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well good evening everybody this Nate G along with dr. Doug Lyall with beat your genes podcast dr. Wilde how you doing today good good good to see you again excellent ok today's show is called what will the future look like and I titled it what will the future look like because a couple of weeks ago dr. Lila you and I were talking on the phone and I just casually asked you what do you think that you know what will human life look like in a thousand years and as you do I was expose hoping that you'd say that that that you know life is going to be grand and we're going to have all these all these you know innovations and you did you did say that you explained a lot of really fun stuff I've been fascinated ever since about what you think the future will look like and I was a little disappointed because I thought man where were you when the dot-com bubble was breaking it was bursting and where were you when Yahoo and Google and all those places were taking off so we're going to talk about Dallas yeah well with that with broke broke with no money to invest oh wow such is life alright as you get a told yeah but we're going to we're going to talk over an article that one of our listeners sent us called it's called the rise of the bromance threatening heterosexual relationships worn social scientists and then we're going to go over a question from one of our listeners about the primary goal of humans and what our next evolution will will look like now before we go that we have a go to that we have a caller who's on who's been on hold this is Dan from New Hampshire so Dan welcome to show you're on with dr. Lyle hey holy goin ah first of all I love the podcast and uh dr. Lyle I love the pleasure trap literally changed my life that was exactly what I needed at the time that I picked it up so I just I'm honored to be talking to you it's a pleasure absolutely all right what's up and what are we working on what are we trying to get better yeah so on I am glad that I was able to find um your your take and you know everything discussed on this podcast and how its rooted in science and evolutionary psychology and it's in it's a lot more rigid and you know tangible than some of the self development type stuff I'd got myself wrapped up into for a couple errors before that on and so that said I I was actually kind of mired in some struggles with Dom not only like drugs or anything but like a binge eating disorder and a porn addiction and it was just kind of a mess and I think in large part from understanding the way you explain the dynamics of addiction and all that I've got myself out of that but now I'm kind of wondering you know I know this podcast is called beat your jeans and not just adhere to your jeans and I was curious to know if you had any thoughts on basically I'm a very like creative artistic guy and I think I'm very talented specifically musically and I know you know biologically the purpose of life is just being replication as you've explained it but I'm finding that I'm kind of you know a ship without a breeze in the ocean here like now that I've kind of got some my basics covered um if that really the purpose of life was just to reproduce and it wasn't to do anything ran with your passions and your creative pursuits do the stance on that like what yes you should head yeah let's talk about this the the so the concept here is that the biological purpose of life is to reproduce genes and so it's through that lens that we can understand both the physical and psychological architecture of all animals including humans so so we essentially what we do is we can look at human behavior and ie the motivations behind it and the feelings that accompany it and we can reverse-engineer why those features happen to exist inside the species as opposed to other so so instead of being fascinated with eucalyptus leaves which were not the way a koala bear is we know that if we're not fascinated with them it's probably not part and parcel of human human evolutionary history now the so we have to keep two separate issues in mind what we're trying to do here is we're trying to enjoy the daylights out of your existence we we face mortality with our eyes wide open and we realize that in all probability there isn't anything after this this is all the time you've got you don't know how much time there is and we're not going to get caught in a trap of trying to do something quote lasting because that's a joke the it's not lasting and nobody cares and so you don't want to have has spent your life trying to be so outstanding at some great deed that they have a statue of you in a park somewhere in Spain and two centuries from now and some birds crapping on the top of that statue we don't care okay now so we're not going to fall for a trap that I call the hill-climbing trap of trying to do something so grand that the whole world knows your name and that they're bowing down to your legacy you know in the village 100 years from now who cares our focus should be on the present and the context of your life and then the emotions that flow through your nervous system between now and the day you die so our job is to enjoy this existence now question is how do we do it and the answer to that question is going to be complicated and it's going to have a few principles that are worth being aware of and one of those is that your engineering is going to be part parcel of this in the sense that many of the things the way you were engineered to enjoy things is largely the fact that if you did those things with gusto they resulted in more genes