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Gustavo Tolosa: Dr Doug Lisle, PhD Anxiety and Panic Attacks, QA Session
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I am Gustavo Tolosa here in Dallas Texas and I am here every Thursday at 11 a.m. Pacific time I am the host of the dr. McDougall live webinars only that today we have a very special guest that we have had a few times and that you all love to see and hear and his name is dr. Doug Lyall he's the psychologist for the mcdougal wellness program and the director of research for True North health center and of course he has impressive biography that I will not read to you all but you can of course visit his website at steam dynamics org which I will type in a minute so that you can see it and read about him dr. Lyle has lectured at Stanford Cornell and other universities and he is the co-author of the pleasure trap mastering the hidden force that undermines health and happiness a wonderful book he is also the founder of steam dynamics and you can go to his website and read about that and also you can have scheduled an appointment with him I have had the pleasure of meeting him in person several times and I can humbly say that he's a good friend of mine now and I can tell you all that he is one of the most brilliant minds and I mean it that I have met and 15-20 minutes with him can really make a difference in your life so I really encourage you to go to his website his fees are very very reasonable and very worth it I really want to encourage you to make an appointment with him a private session that you can do online anyway so today we have a interesting topic we did a few weeks ago a webinar on anxiety and panic attacks I would recommend that you all go back to the website dr. McDougall calm and then you watch it again because there is just incredible amounts there of information that you must hear and sometimes we have to hear it several times to process it there are I'm sure answers to your questions there but today is the same topic it's just today it is entirely a Q&A session many of you have already submitted questions so I will read those first and then if we have time I will read the questions that you are typing in the chat box so now without further ado I would like to welcome dr. Lyle how are you dr. Lyle in California great to see here that's all very good thank you thank you the class always a pleasure to see you and have some time to talk about important issues so are you ready to just jump in with the questions you're always ready very good very good so let me see here if I can get the questions that people have submitted and here's the first one hold on just a minute let me get that here my sister suffers from anxiety and panic to the point where she can barely leave her house she starts every day with a big cup of coffee with sugar and ends the day with a half a bottle of wine don't caffeine and alcohol make this disorder worse yes they do so what let's talk just a little bit about this what what caffeine is is it's effectively gonna cause a rise in adrenaline and more or less that's what a panic attack is it's a big rise of adrenaline so the poppy is not helping vii sometimes people will we'll use that in an interesting way and that is if they're a little edgy and they drink coffee it gives them a reason to understand why they're edgy and so it can it can quiet down the brain search or I wonder why I'm kind of jittery because now I know I can search in my mind and say oh must be the coffee and so in a in a funny way that can give people some relief but it's actually amping them up and then of course the alcohol at the end of the day is just because she is still anxious and has more adrenaline than she can use in order to get to sleep and so that she's using alcohol but knock yourself out because that's basically a sedative so this is uh that the problem is is that then then you don't sleep so well as you don't sleep actually a natural recovery sleep without all you will sleep that you won't you won't go through the normal sleep cycles so then you're going to wake up kind of wiped out not as not as healthy and sound mentally and as a result you're more edgy because you're a little bit more vulnerable and you know it intuitively and then we start the whole cycle again so certainly those things aren't helping but the biggest the biggest thing that that your sister needs to know is she needs to maybe watch my webinar that we did last time about anxiety panic attacks because this is I've had several people contact me and my and I've gone through half an hour an hour session since that webinar and what's it what's interesting to me is I feel like that webinar is really quite comprehensive and explaining things but it's interesting how people need to hear it again the basic process is this that the we need to understand sort of a pretty deep level that a panic attack or anxiety attack is actually nothing other than a natural defence that you have against predators and so therefore it's very much like if a doctor I can remember I went to doctor once when I was worried that I had a bad ankle injury and that doctor was an orthopedic surgeon and he grabbed my ankle started twisting it and I was looking at him like hey hey that's really bad don't you could injure me and he started chuckling he's like I know what I'm doing I'm not going to injure you I'm checking on the situation and and I could remember starting to relax a little bit even