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Episode 89: Ex-husband and father of my kids is a sociopath, On-air session
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good evening everybody nate g here with a beat your jeans podcast I'm your host and I'm joined by dr. Doug Lyall psychologist for this podcast we go over current events science articles listener questions and for the last few shows I've been reading questions from our listeners and dr. Lyle will answer them giving us insight from the lens of evolutionary psychology and his experience as a psychologist and once in a while we'll get an email from a listener with a question that can't be answered just from reading the email so in that case we reach out to them do a pre-recorded on-air session with dr. Lyle and then I'll put it up later on and this is what we have for today's episode so for day's show we actually get to be flies on the wall in a therapy session as we listen to how dr. Lyle navigates a situation with our caller [Music] thanks for calling in and just give me a background about what it is that we're trying to look at what we're trying to improve okay well I am 47 year old divorced and single female I come from of England I was married for about six years so a very short marriage and a long time ago just a few facts about the marriage my ex-husband was engaged twice before our engagement we were engaged about for about six months after we first got together so that the courting stage was about six months I would say the reason why we got together in the first place is through a casual mating encounter as you would call it during the marriage he had the multiple extramarital affairs he was a teacher and these affairs were with teach fellow teachers and legal pupils over the legal age if you see what I mean um where you go there you don't see like guys and I call it college level then at no college level teacher okay so that just curious how could students be over the legal age if he was a schoolteacher uh well in in the UK the the legal the age of consent is 16 got it and thought you would be teaching from the ages of 11 to 18 and not usually yeah so there we are okay so that that split it short okay then I divorced him after another affair with an ad an adult I read female this time he after a period of period of time remarried wife number two a number of years later and had a daughter with her another another long story about how all this came about which I won't go into but he ended up being convicted of child abuse with a this time male 13 year old pupil at a school I love all the time ago before we got together so it's one of those historical cases that came up after a period of time at and spent two-and-a-half years in jail okay throughout his jail time he was still married to wife number two but he had already started an affair with another woman and on his release from jail he separated from his second wife I uh I once I knew about separation he had a further daughter with the second wife and he has two children who are grown up now children with me there was there is no suggestion that he has abused his his own children in any way so he had an affair whilst he was married with the second wife and they sim separated so he's now out of prison he's on the sex offender register he has a sexual harm prevention order and maybe not coincidental but his younger brother also a music teacher has also been convicted and similar offenses and he is currently serving 12 years in jail so there we are well my my question so yeah it's all a bit of a mess my my question is that this as far as I concerned this man is is a manipulative narcissistic person he's very difficult to to deal with and frankly I would be happy and I know his second wife ex-wife would be happy never to have to deal with him again he he shows false empathy to get his own way he lies all the time he constantly tries to breach any terms of any order that that's you know any contact order that he might have he's highly articulate and manipulative he considered this that the world you know the people like prison officers police officers and probation officers are all sort of beneath him and he tries to manipulate them and he also shows that I think he preferred to it a few in the podcast as he admission he likes to admit things he he admits to his offenses quite readily particularly with women and so he can avoid dealing with it such as it and he then he almost makes it sound to say it like it's your fault because he's got so much easier the tears come and I always been dreadful and I'm terrible I'm a terrible terrible person but you know I promise better and then it makes you forget about the actual offense that he's done and he just uses the same tactics time and time again and it's so you know we thinks we can't see him coming and as myself and ex-wife number two we're just going to have to he's in our lives you know we can't avoid it because we have children with him had what makes up that type of person what characteristics allows a person to be able to exist as kinds a stupid thing to say but you know what I mean but young and how do you do with that kind of kind of person well first thing is is that he's this isn't narcissism it sociopathy okay so he's a sociopath all right so he all of his behavior is consistent with us so the and so the correct way to deal with sociopaths is not at all there is no way to deal with sociopaths your the job is to get to get your life as far from a sociopath as possible and if you have to deal with a sociopath you deal with them behind every barrier of legal restraint that you can okay so that that is the solution so my you you may have comment about how he's in your life and you have to deal with them I I'm not sure why tell him tell me under what circumstances would you ever have to deal with him okay well as I said my children had a grown-up now so I and