being reproduced so when you have a feeling about wanting to do something grand to do something brilliantly well there's nothing in principle along with that in fact it's part of your design and what you're trying to do is you're trying to actually figure out a ecological niche in the marketplace of human enjoyments and human values in other words people enjoy arts they enjoy dancing and singing and storytelling and etc new art form in early 20th century was movies the and so they're they're going to there's certain things that human beings enjoy and they also not surprisingly people enjoy creating them so they are not only they're not only consumers of these these arts they are also producers of the arts and they like both sides of it now the you tend to like things mercifully where you have where you are relatively strong with them that's partially because you get good feedback from other people about it and you tend to be disinterested in things that you are that you are pathetic at okay so the relative to other people that isn't always true but it tends to be the case because you're designed by nature to be partly interested part of your excitement about anything is the fact that unbeknownst to you there's little neural connections down deep in your soul about anything that are connected to the survival and reproductive benefits that you are apparently accruing when you are pursuing these things so if you're pretty good at drawing pictures and the girls in the sixth grade are willing and eyeing at your drawing ability then that's you probably like to draw anyway and now you're going to keep drawing and keep drawing and keep drawing as long as we're doing a gnawing and a few years from now if they start taking their clothes off you may be drawing until your last day on earth okay so the point here is that you weren't designed to to be thinking and worrying particularly you're not designed to be thinking about your reproductive success you're designed actually you certainly think about sex and plot and plan that you're not really thinking about reproduction particularly you're thinking about sex however you are also designed to enjoy the competitive processes of producing displays that the opposite sex in particular or even other people same sex would find fascinating on spiring and admirable so it isn't that we say well gee what's the point of this whole thing anyway it's just a bunch of genes and it's sitting in a vehicle and it dies no there's no existential crisis here the what we have here is a very interesting challenge and the challenge is now that we know that what how the game is wired up we actually know its purpose our job now is to say fine okay probably as a result of that being the purpose there's probably some traps in it and so we're going to try to avoid the traps while we actually harvest the potential that sits inside the organism for enjoyment our job is to look at your nervous system like an extraordinary board game a video game and our job is to actually hit those circuits brilliantly to try to have an optimal life experience now most people will just follow their instincts in fact that's all they will do is follow their instincts and that's fine no problem and depending upon which what set of cards life deals to them they will pretty much do a so-so job of playing those cards so if some guy is average attractive average smart lives in an average town he'll probably wind up with an average job or an average wife and average pair of kids and an average life experience and if it turns out that he's in you know the Sudan it's going to be lousy because that's a bad set of circumstances for this this particular ape but if it turns out that he's in San Diego he's probably going to have a pretty decent life not bad now our job is to take that life which would be at the fiftieth percentile for the general populations you know abilities and experience there in the United States and we're going to try to move the needle north and so we're going to try to actually behave smarter and we're going to try to do things in such a way that we have a greater life experience one of the life characteristics of a human life experience that will make it excellent is something that you made you made mention of this when you're describing a little bit of your sort of puzzlement about what this all means the truth of the matter is one of the really cool things to do is to take the gloves off roll up your shirt sleeves and really take a run at doing things just as well as you could possibly do them to try to do a really great job okay why well for one thing is that your own internal audience is watching your efforts and it's watching how hard your how how well and how diligently you are actually pursuing some competitive processes and those competitive processes had to do with you trying to do things that the village is going to find valuable now that may be frivolous ie you're going to be an actor and I don't know the road to Rio you know whatever it is so that could be that or you could be trying to find the cure for cancer but whatever it is you're trying to compete with other people that are trying to to do that same hit that those same human values and that same basic socio ecological niche and so they have they have the similar tasks that you have and there's nothing in the world wrong with and in fact there's much right about the idea of pursuing excellence and trying to do a superb job the now what we're not going to do is we're not going to try to be a world champion not unless that comes with unbelievable benefits and and comes easily enough