though I wasn't I didn't fully trust him and of course I could have trusted him but I didn't because he was causing the very thing it caused me so much pain and then he said look your ankles actually going to be fine nothing's torn so he knew and then then the pain that I had been experiencing was not anxiety provoking from then on out in other words he just said be careful you're gonna be fine in about a month and I'm like okay now I can quit worrying whereas for the previous two or three weeks I was very worried that I had a injury that was going to require surgery or something big in the same way when people have panic attacks they they are very much aided by understanding that the panic attack is not something wrong with them it in fact is it is a biological defense against predators and once you understand that that's what it is it can very much take the edge off of it just like that because you understand and then of course the most important thing after that is to understand that we make ourselves break the freeze that we have as a prey animal when you're in a panic Tech you feel frozen and you feel present because you're designed by nature to freeze to make sure that the Predators don't see any movement so if you break the freeze and you start to use your big muscles you know jog in place or just contract muscles if you're in a social situation if you do this over and over again you will actually be processing your way through the panic attack and it will end very quickly so I would encourage the this person to have your sister watch this webinar and then have her try it you know just once just try it in because believe me once a panic attack starts that they will typically last for an hour and the person will be very uncomfortable is it essentially sits and waits for the big cat to leave where your hiding places okay so you will sit there for an hour as that tiger you know lounges around in the grass and you are designed by nature to not move a muscle until that thing leaves that is a horrendous state to be if you get up and start moving and bring on the crisis effectively and then find out that there's no predator that's going to get you you will move through this process in a matter of a few minutes and you'll have tremendous relief and this is the way we start bringing apart this problem right and you explained it in detail in the last webinar so like you said it would be good for people to we watch it this is a question that comes from a first grade school teacher and wondering what your thoughts are on how food affects anxiety she says I know that I've seen a few webinars where you say that ingesting some sugar and flour is okay maybe they're not even addictive about she says once a month when we have our classroom birthday party and serve cake I see an instant behavioral change the loud aggressive children get more riled up and the anxious children get more aggressive yes probably that's not the food it's what this is going to be is this the social situation has changed and so there's a sudden celebratory process going on and as a result of that the the rules of the social expectations have shifted and essentially school's out okay and when school is out boys start running around and yelling and and then all it takes is one one to sort of break the frame and as soon as the frame is broken then there's all kinds of imitators and everybody starts jumping in so one thing that's very interesting just to to sort of capture this so that you understand it is that all of us know what it feels like to I'm trying to think of the situation where you can be in an elevator and if you're in an elevator everybody's kind of be a little bit tense because you have to you're in a constrained space and then as soon as you leave the elevator you can feel a relaxation and there's many situations like this you can be I watch this for example at a Google advanced study weekend so for 50 minutes people are listening to a lecturer and they're actually having strain their behavior they may be wanting to turn talk to their friend they may want to roll their eyeballs they may want to get up and leave but there's a social expectation to just sit right where you are and do what you're doing and then as soon as it's over we break the frame and then pretty soon everybody's talking like crazy their neighbors and their friends they're getting on their cell phone and it's like there's a suddenly the lid is left off it is off the pot and this is human nature so what what she's actually observing is that there's been a lid on these kids and then when you do the birthday thing the lids off and so that's what you're actually observing you're not observing the effect of the food you're observing the effect of the social expectations of the situation yes all right very good thank you that that actually makes a lot of sense a very short question here I love chocolate but it see of course I love it there I love chocolate but it seems to make my anxiety worse it's not really possible yeah I don't think so I don't I don't think that that's really doing much of anything I want people people by nature will look for patterns and they will they will then if they're looking if they ever hear about a about a contingency or a pattern they will start to see it and so if I told people today you know what it's been shown that that there's more red Toyota's you know then there are red of other cars then people would start to see that contingency and they'd say