many many years dealing with his him picking up the children and drop in the loss and that kind of a parenting thing and I don't have to do so much of that now obviously but he he also kind of surround himself with he's surrounded by enabler so his parents think he's absolutely wonderful his current girlfriend thinks he's brilliant and you know they can't see that he's done anything wrong whatsoever and and so he has that sort of bedrock of support and so you know that maybe if my children got married you know it it's up to them what their relationship with him is you know it was you know I'm left less involved in those positions so I wouldn't possibly see him at weddings and you know family events that kind of thing on would slow down let's we're slow down here okay the what like right now he shouldn't be picking up your children at all these children are wet ages oh they are 20 and 17 and though he isn't okay now if we and so no personally I don't have to see him regularly for any for any reason whatsoever so I might have to in the future if you know there was a family occasion that meant that those parents were there now the situation is slightly different with my with with his ex-wife number two because her child is a lot younger her childhood is a cobbler and the legal system in this country would say look you know if he's no gain he's no physical danger to the child then you know the chances are even if it was in a in a controlled situation and supervised he would be able to see her for an hour a month she'll to me sure that's a liner yeah let's let's back up so your let's so he's he's not having he's not coming by to pick up any of your children now you're home now so I I don't see any reason why we would ever have to see this man I'm not I'm not sure what what reasons would there be for you to ever lay eyes on this guy again okay so if my daughter got married mm-hmm right then the chances are if if she in the future had some kind of you know relationship with him he would have to be it he would be at the wedding and I would be at the wedding at her mother and right so this is this is you looking Hey yeah you're looking well occasions like that though tell me what other occasions I have a feeling what we got is we got your conscientious brain looking through the worst case scenario for a good reason because disguise total worthless sleaze and his snake and so of course you are reason is reasonable for you to be worried about it but that's what we're trying to do here is reduce your anxiety and give you more inner peace if that's appropriate so let's look now apart from a wedding what other circumstances could ever come up that would that we call for you and he to be in the same place Oh again my neuroticism is is kicking in here it Rafi I don't know like a university graduation I don't know 23 21st birthday party that kind of thing you know yeah okay so graduation so we got we got two possible graduations and we've got two 21st birthday parties and two weddings so we've got a total of six incidences okay so let's let's look hard before we put these under the microscope and make sure that we're not missing anything what what else could we possibly have uh a call think of much else that I would record that we have in the same room have in now that's not to say that I don't get but my son he's at university does have some contact with him and does the unions awesome and has contact with his his paternal grandparents right my daughter has no no contact now I'm not saying that I suppose if I was really honest in myself if I have to hear anything about this man you know I get so irritated and wound up by it right but I I could I could do with making my pizza that way as well in terms of how I feel about him all right so what we're what we're trying to do though is we as we look out I actually believe that the the source of this problem is actually an esteem issue and let's look down here the source of this the I'm hearing I'm hearing little little spokes to the wheel here that did that tell us what's at the center of the wheel so I'm hearing that you're irritated with your your in-laws and his current girlfriend because they don't see that he's a sleaze ball okay so that doesn't seem fair to you it doesn't seem fair to you that he has any steam in the village at all so that's a source of irritation the that makes sense but what we want to do though is something a little different we want to look at at what the most central esteem dynamics are that are troubling and the steam dynamics that are troubling are the evaluations of him relative to you in the minds of your two children so I want you to imagine that both of your children came to you and told you mom we no doubt is a total sociopathic sleazeball we don't want anything to do with them and now that we're you know when we turn 21 or ií'd now that we have choice we have no interest in him whatsoever and we'll never have anything to do with them how does that feel I would be relieved all right so we hit the circuit okay so we are able to see that that's actually what's going on so what's going on is you have anxiety over the fact that that this guy has enough charm to essentially seduce your children into giving him status hello denied yeah yeah this is and let's face it he seduced your clothes off of you got you to the altar so the point is is that you're well aware that his sociopathy is effective enough that he could potentially sell particularly his own children all right his own children have Hamilton's rule working against them so they're likely to be fairly altruistic towards their father so they're going to give him the benefit of the doubt after all it is their Jin's and so the UU we've got a a problem in the middle of this mix so let's now tell me about your it's interesting that your daughter has quote no relationship with him tell me about what your daughter seems to think