to us but it just so happens to be a side effect of us doing something very well at a pace and with an amount of our life budget that makes sense the reason why we want want to keep things like this budget in budgets or what I'd call in balance is because it would be for example if you if you're if your next-door neighbor had an organic strawberry farm and they would keep coming over and bringing you strawberries they could be really really good but the thing is you only want about four or five of them a day that after that you don't really like them that well and it's really not that great eating twenty five of these things a day they start taking up the space and displacing the fact that there's other foods that you don't like as well as strawberries but you like them better than strawberries after you've had seven or eight strawberries and that's the same thing that can happen with with dedicated driven human achievement where we're trying to do something outstanding the point is is that if we get caught up in the outcomes the competitive process of trying to do something spectacular and world earth-shattering or anything else the problem is it's very easy to get life out of balance and then to be disappointed when we fall short because we didn't get the outcome etc so what we're trying to do here instead more than focus on the outcome is I want people to focus on the process I want them to pursue the excellence behind the meditation of watching their self-esteem mechanism activate the pride circuits that comes with knowing that they dug dug in and they did an excellent job at what it is that they were attempting to do the reason why they were doing it this for some competitive processes and that they wanted to get recognition and heterosexual chips and cash money and other things that it would come with excellence that's fine but we also have to keep such pursuits in balance or else the genes have beat us and the desire to get to those outcomes as sitting inside of a competitive landscape that is very very difficult to get at the top of any dominance hierarchy in the world today or anywhere close to the top of a demand hierarchy without unbelievable phenomenal commitment where it's way out of balance okay so if you want to be the chief of thoracic surgery at you know Stanford good luck to you you're going to have to dedicate your life to getting to the top about little dominance hierarchy and you're going to have to have essentially no communication with your wife or husband as however that works not much communication with your children and you're going to not be able to play golf and enjoy that ie all the other grapes and grape fruit and bananas and everything else that you would want to have for breakfast because all you're going to be eating is strawberries nothing else okay so I would encourage you to look at this life as an adventure and to have the notion that that when you have things to spark your interest where you might have relative strengths that you could pursue those strengths and actually achieve some interesting things some things that might be really remarkable they could even be timeless okay you might trip over and be part of and do something like Casablanca that 80 years later you look at that thing and it's still incredible the but the point is what we want to focus rather than on the externals of what the achievements could bring what we want to do instead is focus on how much we're enjoying the process as it goes and that's that's where we're trying to beat our genes with the process rather than the outcome does that make sense yeah yeah those those really insightful thank you good good okay all right thank you and other questions that come up about that where's that Vettel is that directing that discussion in a way that you needed it um yes for sure ah and I had some things I wanted to ask but I mean that was the crux of it um yeah I mean just one quick follow-up ah I was I was I know I did mention that I do use it it's kind of a like that kind of a situation that I found myself in well I do along with like singer-songwriter work where I do guitar piano singing all that type of stuff and then I'll could be like and then I also do hip-hop with like rapping and they're like hardcore lyrics and I'm staying in there they're a lot different for each other and I find that I just happen to be in a position where I could make some contact locally to some pretty important people the hip-hop game and it's something I I like doing and I think I'm equally skilled at either those you know different genres but I think using a songwriter stuff is more who I am but the hip-hop enough heat I see as yielding and easier you know it means it's that lifestyle that I wanted like you can give me more heterosexual shapes as were saying and I found myself struggling pitch I didn't rather do you want to do haha okay the in general I would look at this thing as a as a this is where you want to in some ways follow your nose and not be afraid to make a mistake so if there's opportunities they could close with your hip hop issue for example that if there's a set of social dynamics that are taking place that the the singer-songwriter will never close you could be a singer-songwriter when you're 83 just ask Joni Mitchell okay so hey but if there's a set of social dynamics that open a window of something that's interesting and fun and could be lucrative etc then there's really no reason not to be open to the experience and see where it leads if it if it leads to more or less nowhere in six or eight months or a year or something or however long it lasts