no I've seen it and this these are this is what actually Daniel Kahneman and Amos Tversky were a pair of social cognition psychologists fundamentally at Berkeley and Amos Tversky was at Stanford and for many many years they collaborated together on trying to understand how it is that human beings come to make these inferences and actually Tversky bounced away and finally and then Daniel Kahneman was the one of two that went on to win the Nobel Prize so he's the only psychology than history Deborah won a Nobel Prize yeah and for their work in understanding these processes about how is the people come to make the inferences that they make and one of the reasons why people see things the way they see them is for what what condiment diversity called the availability heuristic which is that once you have it in your mind and it's easy to observe a an event consistent with that then you see the contingency so all we take was the notion the chocolate is kind of bad thing and that anxiety is something that I don't like and the sort of chocolate causes some bad things in my body and then that's all it takes yeah that's all it takes for people to then essentially wrap up theory around that and then they see the contingency so this was very important information that great insights on condiment diversity sparked to understand how we wind up with essentially incorrect inferences about what is causing what and these are notorious in psychology and you know thousand of them have been have been observed and this would be one of them so the chocolates not causing your anxiety any worse it may cause the stomach to be able to weren't comfortable but that's about it right right okay very good very good I know someone is asking if you could describe the how the symptoms of an entire of a panic attacks closely mimic a heart attack but you described that in a very much in detail in the last webinar so please I will type it here but just go to dr. McDougall calm and go to the webinar page and they find out the anxiety and panic attack webinar from last time it's a it would if we have time maybe we can do it at the end but it would be kind of I don't want to say a waste of time because it's never waste but we would rather and go ahead and answer questions today so another question is I was out on ten milligram lexapro for panic disorder and it stopped my panic attacks I have made many unsuccessful attempts to get off the drugs by lowering those slowly over several months but every time I get down to two point five milligrams my panic attacks return what are your thoughts oh I think I would I would say the following and and that is that you have two point five milligrams of lexapro if if that has you in a stasis and you are doing well then I wouldn't be telling people this is a terrible thing etc in other words I'm pretty practical about how I approach these things I would I would also though I think I think people are better off without without any medications in general and I'm not going to say that that's are going to be a hundred percent true but I I think it's close so I would I would suggest that it's very unlikely the person that's asking this question has ever approached a panic attack in the way that I've described okay so I would suggest it that you would at some point want to roll that lexapro down very very low to the point where you start having panic attacks and then and essentially challenge the panic attacks in the way that I'm describing and panic attacks have a very strong tendency to be essentially a classically conditioned king where where once you've had one you are hypersensitive to the adrenaline Rises which are associated then with anxiety so that so once you've had one it's you yourself become the source of the environmental stimulus which then causes another panic attack and that is your own sensitivity to your own adrenalin rising and so as a result of this when she started to get command of the fact that adrenaline rising does not have to cause a panic attack all it needs to do is for you to start drumming in place and using your big muscles and then you process your way through the very first panic attack in a very different way what can then have is so you can start to break apart the condition so the next time you start to have the adrenaline wise your mind is not as intimidated by this and you are essentially you may never have a second panic attack as a result of this or if you do you process your way through that one and by the time we essentially attack and challenge we're horrified panic attacks in a row then what happens is is that the the contingency between adrenaline wise and panic attacks starts to break apart okay it's basically like if you every time you go to the refrigerator you feed your cat a treat and you keep doing that and then that means every time you go to the refrigerator that cats running after you you know and squalling but then if you don't do it if you go to the refrigerator and then sometimes don't feed the cat well you consistently don't feed the cat but by the time you do that 15 or 20 times that cat is not as excited and demanding happy when you go to the refrigerator if you never feed the cat again when you go there so as a result you break apart the pattern and then the system changes okay and so that's I would prefer that someone challenge these panic attacks and if that's the only thing that's the big thing that's keeping the person on the lexapro I would hope that we would be