in other words there are there individuals if there's a Sun deficiency that's a problem it's not a real serious issue but it is a huge issue for some people so essentially you want probably the the main deficiency that exists with respect to depression is actually exercise and and I and I believe I've got my own theories about why this is true the evidence is clear on this measure I believe that the following is the chain of events that that how this works naturally in terms of the natural biology the in in nature if you are getting failure feedback in some area of life what the system tells you is quit doing what you're doing it's not working you are wasting your energy a picture for example a young man who keeps knocking on doors for looking for a job with The Wall Street Journal under his arm and he's in flip-flops and he says I read The Wall Street Journal every day you know I just want it I'm looking for a job somewhere in your marketing department and he keeps getting turned down and laughed at well by the hundredth time we would hope that he would have depression in fact we would hope he would have depression after 15 times or less and the reason is is that the failure feedback should cause him to be depressed and that depression causes a soul-searching to say what am I doing wrong what's wrong with me you see I'm saying this is how this works and it also causes something else which is a lethargic attitude towards putting out any more energy behind this plan and so you're you're designed by nature to conserve energy if you have evidence that something isn't working then you should stop putting out energy behind it and so one of the things that can happen and did happen in the Stone Age is that you would have put out less energy behind losing propositions however you had to keep putting out energy so if we were looking for a place with food and we had gone west and we had gone south and we've gone east and we had failed and we thought that the right thing to do is to not go north because that's usually been a bad idea but we're getting cornered into a situation where all other directions are not working so we're not excited about the idea of going north but we don't have a choice and so what will happen is people in Stone Age environments had to put energy behind the best option even though they weren't that wild about it and they definitely needed a depression as a mechanism to tell them when they were disappointed in the feedback from a given a line of effort and so this is but in a modern environment what can happen is we're so wealthy and we still have you know temperature control housing and a safe place to sleep and we still have food in the refrigerator even though we are being very ineffective in some area of our life and we're surprised by the effectiveness what can then happen is the depression can cause all systems lack of effort and as a result of that people can be under exercised and when you are under exercised I believe that the natural neurochemical mechanisms are not actually where they are supposed to be even under depression so I think the depression is considerably exaggerated oftentimes in the modern environment because the energy conservation mechanisms that naturally kick in with depression wind up including people not getting any exercise which would have been impossible in the Stone Age even though you were depressed and you were conserving your energy and you were looking for a new alternative for for a successful action you had to keep moving or else you were gonna die and so I recommend to people that if they are depressed and we don't have the problem solved yet and you don't have expert help to try to help you figure out how it is that you're going to be more successful in that domain the one thing that we want to do is essentially force yourself to get some exercise in because that is going to probably be a contributing factor to being having this depression worse than it is naturally going to be okay right right alright thank you right dr. Mike in your book here someone is asking in your book the pleasure trap does it help anyone with drug addiction or just relate food you know it's really a more of a a global discussion about the nature of addictive process and so we're not taking this thing step-by-step through the sort of drug problems that people would have but we're talking more globally about how it is that this comes about and what the what the psychological processes are when it comes to addictive like processes the pleasure trap is mostly centered on food as an issue so it's about the problem that that our problems in trying to correct our diets and getting our diets on a healthy track takes us down the kind of challenges that are consistent with drug addiction and therefore you know the book is mostly about that but it's more it's wider than that you know sort of philosophically but that's that's really the problem that it's specifically addressing all right very good thank you would you a comment on a topic that I don't think we've touched it before about how did it how did the idea that we have to have breakfast and lunch and dinner at certain times come about I mean do we really need to do that or just eat win whenever we're hungry yeah we should be looking to just eat whenever we're hungry the there's really no need for us to to look at this as anything other than an animal problem we should be I think it was years ago it's probably 20 years ago or more that I read a book by dr. Wayne Dyer I think it was pulling your own strings or something like that I don't think that's what it was I think it was his third book and he had a concept in there that I thought was very good and the concept was he said first be a good animal and he meant you know sleep when you're tired and exercise to be fit and eat when you're hungry and don't eat more or eat less than what it is that you want in other words