then the other Avenue is never going to leave you it's always there so there's nothing there's nothing in the world I am a what's your age 26 yeah the this is a time of life to take big chances and to expand your horizons do wacky things essentially try to do things that are far outside the box that you know things that you you probably won't be doing when you're 46 because what you want to do is you want to essentially if you have a little cockroach that's trying to optimize his behavior in in a square meter of territory if that little cockroach stays within that square meter and just lives its whole life there it's going to be really good at knowing every little bump and every little hole and every little a feed the lives in that that lives in that square meter but it won't have necessarily optimized its life experience because it might have been smarter to actually go three meters by three meters and to walk all over a landscape that's 9 square meters instead of one square meter and spend half your life figuring out what on earth the landscape looks like and then have the second half of life basically honed in on this is the this is the place of the landscape where I'm going to live ok and this is what it is that I'm going to do because now I've surveyed the landscape so when you're in your 20s you are absolutely still surveying the landscape and my attitude would be be bold and adventurous at that time in your life and expand your landscape expand your horizons and just be a sponge to soak up and learn and experience there's plenty of time to pull in your pull in your horizons closer to you later after you know you know this is me this is what I want to do I'm now much more certain of that and I'm willing to to essentially get more focused and less broad so that's how I look at that okay cool okay that's awesome and yeah and I think that's that's definitely a thing I promise o struggling with too is not wanting to cut bait with all the difficulties in singer-songwriter the hip hop of also really into fitness and have been spending my time trying to learn about that so that I could be a personal trainer and then a minimum of videography and photography and it and it kind of harkens back to something I learned in a book about meditation actually which was you know we are mano tasking kind of creatures and if you if you try to pursue any things at once you're probably just going to do a mediocre job at all of them instead of honing in on one and doing a really great job at it and it's just I'm finding it hard to cut bait with any one of those things in case it's the wrong thing to cut bait with you know what I mean yeah my attitude towards this is - like I said 26 and for a while into the future the way to be is to not be worried about honing in and achieving your optimum capabilities in some narrow domain that for all we know what's what will percolate inside that head are potentially you need cross pollenization two different kinds of goals where you're where you're learning different kinds of things as long as they're interesting and so there is no way for you to know what you may be learning as you as you follow your own gut into things that are interesting about how this comes together for you five years from now or ten years from now in a unique solution in a unique you know amalgam of little bits that come together in some new kind of goal or interesting thing so I'm never I'm never up for young people very narrow in their focus if they happen to be that way personality wise and it turns out that by God ever since they were you know 13 years old they want to be an anesthesiologist then go for it kid but there's a very good chance and that you sound you know more adventurous and right brained and varied interests this is fine and so keep your eyes open keep your horizons wide and continue to learn and then you let events and in demands and the internal sense of a need for for balance and shifting of resources and and time and attention you let that dictate the flow but don't don't be shutting down horizons really for any other reason than it makes sense him that you need to okay yeah all right cool I realized that in and uh and you know all the work that you've done and I can't say it enough I I'm so thankful for the pleasure trap in this podcast so happy earth can live it every week Greg son fan thanks for calling thank you Anna Jerry that's gonna call and and as any listeners listening the title the show is a little bit different than the topic we took but that's not a problem that's what we're here for callers will always take priority over the topic that I named the show on can always be changed so we've got no problem with that speaking of which dr. Lyle we've got another caller on hold so we're going to take this color here okay Rick I call her what's your name where you calling from hey this is Steven I'm calling from Ohio got even look at oh thanks finer one written all right what's up Steven what's going on oh yeah my question was kind of like a two-part question that the first part is um do you think I hear a lot you know that leaders are made and not born and I wonder your thoughts on that and then also your thoughts on the on the growth mindset the Carol Dweck stuff like the fixed mindset versus growth mindset because I know you guys is typically nature versus nurture on the show and I just wanted to get your perspective right very good questions okay so the first thing about leaders being or made let's let's let's back up and take a first pass at what it is that that anybody's speculating about and what they're thinking if you