able to step around that problem and maybe defeat the whole thing and not have to be on lexapro which would be the ideal situation right but that would be the idea for dr. Lyle Byrne I think this is a very interesting question I've actually wondered this myself someone asks are there specific foods like greens or starch that can help keep anxiety at bay or is it all about cognitive thinking and maintaining a good routine that reduces stress yeah I know I don't think the food is a big deal yes sir everybody this is food it's like unbelievably important for your health so it's really important for your cardiovascular system and it's important for your cancer and its support for your type-2 diabetes and it's support for your weight management and it's important for everything under the Sun when it comes to your physical health but it's not having that the founder and act on your on your mind okay so it can in the sense that there's going to be indirect ways where food can be having a huge impact so if a person has sleep apnea because they've got too much fat and they're suffocating themselves then effectively the food is indirectly causing tremendous mental problems okay but these situations are quite indirect and so we need to we need to understand again because we're a food place and we are incredibly interested in the connection between food and health that people that come to me are already have this sort of Kahneman and Tversky linked about the fact that you know doesn't food cause the autism doesn't food cause the depression doesn't the food cause my anxiety test doesn't the food cause my boyfriend and I you know be that happy with me it's like now it doesn't okay so the food is great to do a great job with the food so you feel better in your life like here here's a connection here's another indirect connection if you if you exercise you feel not only to dissipate stress that will have an impact on your psychology very directly interesting it out so if you do that then you're more likely to eat better you're more likely need better you feel better now you're not likely to you but a junk food if you eat a bunch of junk food you don't feel so good about yourself then you're probably not going to exercise well if you don't exercising you're eating junk food then you're also less likely to sleep as well okay so it's going to turn out that if you read a bunch of salty junky food and you're not exercise and you don't sleep as deeply in as well well now you're sort of more fatigued and etc so you're just not feeling these good so all of these things contribute to your mental well-being is it possible that this could be associated with anxiety all of that maybe it's more likely that that exercise for example directly far more than any food content is going to have a bigger impact on on on anxiety in general because it is through exercise that we are dissipating adrenaline and and also probably going through a very mild in prints that we know we are in better physical condition and therefore more able to respond to challenges in the environment so this is a very subtle low-grade inference that is going on that probably influences our self-confidence and reduces anxiety right that's very good thank you that fine and another question here by some another listening can dr. Lisle address how to get off antidepressants miss I realize he prolly isn't supposed to get medical item heists and I need to actually speak to my doctor when I decide to do this but yes I guess he's just saying hey dude can you say anything of course I think okay so what I would say is I would buy a book by dr. Peter Breggin called psychiatric drug withdrawal and I would read that book before I talk to my doctor because you talk to your doctor where you're gonna be sort of telling the doctor rather than asking move it often in other words can be gently saying this is what my plan is and I'm planning to do this and I need your assistance to sort of step down in this way and so the notion is is they we go down very slowly we take our time some doctors are different some doctors want to do it much more quickly it's not like I haven't seen people get off antidepressants in a month I have however I've also seen them put up with a lot of anxiety and stress and a lot of side effects of having pulled the rug out from under their brain that quickly so it's not that it can't be done and if you get it that's fine you know so people out there that it may have done that that sort of thing so it's not like it's impossible it's just that it's laced with risk and the risk isn't that some important something horrible is going to happen the risk is that the person will go into a withdrawal and they will be very anxious and depressed and then they will go back on the medication thinking that they cannot get off the medication so I'm saying so this is the problem so we would rather move very slowly and very surely then quickly because we're only going to do this once and once you're off at your office so yes dr. Bergin split psychiatric drug withdrawal is that is the book that I would use to educate myself before I talk to my daughter about this very good very good thank you for providing that name of that book can you repeat one more time the name of the booth it's psychiatric drug withdrawal by Peter Breggin er eg Geim yes very good really yes what is your opinion on the connection between panic attack symptoms and hyperventilation well the hyperventilation is a it's it's a