he was basically in a very rough way he was saying follow your instincts and he obviously didn't know much about nutrition or anything else as far as that goes he was just sort of making an observation that people to his I as a psychologist he was thinking why are we regimented things in a way we should be following our instincts a little bit more than we are and of course that that general insight is the it was a precursor to the pleasure trap the pleasure trap is very much the story of that have instincts that are sort of telling us what to do however the modern environment is setting those things askew and there it's actually disturbing the natural instinctual rhythms and decisions that human beings would naturally make and so what we want to do is to try to move a little bit more towards some of these try to essentially put our lives on a little more primitive basis with respect to food for example and with respect to exercise and with respect to sleep and so we want to and then be able to follow our instincts from there so in principle we would want to be getting as much sleep as you want so that you wake up spontaneously and naturally in feeling refreshed rather than waking up tired from an alarm so that that would be that that always seems I can remember watching alan Goldhammer my partner I'd give that discussion and did two groups and he would say hey we're designed by nature you should be waking spontaneously feeling refreshed and people would just laugh the concept of waking spontaneously feeling refreshed is it absolutely alien and absurd like there's no possible way that this could ever happen to these people and then we we move on to that and of course we'd say well eat to satiety on whole natural foods well people aren't eating whole natural foods and they want to lose weight and so they know well I can't eat to satiety because of a society on the food that I'm eating that's why I'm you know 40 or 50 pounds overweight so the solution then is to quote diet for God's sakes so and etc so this is I forget what your question was but I was close to answer and we're in there the Oh should people be regimented their their food breakfast you know no the so if if I if it turns out that I ate a lot of food the night before and I've got a lot of glycogen storage and I didn't exercise that much yesterday then I might not eat till noon or one o'clock yeah the next day just simply not hungry so I simply eat when I'm home and I eat as much as I feel like and I when it is that I feel like and that's that and that's rule number one first be a good animal right right I started doing this a while back when I went to true north and I heard more about this and you know there are days that I just don't feel like eating breakfast and I'm perfectly fine and I there's really no reason for me to sit down any breakfast I'm just not hungry and so I can go until noon there's nothing wrong I want you know people think that maybe skipping a meal you know you're gonna die if you don't eat plus we have we had people skip meals for three weeks go 21 days without without eating at True North health center and they almost always are getting better rather than worse at almost any problem that they have so yes it's uh there's no reason to be anxious about making sure that we eat on any particular schedule the schedule should be there serve you not the other way around right right I think another thing to remind people because we all need reminders and besides we have new people coming in every time and some some some of our guests maybe haven't had the chance to read dr. MacDougall's masterpiece discharge solution and his new book here the healthiest diet on the planet that oil is a highly processed what you were substance so yeah you know with no fiber no water very free nutrients and and so people sometimes get confused because we're bombarded by the media with you know coconut oil and olive oil and this all and I think I heard somebody I cannot remember who I pass but recently said that the the only miracle in coconut oil is that it's still on the shelves would you comment a little bit on this we don't have to expand too much because of course this is all over dr. McDougall websites and books but if you would say if you weren't sure oil is the number one cause of excess weight that that I observe the in people so this is this is how calories sneak in the side oil is so rich it's the richest caloric resource for human beings that there is oil is 4,000 calories a pound it doesn't it's pure fat so therefore it doesn't get any richer that means there are more calories in this the most possible calories in the smallest possible space and more than anything else your your satiety mechanisms rely on essentially volume how much how many how many calories do you have in what kind of space so your your designed by nature to be reading the amount of amount of proper fruit for you to be eating more or less on what we're going to call volumetrics this is all about sort of how much stretch reception there is in the system how what does the system estimate that the caloric intake that you just had is and your hunger Drive is more or less regulated by this when you take in a natural substance like oil that is exceedingly rich you can slip in if you think about this a teaspoon of water is almost immaterial in terms of you if you have literally a teaspoon of water you it impacts your hunger drive or thirst mechanisms almost not at all it's almost immaterial to any sense sensation that you would have but a teaspoon of oil is a substantial amount of calories so I don't know how many it is about 50 or 60 cowards that's phenomenal the and so a tiniest little bit of oil yet will be go essentially or very closely undetected by the system and as a result you can systematically overeat very very easily and so this is as many experiments have shown this so Barbara Rawls at Penn State