if you strip this down what you're really asking is you know is is leadership a skill or is it a personality and the truth is is it's going to be some a bolt okay it's mostly going to be personality so it's going to be mostly born the and so that question has passed through the centuries and until recently until unless you are informed by a subsection of psychology that we call behavior genetics so unless you're if you've listened to this podcast or you have somehow miraculously lown landed in a university class where the professor actually knows the fact and has the guts to say what they are if you actually know that then you know that the human personality is dominated by individual differences in people is dominated by the genetics by their genetics rather than their upbringing the now so that being the case we would understand that to the extent that the that the demands of leadership are associated with or excellence in leadership is going to be associated with personality traits then to that extent that issue is going to be genetics so genetics and it's going to turn out that leadership issues are going to be standard human dynamics issues and so therefore genetics are going to dominate the show absolutely now that doesn't mean but that would also be very much akin to the following that genetics dominate athletics without a doubt so when they when they look and try to select draft choices in the NBA they want to see what the person's span is from fingertip to fingertip they want to see how high the person can jump they want to see how fast they can run 60 feet etc so they have a bunch of objective parameters that are in Jena and they also want to know how you know how strong they are and what their height and their weight is and their age and they've got like you know pretty soon they're going to be able to assay to people's genes and just find out but the bottom line is what they are looking for is genetic parameters they know that those genetic parameters are extremely predictive of people's success at that sport the now they also want to know some other things like how good is the guy at picking all okay what are is ball handling skills now these things are much more learned and so this has to do with whether or not the person has the specific skills you could have one whale of an athlete but the guy's never picked up a basketball he's been playing soccer in Ethiopia okay so as a result you might look at the guy and you're like oh my god you'd be a fantastic basketball specimen what do you do in playing soccer in Ethiopia now so the point is is that you also have to assess the the skills of the specific problem that that specific that specific market niche is seeking so you could have a great leader but the guy doesn't know anything about building refrigerators so you can't put him in charge a refrigerator building you know plant okay that's not going to work very well but the point is is that the particulars of any issue you know given the fact that the particular knowledge demands with respect to any leadership issue are some X amount of information and that X amount of information can be learned in X amount of time the question is who do you pick to do the leadership and the answer is you're going to be picking by genetics so in that way leaders are born they're not made there's people we we can see even from experiments done by Magog II all the way back in the 1960s that within less than a minute most human diets will very quickly determine a dominant and submissive human and those things tend to be stable so the two people meet did you shake hands they sort of chit-chatting they don't even know they're doing it but they're figuring out who's the follower who's the leader just that fast okay so the so that the answer to the age-old question or leaders born or made the answer is leaders are absolutely born but they have to be made to the extent that they have to have the requisite background in the in the details of the area of which that they're leading so you don't you don't put a brilliant CEO in charge of a platoon that's going to try to take you know Bunker Hill that that's not what you do but if you gave that guy two years in the military so that he knew enough about military strategy and etc then that's exactly who you would put charge and Bunker Hill make sense yeah in my job you know they're always doing like leadership development stuff and I I was just wondering about that after listening to your show like the kids are an important trying to be a better leader I'm not like a natural leader yeah I'm not a natural leader than this is a total waste of time so the akka if you get stuck in leadership issues then there's then there's little skills that you can do to make your leadership ability better in some ways but you know if it's if it's not in the genes then there's no point in in hoping that someday this person's going to be some great leader because it's not going to happen okay okay all right yeah the second question I forgot what it was oh it's about mine final question that mindset characteristics mindset yeah yes do X research just to fill people in that are listening is this Oshin that for example if you take children and you have them and you tell them I have been working at some math problems and then they get done and you say well you really made a really good effort that was a good excellent effort then it's going to turn out that when you give them some more math problems they're going to work very hard at those math problems this is what she calls a growth mindset if you take that kids set of answers and you say