very similar you know can be some very similar part of this this process so in the same way hyperventilation some panic attacks will result in in people hyperventilating that's not very common but it can happen and as a result sometimes people's balances of things can get off enough that they may faint you dive in and if they faint this is this is not a crisis you know you're starting to hyperventilate just get near the floor you know the worst thing that's going to happen is that you you may you may pass out and then you will be fine so however a good mood if a person starts to hyperventilate is to actually do exactly what I would say which is to start to move the big muscles start to move the big muscles you will start to have oxygen demands that are now consistent with the hyperventilating that you're doing and then you won't wind up with a whole imbalance situation that could lead opinion so this is a the same the same strategy it is useful so you you but if you start to get faint just get closer to the floor no problem you'll you'll survive you're not going to die of a panic attack and you're not going to die a type of English the only thing that can be very serious if you faint when you're when you are higher up you could call and hit your head and that could be very bad so just get low and you'll be fine one of the strangest things that you'll see in life you'll see you at the movies is you'll see if a person bane sir goes on the ground everybody's in such a rush to get him back up everybody's like oh my god get them out there's no reason to get people up the ground is in a very good place to be if you're in trouble you know that's why you're that's why you head for the ground just there's no there's no disaster if somebody's on the ground some little old lady faints everybody's like well help her out huh more up down help her up let her just sit right there okay the the entire system is designed to try to optimize your likelihood of survival you just let that little lady sit on the ground or lie there for a little while and take her sweet time and that's the same way you treat yourself and so no rush no panic well on the ground or on the ground no harm done right so there's actually because what you said if I had read somebody typing here in the chat BOTS um someone typed something about faint and so that's actually possible then connecting connected with that with a incident with a panic attack yeah one of the old strategies for hyperventilating is you're a person that's that consistently then we you know if this is some sort of a characteristic of them they will tell to carry along a paper bag and to breathe into a paper bag because they are essentially over oxygenated and by breathing into paper bag and breathing you know in and out of a bag itself you essentially increase the carbon dioxide levels and then you stabilize the system rare it's a rare incident for an individual to have that situation and if they do by the time they manage it a couple of times with a paper bag successfully they'll start to break the part essentially the panic that drives that but long before we get there were in a panic attack and the and what we need to do in that panic attack is break the freeze and start marching start moving the big muscles in your legs start essentially running from the predator and if we do that this will start to break the park assistant very good I thought that lion just a minute ago you mentioned the book and I and I have it here this is this okay and I typed it here in the chat BOTS anybody wants to get that book alright another question here is have you had success in patience using methods to slow and deep in deepening I guess breathing when experiencing symptoms yes you know it's interesting this is a standard treatment and sometimes successful so if you can have mild anxiety sometimes people will be able to catch themselves because what they'll start to do is they'll start to restrict their breathing and the reason I believe they're restricting their breathing is because adrenaline is causing them to want to hold their breath because by holding your breath your raise your blood pressure by raising the blood pressure you will drive blood away from the viscera out into big muscles so the restriction of breathing is actually part of the defense system of a predator the defense system that is actually getting you ready to run for your life now some some therapists will say well what we're going to do is we're going to stop that process from happening and this is a little bit this is sort of dicey business where you're starting to have an adrenaline why's starting to constrict your breathing but though the system tends to be a redundant set of signals that that essentially cascade on themselves so as you as you start to restrict the breathing you start to feel more panicky and as you feel more manically a lot of other things from happening heart rate is increasing because it's getting ready to run and use more blood you're getting very antsy and wanting to move but you also feel frozen you're also searching around for the predator so you're trying to figure out what's happening and you can't figure it out so your mind is racing that's a lot that's happening yeah so obviously one technique that the world of psychology has come up with is to try to have people regulate their breathing essentially try to stop it at that point with that particular system and try to get them to breathe easier and more deeply