and feel about her father uh she well as you know teenagers kind of paper in the wind you know they changed her mind quite quite regularly about these things at the moment she has some quite ideological views about parent Parenthood in as much that you know she she says well you know he he's not parented me for all of these years so why should he know you maybe it no should be no way yeah and I'm now he's an idiot and he's an idiot he's an idiot he's no way yeah he's not so her her objection to him is that he hasn't been around yes yeah that's troubling okay so that wouldn't be very secure to you because that would imply that if he started to invest in her that she might think differently okay so she's not very sophisticated all right so she's lacking did does she does she understand that this is a that this is a completely pathological criminal yes I have been very careful about telling them both exactly what truth is oh my goodness so now we find out we've got a mistake okay so this is a this is a central mistake you're how smart is your daughter Patti fought for uh is she an above-average high school student yes okay so she's what's her emotional quality like is she a decent human being okay so she doesn't have any the sociopathic tendencies of her father should bloody hope no okay that's okay it's very easy admit these things are genetic he didn't decide on this he just is how about your son is your son a decent person yes okay so so this the sociopathic genes did not take over their moral systems so they got you know again a sociopath like this is an outlier and outliers don't happen very often okay so Michael Jordan's son is Michael Jordan jr. is a very average mediocre basketball player you know not competent to play at the major college level in other words that the Sun now regress to the mean of the genetic population so these two children had a half a dose of a major sociopaths DNA but they have regressed to the mean of the population that neither one of them is an outlier they're both completely normal decent people okay now the we certainly when they're young and confuse an awfully young person 17 year old is so young and 20 years old is not young so there's really no reason to not be very straight with your children and to say that you're you know I the truth is is as a parent my job is to try to guide you in the best ways that I can so I want you to do a good job at your education I want you to treat other people well and you know I want you to be good people and I want you to have good lives and in that way just like if we were living in the woods it would be my job to tell you about plants that look ok but are in fact dangerous and animals that are deadly ok so that's how I would help you survive and help you not get maybe injured or killed and so I would teach you about poison oak and poison ivy and I would teach you about poisonous spiders and I would point these things out to you as you grew up in order to help you not make a very bad decision that could be really costly and unfortunately sometimes you know poison ivy looks just like a regular plant you're not even thinking anything of it and when you're walking through the woods to go get berries you brush yourself against it and you don't you don't know that you've got a problem till later and that's what your father's like so I was a young person you know not too much older than you and I brushed up against your dad and he was attractive and funny and great smile he looked nice looked like like a nice ivy that you would take home and plant it in your yard but I find out that he was poison ivy okay he's a problem and now many other people have found that out and our legal system has found it out and they had to put him in prison so this is not a good person this is a bad man and it's not something I enjoy telling you about your father but I I have to tell you this because he's dangerous just like just like a dangerous spider or a snake and and so he will you he's very charming I know that better I fell in love with a guy but I then fell out of love with him after he did me a lot of damage so that's that's as a parent I have to tell you this and I can't I can't tell you how to feel and I can't tell you what to do because you're you're big people and you'll make your own decisions but I it is my responsibility as your mom who loves you to guide you as best as I can and I would just warn you that I believe that my life is better off having nothing to do with your father and I believe that your life is better off having nothing to do with your father if your father had anything about him that was good I would want him in your life but this is not how I feel and I believe that any relationship with him is actually a mistake okay and if you if you have a relationship with him just uh it won't be make me angry it just makes me worried for you and so you know that that's your choice and we I cross my fingers and and hopefully he wouldn't he wouldn't hurt you too bad but but make no mistake he's a bad man he's a bad human being that's what I would tell my kids yeah he said I met Johnny earlier what what's that well yeah I don't know we made a mistake why I would not hide the truth from them at all under my bi I haven't put in the truth I haven't indicated they'd read all those news reports and you know yeah everything um are you okay yeah I even went to call any worse ensign so I could tell them about it got it okay so good good that's what I meant I thought that you had sheltered them from truths about their father no no that yeah okay so all right so then so then the anxiety here is that somehow in spite of these warnings and this evidence that they're going to want him at their 21st birthday party they want him that there is at their graduations and that they want him at their wedding if it turns out that despite your warnings that they choose to do this then then you've got