wow you're really brilliant you're fantastic at math if you then give them a set of new math problems they're maybe a little tiny bit tougher they won't try and they will they will not want to do it if you say would you like to try these you know you don't have to but if you'd like to they won't do it and the answer for the reason that she gives this is what they have called with what she's going to say that's called a fixed mindset in other words we've given them a mindset that you have a certain level of abilities versus you have a flexible type of abilities that could grow now Dweck actually does not understand the dynamic of her own studies these studies are are interesting they they're actually very interesting and they they always work because she has identified a dynamic accurately in other words it is but it she's incorrectly understanding that this is a quote mindset and that it's either fixed or growth mindset what she's identified is what I have talked about is called the ego trap and so in order to understand that you have to you have to understand quite a bit more about psychology than Dweck is actually bringing to the table here so you have to understand that human beings are are designed to seek esteem and that if they put that you give them cues that they have been given more esteem than they believe that they deserve then this causes a cost-benefit analysis to tell that it informs them that they are better off not trying something that it looks like they might not be able to do and so this stops their motivation so essentially you need to understand all motivation of all animals is being run through a cost-benefit set of algorithms all all ultimately mathematically associated with what's known as Hamilton's rule so this is all being derived by the cost-benefit that's involved here is all being directly related to what we're going to call gene survival so this just to pound the point home Dweck doesn't know any of this so des has correctly identified a dynamic in human motivation but actually has no idea why it exists so this is so mindset is a cool thing to read if you read 50 or 60 pages of it it will then soon become repetitive she even at one point says oh this is all about ego and you've got to stop that she actually doesn't know what it is and she's she's essentially lecturing people and saying don't do this to these kids don't do it to yourself don't do it to your friends she's recognizing that this this issue of she calls it fixed mindset but actually what it is is it's over rewarding people with esteem above the level of their belief in what it is that they could be capable of doing so it turns out that if you gave quote what you would call fixed mindset feedback to people where it was actually below the level of what it is that they're capable of doing it would stop their motivation at all they would they would actually be insulted if you then gave them a bunch of easy of easy math problems and said ed you want to do those they would okay it would have to be where the inference was we had over rewarded them with status for the ability then they would stop buying the cost-benefit analysis so this I have articulated this on my website at steam dynamics comm and also on this podcast that's actually the dynamic that Dweck has identified and her empirical work is excellent and it's a pure beautiful one demonstration after the next of exactly what we've analyzed here okay okay very good guys call it the show except thank you very much for the call so yeah also look at listen to that audio clip it's that it's Team Dynamics org so all right so let's see where that in future if you get up yet and you know that you want to able that and just do a show with it next week I don't know if we want to try to cover the future in ten minutes yeah maybe not do we have any other we got any lurking questions around yeah let me pull a couple up so yeah I take a look at everybody's questions and in this particular case we had enough a couple of questions that struck my fancy about the future so I put it in so let me let see actually this is a really funny funny little show somebody sent me just now a few hours ago the staff at the other show called This American Life it's a national broadcast as a national radio show like a podcast and what they did was they all had their testosterone measured yeah and then they decided to before they got the results they were going to rate each other who they thought had more testosterone than everybody else it was having girls half guys it was a really really interesting thought and this listener wanted to know if you could listen to it and then respond to it so I'll send it to you and so you can listen to it but the results were actually pretty funny it was really really interesting to see how they were quite accurate on the females it was now there was a gay guy who they thought he'd have the lowest because he's gay and there was another guy who got into a lot of fights and played a lot of sports and they odd he had the highest estas room but it turns out his complete opposite the gay guy had the highest like twice more than the next level the next guy yeah and the guy yeah and a lot of fights yeah right yeah so we're going to get is so it's not going to be so simple as is just measuring levels within a population the we're going to turn out that these are going to be statistically useful if we're looking at at a lot of people in large numbers but it's going to be only fairly modest Korell co-efficient measuring in between report we're going to find probably and this is probably quite easy to demonstrate and