etc now I have not found out to be effective for people because this is going exactly counter to the essentially hormonal cascade that is going on behind the drum so what I tend to find that once they got horses out of the barn we're not going to like push it back in the barn by trying to relax and be be breathing yeah I do think that people actually practice this in sort of a meditative fashion that they maybe get really good at stopping it really lumen okay as it barely starts to feel an adrenaline wise and they start to feel themselves constricting their breathing a little bit they may well be able to then go into a well practiced deep breathing process essentially calms that system down before before it wisest I haven't working people extensively enough with that technique to find out how how applicable it is to how many people my my experience has been that most people with panic disorder or major anxiety it's pretty forceful and we're probably not going to be able to nip it in to bed very easily so my my success with this my success is the patient success but the success of a more bold and counterintuitive treatment like using the big muscles yeah it seems to be very effective and that's what I would recommend people do post it's not like I wouldn't tell them hey not might not be a bad idea to practice relaxing breathing but I don't think that's likely to be else as aggressively successful and then so that's that's what I think about that right right okay thank you I know that in the previous webinar you talked about medication and if they're really helpful and safe and you also talked about when they might be prescribed or not and if they're and then you talked about non medication treatment and other things so we're not going to talk about that today and I will put here in the chat session the link to your webinar but somebody's asking a more I guess besides a question and so this one says what can you do about Hashimoto's and anxiety yeah she murders thyroiditis that's a what you're having is that fibroid there's a thyroid condition it's an autoimmune disease and so as a result the thyroid is is not very consistent and how it works and so therefore people can get anxieties as a result of essentially systemic waves of imbalances that are taking place hormonal E as a result of having a disorder and so I I know I can't tell you the emotion widows you would want to have the Hashimoto's treated as intelligently as possible I believe we have by the way success with Hashimoto's quite quite good success here at Turner health center with the use of water fasting so I think it's useful for people that may separate from Hashimoto's that may be responding only so so with respect to a healthy diet there is another tool than you in the door which is water fasting and I would encourage people to contact True North health center and email dr. Goldhamer about about that if they're they're interested and they want to deal with this but when it comes to the anxiety postulate is it's going to be such a rare process I've never treated anybody who came in to me and said I opossum Eddowes and I have this issue I have wound up treating people that were not successful with my strategy and in the two cases that I had in my career where people were not successful with the strategy it turned out in both cases they had unusual physiological irregularities that were causing unusual physiological responses that were then cascading into panic okay so Hashimoto's would be would be one of those interestingly enough people would improve but they didn't here's the issue you can manage a panic attack with this same strategy because you know whether no matter what's causing it even if you have a physiological cause that that's for example a hearty regular it sort of cascades us into a panic attack you can still use the very same strategy which is to contract and use the big muscles to process your way through the panic attack but it may never break up the conditioning paradox so you'll haven't won another six weeks from now you'll have another one six weeks from now whereas most people that have strictly panic disorder that is nothing other than a condition process behind once having how to panic attack and then we've got a chain of them those people tend to get rid of them and either get rid of them forever or get rid of them or enormous long list a time for one day prop up again so so with Hashimoto's the person that's asking that I would do exactly what I do tell anybody to do except I wouldn't expect it to essentially break that up and so that you don't ever see it again alright I'm very good thank you so much let's see if about this here what's the best actually let's turn the tables her and say that I am with a person this is one of the questions I am with a person that is I can see that it's starting to get a panic attack what what's the best way to calm down the person I mean I if I don't have you there start look in their knees in the marked okay Adam starts stand light up and start looking in fact if they're in good enough condition you know it's a little old lady and she's fifty pounds overweight she can't jog in place because it beats you look too hard for her physically but if it's a person that is in recent physical condition the best thing they can do is to start jogging in place and jogging and drawing a jog till we get tired they'll get tired in about 20 seconds and then they'll want to sit down okay and then when they sit down