options and it depends upon how you want to play those options the if we it could be that one of these children is going to have to learn this the hard way it could also be the case that you spend a bunch of time in consternation over some event and it turns out it doesn't go that badly so the when we think about him for example let's take the worst case scenario I would say what could that be your daughter's wedding yeah give me my don't worry yeah I think giving your daughter away would have to be the worst-case scenario so the so here we are in church and mature daughters you know it's this enormous ly important day of your daughter's life and because if some cultural pressure and sweet talking by her father and a feeling of you know some guilt and wanting to make amends and he's really not that bad and etc etc and he charms are a little bit so he decides to have him walk her down the aisle alright so in this way it can be particularly disturbing for you because he gets to be the star of the show and he's a peacock you know narcissistic sociopath who would love this and it looks like he wins okay so it looks like despite everything that you've thrown at him and every every bit of that that by any stretch of imagination with respect to what would be fair and just he would be rejected by your daughter okay but he is in fact not rejected by your daughter he is in fact embraced by your daughter and kissed by the cheek on your daughter and one of the great stars of the show of her wedding right right in front of of God and country and everybody okay so that people that know the story that you were divorced you then potentially look like you somehow lost a social contest right so that that would be pretty a pretty lousy day to have to choke down is there anything I'm missing about this that would be disturbing at know you've got it dead right I got a dead right okay all right now let's talk about this that that is a social process that you almost certainly have control over so you can choose whether or not that takes place or not and this is how you do it if you would really like to not have to live with that and live with that memory for the rest of your life which you might not want to you you would know yourself well enough whether or not you could shrug your shoulders week we can look into the future and know that to do that the only reason your daughter would do this is because she doesn't have enough knowledge of her father okay that she could be she could make a mistake here and not actually have enough information about him that within within a few years post any wedding she will be thoroughly disillusioned and disgusted and everything else into the Sun etc okay so however you might not be too happy about having to live with the fact that he gets to walk around gloating in his own mind that he that he won on that day and that was a pretty damn big day for him to win and it's a pretty damn big day for him to win when you raise these children and had to escape this total sleaze ball and that he comes in at the eleventh hour and and wins the prize it just is it's a disgusting scenario that all this is about is status so there's there's nothing else that's involved and the real relationships that mean the most you in this life or would not ultimately long-term affected by this there'd be a short term per debate or perturbation and distortion of the relative value of the people so I don't doubt that in the end your children are going to get this right but they might get it wrong on that day if you don't want that to happen you tell your daughter it's a no deal you're in control okay you can put your cards on the table in a showdown and just say listen I'm just letting you know when you're planning this wedding if you're if you're going to have your dad bringing down to the aisle I won't be there okay go ahead put the pressure on her no worries should let her face it down that that will let her know this is this is fair she has to negotiate the fact that there are psychological psychological consequences to all parties involved in this process and she it would be it's for you to do the soul-searching to figure out where it is that you really stand on this don't fall on your sword and be a martyr because it's the right thing to do and you don't want to be outrageous and put pressure on your kid now now if you're if you feel like it's going to haunt your days and be just too completely you know stuck in your craw for for the next two decades or three decades don't do it just tell your daughter it's a no deal it's you know it's up to you and I love you to death and I wish for you a you know a wonderful life with this man that you're marrying and and I would love to be at the wedding I would love to but I will not be there if your father's there done checkmate I think the odds that your daughter makes the wrong decision and votes for her father over her mother are extremely small okay so I would go to the mat and just to play dirty you could go to the mat and if it turns out by some incredible bizarre twist of political fortune your daughter says sorry mom I'm going to go with that you could always back down and go anyway okay so this is how I would play this card game and and I would plan though I would plan to bluff though by not bluffing my plan would be to to say you know what love you to death wish for you a great thing I'm not going to live with the visions in my in my in my mind of him walking me down the aisle I'm just not going to do it oh love you you you you you're gonna have to think that one through for yourself that's what I would do that make sense Wow yeah okay yeah well this is how you play hardball okay this is how you do it so so this this you're in control here it's useful to know that I believe you're in a position of power over this this outcome and you can do the same thing with your son so no problem say listen no problem