is probably true is that within a subject if you did something to raise that person's testosterone level you would see it in their behavior okay all right so that's how that's going to work so the the general this is like cholesterol levels you can run very high cholesterol levels and be extremely healthy because you just might run high cholesterol levels but if your cholesterol levels raised substantially the way that that would have happened is you started eating a lot more animal food and now we're going to start to see you know we can start to see evidence of you know cardiovascular distress so that that's how that's going to work so just because there's a lot of people out there thinking that their cholesterol is are 140 and that they're safe they're not even remotely safe the your cholesterol level could be quite low and yet that's just because that's you naturally run cholesterol low but you could be having a lot of cardiovascular problems so this is this is the same kind of thing that it's more important about but within subject changes that could take place although the between subjects should be somewhat informative because the dynamic is real so that's why populations for example that have very high cholesterol levels statistically are far more likely they're going to have higher percentages of heart attacks and strokes than populations that have less but on an individual basis it's not going to be so useful as a predictor okay OSU so that that's what's happening there but it's interesting and it the same thing will be true the females but I'm not surprised so we would be interesting to look at the correlation coefficients between testosterone levels in in a population of a sample of eighty people and whether we're that lined up to certain personality characteristics particularly for example disagreeable I would be very interested in in that correlation coefficient I'm sure it's yeah I'm sure it's there and I'm sure it's pretty pretty solid correlation coefficient but I be interested in knowing whether it's 0.3 or 0.6 I think in other words this is just a little modest correlation or is it a pretty big one you know that somebody someday may figure that out that's a good PhD thesis mm-hmm yeah the interesting part with their show is they were the the scientist who was going to do the blood tests he was saying be careful because this ends up getting you know pitting people against each other and now there's no question you know if everyone believes that testosterone is the big you know indicator of status then now there's no question where were you where you stand but from what you're saying this this case yeah you've got a little subgroup that thinks that that that's the end-all be-all indicator you can influence that little micro social network now guys that's like all the sweaty armpits among a bunch of grad students when you start doing that the block design on a Wechsler intelligence test suddenly we've got the great objective measure that's going to measure who's the smartest and everybody everybody is all instead of that when all we're talking about is a measure that's a modest correlation with anything and so exactly but you know that's all that's all fun and games as long as people can keep it in the proper perspective mm-hmm excellent yeah what was interesting is the the girl who got had the most disaster was actually seven months pregnant ah that's very interesting yeah so that who knows there's all kinds of cascading hormone processes that are going on and we don't know why and that could be a male child and she could be androgen izing a male child for all we know so I don't know how that looks very interesting yeah it's interesting to hear the the hosts just talk about oh yeah it's gonna be Julie because she's always very bossy and dominant and always telling everybody what's big there's no question turned out to be true so correlation coefficient is positive we just don't know how positive that's what it is okay okay and so don't know if there's do you know anything about testosterone and gay gay men and do the gay men you know do you know if they have more testosterone on average or is that known um I do not know I I I think that's a great question I can't believe that it's not known because it should be known the I would assume that it would be pretty close to heterosexual men if it's lower on average I would expect that this would be a pair of overlapping bell curves that would be pretty close I don't think that they would be a pair of bell curves that are very far apart the now the what will what what's going and it could be that the differences in gay and straight men may not even exist as adults but but in in fact may it be only relevant when the the brain is in process of development in utero and so that that very likely we actually know that that's involved so that it could be that it's the differences are involved there and how andron eyes the brain is at that point and then after after birth there may not be any differences that you subsequently see so I I don't know interesting question and somebody should know they don't fantastic all right all right dr. light I think I think how do you feel about calling it calm the show and we'll do the future thing next week that sounds perfect that's just great Nate excellent so Dan and the two callers I called in thank you very very much for calling in we really appreciate it again callers take priority so we will we'll go over what the future will look like next week dr. Lyle as always pleasure pleasure hearing you talk
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