they'll be breathing deeply which is exactly what the other therapeutic model is but this way we caused it by actually causing an oxygen debt as a result of using the big muscles so then when you start to breathe deeply and and you start to relax the muscles the brain starts winning inferences that says predator must be gone or we wouldn't stop running okay so this is a very important cascade that starts to get limited and persons still anxious which they probably will because they got plenty of adrenaline then you get up out of the chair and you run again for another 20 seconds then you get tired and sit down so you do this about six seven times and within a few minutes the panic attack will deescalate so that if it's happening right now fantastic there's nothing better than having it happen right now if you're right there nobody's going to die have a panic attack this is nothing other than a front of your defense so get up out of their chair which they don't want to do because they are present they're frozen they're in a freeze with it with a with a big African lion eighty yards away and their system says don't move and yet they're panicking okay that's what that big adrenaline wise ascend so what you need to do is force yourself up out of that chair even though you feel like you can't but you can get up out of that chair is weaken the knees as you are and you don't want to move because you're don't want the predator to see you and get up and start jogging in place once that happens the system says oh my god we're in this there's no way out now he sees me okay and you start to run and as you start to jog in place you will start you know by 20 seconds later you will recognize your brain will recognize we're not in that much trouble there is no predator suddenly I'm feeling tired yeah what a joke that is you're not even closed at your capacity you could run 10 times faster or ten times longer if there's a real predator your adrenaline is not that high okay it's just high enough to be very uncomfortable but if you get up and process yourself our way through that adrenaline then when you sit down you will feel much better even after the first jog and you'll tremendously better out there the third of the board and we will break apart that system and we're all away that's how we do it right all right thank you yes that's how you do it even if you have moderate anxiety doesn't have to be a panic attack you can just be a little nervous about you know about I don't know meeting your new brother-in-law and it's like problem just go out behind by the edge of the building and then jogging plates for about 15 seconds and then catch your breath and then walk in there and you'll be much less anxious so it doesn't require a panic attack to use this this can be used in in any circumstances oh great okay now we know what to do dr. liya have you ever heard someone here is asking if you have ever heard of dr. Clair weeks the nervous disorder pioneer from Australia no haven't ya I'm not I'm not that not that knowledgeable in the area of anxiety this is this is just my own personal technique that I went in it lost about twenty years ago and it this is a this is a sort of a derivative is Falls very very reasonably out of human natural industry and so I came up with this I have now since found out that other people use this and they've discovered this independently so top it's not my own it was my own original intention to me that it's been in people okay surprisingly not a commonly used technique alright and so and I think that's because people aren't thinking of it as predator defense they're thinking of it as you know something that you have to learn how to breathe easier and think clots that are just right exactly this is it's not quite following a straight cognitive behavioral analysis won't necessarily arrive at this solution and so it has not arrived at the solution and yet the solution is is remarkably effective right and so yes no there's a lot of research I'm aware of some of the research out there in the world on inside very good dr. Lisle I know that we're having probably just a couple of sites left and I just want to put one more question in someone is type in how are depression and anxiety related if they are related yes there's not really related that close but they are somewhat related they would serve we were to look at moods in general so the average mood of person we're gonna find at that mood at any one moment runs the gamut from depression all the way to boredom and so we're gonna now look at this we're going to look at this I'm going to take this in the following way so depression is where your confidence that you're going to be successful is very low anxiety is one step up where you are your confidence that you may may be able to make this work that you probably won't and it's very scary okay stress is the word we use to describe one notch above that where it's like 50/50 if you can you might be able to do this but it's going to take really a lot of effort on your part excitement is we're we're pretty sure we're going to be successful but we're not sure we're going to be successful and then boredom is where we're a hundred percent sure we're going to successful so this is on a continuum of perceived probability of success math also against the importance so let's look at a Super Bowl okay so no team gets to the Super Bowl and says wow I'm really depressed because I think we're gonna lose no that's not how they