University for years has done these types of experiments and I remember one experiment that was having young that we're eating as much pasta and vegetables as they wanted and they had him in a couple of different groups they added 300 calories of oil to one group's pasta and vegetable dishes they ate just as much pasta and vegetables as that as the group without the oil but they ate an additional in other words they ate until they were satisfied they ate an additional 300 calories of that meal because it came in the form of a couple of tablespoons of oil so this so the oil is says small and so compact and so slithery that people can absorb a substantial amount of extra calories and not even know it's happening so the very first place that I ever look when someone is is overweight and they're struggling and they think they're doing a good job and they can't understand why they're having a problem the first place I always look as oil and that's the first thing that needs to come out right and what about people that say that they have a very dry skin I mean you wouldn't say that you know you would take care of it externally rather than into taking in oil thinking that that's going to cause the skin you know to not be try I mean some some that's where some of the people are riding here in the chat yes I actually depends upon it's possible some people get on when they go this direction they could have an extremely low fat diet possibly and you might want to do something to increase the the the fat content in your diet that you would never use oil so you'd want to use a good source of omega-3 acids for example so you would might use walnuts you might take some flax seeds and grind them up and put them on your oatmeal in the morning in other words there's other ways to get those essential fatty acids than to use oil oil is is in principle something that you would never use it's something that you would never see in the Stone Age and it turns out that of course people really like it because it is the most concentrated caloric resource that there is so it's a super normal stimulus that has you know obviously addictive like properties and that's why it's such a fight for people to get out of it right okay let me just mention something because I think some people missed my my banner at the top here that they say there are we supposed to be discussing arthritis no I wrote it and maybe y'all some of you missed it dr. mcdougal is not available today and so we have Doug dr. Doug Lyall today as a guest and we will do the Arthritis webinar next week do you have any dr. Lisle any experience with switch into a to a whole food plant-based diet and arthritis have you seen an improvement in people's conditions oh yes I've seen dramatic improvements I've seen people with really great painful rheumatoid arthritis for example and two or three days into the 10-day program suddenly they're out of pain so these are these are things that are extraordinary I'm not going to say this is going to happen 100% of the time but I've seen it I've seen it often so the the suffering obviously our thright is what we're talking about is inflammation of the joints and so what we're trying to do is put a diet together that is very low in you know inflammatory you know products and as a result of that you know the mcdougal diet is an outstanding way to go and sometimes it's even useful to tweak it further so there are there are there's other little details that we are getting worked out and that people have learned about that can actually have people even sometimes more successful than just the first the first order change but the first order changes to get all the junk out of the diet I'd get to a healthy search center diet and very often you see rapid improvement in terms of that right aside from you know from what you were listing about not consuming oil someone else is asking here like aside from excess calories what are the other what are other disadvantages of consumption be well the I'm not sure how well known the the different the different or excuse me how well we understand the problems so for example there's two two things I would talk about a lot of oil the people use is they use it in frying and so when we fry those oils those oils are going to result in the formation of free radicals which are essentially mistakes that are going to take place in the body and it's going to contribute to the aging process etc so bad things happen when you when you heat oils like that now if you're gonna eat if you're talking about eating oils cold pouring olive oil on your salad for example what would really be wrong with that other than the fact that it's fatty and it doesn't have good things about it the there's evidence that that suggests for example that this is problematic for cardiovascular health and that this is a problem that this is going to contribute to a vascular injury so the there's plenty of reason to stay out of these products and so people shouldn't look at these things as a it's a healthy little side benefit that we're going to add to our diet you should look at them for what they are they are a highly processed totally unnatural supernormal stimulus that is highly concentrated and keeps excess weight on people and is associated with with cardiovascular damage as well as you know as when they're heated they're associated with very significant system-wide problems as well so yes oils are there's just nothing about this there's no place that we can move the camera and call these things a health food or health supporting or even health neutral because they're not right right you know dr. Lisle sometimes your microphone is touchy and making noise ology that's okay okay you might want to hold it or getting sure it's not hitting so one person was asking what what would you say to someone that wants to exercise but they're constantly in pain are there any types of exercises that someone can start in a gradual way until they stop you know the oil consumption and other things and maybe irritating their you know I'm really not maybe we're talking about somebody with arthritis is that's probably who's asking that question I am Not sure yes and so you know I'm not sure what I would tell that person that sounds like a fairly highly specific question random they need to get some expert advice about about what pain that they should be braving their way through you know with respect to what sort of exercise program and what pain they should be respecting that message and keeping away from so this is where this is where the individual analysis would be necessary right right okay could you someone's saying here would you just say a few words about binge eating yes binge eating is mostly the result there's gonna be different patterns depending upon what kind of person we're talking about and what we're looking at but essentially the the number one cause of binge eating is going to be the really rich processed foods and so what we're gonna see is the following that very rich processed foods are going to your mind recognizes that these things are really valuable so in your ability to detect calorie density is extraordinary your for example you're an apple that is not ripe may have one less calorie in that bite of Apple then a similar apple that is ripe so it might be the difference between nine calories in your mouth and 10 calories in your mouth is the difference between not liking the taste of it and spitting it out versus consuming it literally one calorie can be the difference now if you if you realize that a chocolate apple that same bite out of a chocolate Apple would be a hundred calories so realize that the Stone Age brain and its wisdom says don't eat that Apple because there's only nine calories in that bite of Apple and it says dude there's ten calories in this Apple it's right go ahead and eat this Apple and we're gonna motivate you to eat that Apple you can imagine the motivational signal that takes place when it's a hundred calories in the mouth behind a foodstuff that is ten times as concentrated as the Apple and chocolate is about ten times as concentrated as fruit so this is so we can see that this is a super normal signal that should put off shockwaves throughout the system that would tell the system to absolutely gorge on whatever this material is because it's super valuable in terms of our survival because we were designed by nature to be defending against the number one survival threat for human beings or in other animals is starvation and so as a result you are highly attuned to the calorie density in foods and you are very excited when you run into foods that are at higher calorie density and now what we've done with the modern food supply is we basically made every food essentially all foods other than the whole natural foods which are a very small percentage of human consumption essentially all foods are super normal they are highly concentrated very efficient vectors for getting high amounts of calories into people now so what is binge eating binge eating is when you get into particularly rich food and your nervous system says well we know what this is this is super valuable for our survival and not only that I believe that your mind has as more sophisticated algorithms than that I think it knows intuitively but other people in the village are going to be out to get this food so you know if there's a piece of pie just think of this in your own house if you have alpha dozen people living in your house if you have some piece of pie out there for dessert and it doesn't get finished because people cram themselves full but then there's some left over you come back out two or three hours later and you see if it's there you know you've got up to play a little video game or watch a little TV or talk to your aunt Susie and you come back down an hour and a half later and the kids have got it all it's gone so so we know intuitively though they didn't go in and raid the parents - that's not what happened okay so do we think that human beings would know this intuitively of course we would know this intuitively so as a result I believe that there's an urgency when there's very rich food around to eat it and eat it fast and go ahead and eat well past your satiety mechanisms so satiety mechanisms would be where your stomach might be naturally got 80% full typically but when there's rich food you've got extra room in there and you can cram some more in if you have to and that's exactly what that extra space is for I'm in the unlikely event that we have run into some really rich food in the Stone Age go ahead and cram it in and cram it in quickly and and vigorously before the other people in the village get more than their share and so this is this is binge eating and if we add to this a another behavior pattern which can be really exacerbate this which is the people trying to lose weight by restricting their food intake and being hungry for long stretches of time thinking that they are earning their way to lower weight by that strategy then you can see how people are going to get set up they're going to be very hungry they're going to be very impulsive and they get around rich food they're going to eat rich food very aggressively and they're going to eat it right up to the gills and so this is this is the binge eating pattern so the solution for binge eating is number one greater understanding of how weight and weight loss and weight maintenance actually occur to understand the mathematics and understand the biological process and understand that what we need to be doing is we need to be eating a low-density very starch centered diet eating to satiety and that that's something that we can trust and so people will do that and they don't go through long stretches of being hungry in order to quote be good and lose weight