vehicle they feel like they've got a good chance okay so are they anxious sort of anxious they're they're really they're more stressed than they are anything else they are feeling like we have to work really hard their anxiety is a symptom it starts to indicate that the best move is to avoid it the best move is the avoid the predator the best move is the avoid the brother-in-law the best move is to avoid the speech the best move is to walk off the stage and not face it you know etc anxiety is an avoidance reaction that says we may not be able to handle this okay so stress is I can probably handle it and I might win and I might lose and it's going to take everything I've bought because it's right on the line that's what that football team feels at the Super Bowl because they're about there basically they know they're essentially as good as the other team and the difference of winning and losing is going to be how hard they work at some critical decisions that they make that's stress a student that knows they need an a but they're working really hard and they've got names before and they think that they can get it but they're not sure they're gonna get it that's stress okay excitement is when it looks like you're gonna you're gonna be successful okay so now we're two touchdowns ahead of the Superbowl we're really excited oh my god I think we're gonna win yeah boredom is San Francisco 49ers back in Steve Young stayed there up like 35 nothing at halftime everybody shutting off the TV set like nobody cares this thing's going to blow up at halftime it's actually boring at this point okay so this is human life it goes from depression anxiety to stress to excitement and then to boredom and it's all about the perceived probability of success or depression is very low perceived probability anxiety is low stress is medium excitement is high and boredom is a hundred percent when you were a little kid and you were stressed about learning how to tie your shoelaces okay if you're only so-so at it and your mom said oh look at Billy you can tie your shoelaces now in front of a bunch of people you were anxious you were like I'm not sure I can do it not under this pressure right now I could I could look that so but then when everybody was gone and you were just doing it yourself you were stressed because you weren't sure you could do it as soon as you started to pull that strings through and you can see that you're gonna make it you can start to feel excitement like although I got it Sam saying fifteen years later you're born there's no excitement at all and whether you can tie your shoelaces or not because you're perceived probability success is hundred-percent so the relationship between depression anxiety is the fact that they are they're both reactions to the perceived probability success of important things depression is simply that you are quite certain that you are not going to be successful so you feel defeated and then feeling a defeat is causing you to stop putting energy into the idea that's what it is stop the ad campaign stop the plan to be an NBA player stop the relationship because it looks like it's not going to work this is what the Russians the question is essentially throwing in the towel and saying that strategy for that goal is not going to work anxiety isn't quite there anxiety is I don't think it's going to work and so that's how this that's how they are related but they are and that's why they can co-occur in other words you can bounce from depression to anxiety and depression through anxiety and all the way up to stress and then back down to anxiety you can that can happen in five minutes just talking to a consultant well I'm not sure that you can do this I probably think you can't oh now I'm depressed but it turns out we get a break here that may work oh really the back and forth your nervous system is not stuck in a slot you can look like it is but it's actually a fluid movement along this gradient of your perceived probability of success and that's how that works very good well brilliant as always the doctor Alya we all appreciate it very much I know that there are many other questions left but please watch this webinar which has been recorded and you will receive a replay link and please watch dr. Lyons previous webinar that is some dog from Arturo's website and again I want to encourage everybody to talk to dr. Lyle on a 1-1 maybe even 30 minute session your website if I'm correct dr. Lyle is esteem dynamics org right that's correct very good very good anything else you would like to say about how it works to schedule a session with you or how long it is for anything like that all right thoughts great board it's just like talking to me like you and I are talking and I'm really good you know I I'm always happy to do that I've got a certain number hours set aside every week for that so I always be as helpful as I can excellent very good next week everyone we have dr. MacDougall back and he's going to talk about a very popular topic which is elevated blood pressure and/or high blood pressure and so I encourage you all to go to his website and register for this webinar and you can submit questions we will see you next week thank you again dr. Lyle and hopefully we will see you the second Tuesday in November well that's kind of our our date every second Tuesday of the month have a great weekend and everybody else have a great weekend goodbye everyone bye-bye you
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