when they do that they are setting themselves up for a voracious binge and it's always going to be on very rich foods I suppose that I there might be one in 10,000 people that would binge on carrots and steamed kale but I have not met that person okay whenever I've talked to a binge or it's been someone who is getting into something very rich and they're getting into it oftentimes after a period of several hours of restriction because they're frustrated and they're trying to lose weight and so that this sets up a pattern that's uh it's a very sort of a self-reinforcing miniature nightmare I said the way out is to do what we're talking about all right don't rely on I think we're gonna we can fit in one more question and we'll have to close for today but we will have you back very good if you are willing to or so dr. Wilder said there's a medical student here who's asking you always say we should tell people who ask about our way of eating that we're just trying something out however I am wondering do you have any advice on addressing this issue truly in conversation without offending the other person this is a true quest for me as a medical student let's say if they if you have any advice on addressing this question truly in conversation right rather than just saying well no just try can you not be aggressive and you know preaching and trying to you know I think yesterday you were talking about being able to tell the difference between someone who was truly interested right and who doesn't really care and want to see what you say sure I think the same the same principles are involved here and when I discussed this I talked very much about that we have to be careful about what I call the esteem dynamic and so we have to be careful that the other person is essentially in a less-than position and we're in a more than position in terms of our knowledge and so we want to make sure that they we don't signal this in a way where we are looking down or we're making a permit pronouncement that it's going to set up a sort of police monitor I'm right you're wrong all observing you in the future and I'll be seeing what what is that you do dynamic between two people that that's a problem so instead what we want to do is we want to signal that our confidence in the knowledge is somewhat tentative and so if we do this this takes a lot of pressure up the situation so if I was a medical student and I knew a lot of these things and people were asking me I would say well these are some good ideas and I'm not sure that we know everything yet but this this appears to be a good direction with a lot of promise and if we say it in that way we they do not feel like they are locked into the situation where anything that you observe them do that you are going to be frowning on on that you know it's wrong and you told them no these are good ideas we're not sure we have all the answers but we think a lot of these ideas are promising and they're probably worth looking into and that's how I would talk about the situation and if they ask well what do you mean you say well looks like it looks like probably a good ideas to go towards a more plant-based lifestyle we're not sure as to what degree that should be whether it should be a hundred percent or ninety percent or eighty percent but it looks like that's a very good direction and that's a direction that I'm going and it seems to be doing well and and I think there's uh I think there's a lot of promise and as I guess maybe that would be a good point to direct them to a third party instead of you pre telling them you know give him the name of a book or tell them to go visit them on Google's website right absolutely I agree with you 100% so that's about the time when we say you know you're here's some resources that I've looked at that I was impressed by and you could see what you think and but I always keep the little hook in there but I'm not sure that you know we don't know everything and if we keep that in there it really keeps the tone of that conversation too way out out it keeps us away from the preaching situation right and it really protects those relationships and I think you can tell I mean if the conversation keeps developing in the person you can tell that they honestly want to know maybe you want to share something more but what you're saying is work for me and just just send you know telling them that all this information is out there for free and they can get it absolutely you bet all right well I wanted to mention one more thing because I think last week dr. MacDougall was saying that the this book of course this is a latest book that he and his wife Mary wrote and it is full of in the middle you have the color picture book and it's just wonderful and it's on Amazon and it's on dr. MacDougall's website and I think that this would make a great Christmas present so perhaps while you're ordering you know this will go this would go well with it so that's how you you talk to people by giving them the book and then they will come back with some questions and then you can invite them to these weekly webinars and I think that's a great way because then they don't see themselves as having to do the job of preaching and teaching they they can do what you did which is you know you sent them to a webinar or you sent them to a website or you're giving them a book and that's easy to do right you got absolute well dr. Lyle thank you again for being here today on a short short notice and next week I will be back on Thursday with the one and only dr. mcdougal to talk about arthritis and I think the following week is about kidney health a but I'm not sure but it's already posted on the undocumented go to website and I hope to see you all then and happy holidays dr. Lyle absolutely and everybody in a few weeks okay very good thank you cassava alright thank you everyone bye-bye
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