I'm behind you all the way I'm just delighted I'm just tickled to death that you found a girl that you want to marry and have a life with but if your dad's coming to the wedding I'm not going to be there checkmate okay your dad can get a video of the wedding that's fine you can send you a gift that's fine you call him up and congratulate you that's fine but if he's there I'm not there just just just win this game don't let him win it okay you could do the same thing with graduations glad to send in the video okay no problem send a video phone call congratulations he could send a graduation present but if your dad's going to be there I'm not going to be there just run the table on this son of a bitch win em all graduations birthdays weddings he he does not deserve to be there and he doesn't deserve to be in your memories with respect to these things and you you you can actually be by taking essentially your anxiety out of how it is that you're going to manage this situation we can actually be even-tempered and more seemingly reasonable about him with respect to your children in a openly in a relaxed fashion that you know what can you do what can you do the guy charms me total sleaze ball he's a snake sociopath and you know he's just he's going to make a mess of a bunch more people's lives for a while for fortunately he didn't mess up my whole life you know it's all great I got two great kids I've got a good life everything's fine and but you know I've got a I've got a rock in my shoe he's a little rock in my shoe and every now and then I step on it and hurts my foot but otherwise my life's good and so we we don't we don't hide from our art you know our children how utterly disgusted and rejecting we are towards this man and we we let him know hey you know I just I hope he's a snake and he's a poison ivy and I hope that you know don't get yourself too vulnerable with this guy don't get to be too close because the closer you are the more likely it is that you're going to get burned don't put the poison ivy near your genitals keep it on your ankles okay all right thus make some sense okay it does make a little sense um thank you yeah I feel a bit more empowered about this no that's exactly where we are so go ahead if we've time um tell me a little bit more about sex in general yes sociopaths are you can imagine that the following would be true that human communication communication systems develop in animals because it's mutually advantageous so like like if I say hey you know where's the pizza you say oh it's in the kitchen you know so that communication costs me a little bit to chirp it out and cost you a little bit of time and energy to tell me but the point of it and why we have that communication is that that you now have saved me a little bit of time and I owe you a little bit so in communications like that you'll hear the other person say oh thank you okay so this is uh this is thank you means I owe you you get a little bit of credit because you took a little bit of time to help so human beings are extremely cooperative and their cooperation can become more and more efficient the more sophisticated their communication so when the doctor says will tell me exactly where it hurts he's trying to help you and he's trying to figure out if he knows something about what your situation is so that he can prescribe you know something some process or medicine that might be able to help you so communication is has evolved because of its value in mutual assistance that the efficiencies that are involved there all right now but but communication means in principle that what it is that I say can influence what it is that you're going to do so essentially communication is manipulative so we use that term now in the most generic accurate frame possible it doesn't mean that I'm manipulating you to trick you into do something for my benefit no it means that the reason I'm saying what I'm saying is because I'm attempting to influence you okay and so when a father says to his son get out of the street he is manipulating his son right so but he's doing so for the son's best interest and the father's best interest so it's actually so instead of the word maybe manipulate which has has two negative of a connotation we might say influence so the purpose of all communication is to influence the receiver now because that's true it's been unbelievably useful across the whole course of evolution to be influenceable so when dad says get out of the street you get out of the street when mom says don't eat that one that one's poisonous you don't eat it so it's extremely valuable to be subject to influence influential communications that possibility though that that capability of being influenced to be have your behavioral trajectory altered by communications from someone else that means that you are open to being exploited okay so that means someone can be lying to you they can tell you know this swampland is going to get EPA approval it's going to be fine and they're going to drain the swamp so you should buy now while it's cheap okay this is this is deception and so deception is about trying to get people to engage in relational transactions trades when they would not have made those trades had they known what the real truth was about the situation so this is the the danger of communication as the communication can result in deception and so you can imagine on a bell curve that people that are reasonably honest in their communications and not particularly deceptive windup dominated the gene pool because there's going to be the bullshit detection equipment that it's going to evolve to defend itself against deceptive communications and there's also going to be memory systems that are going to remember who is deceptive there's going to be a whole host of essentially communication sub strategies that are going to see to it that the disorganization so the the cost benefit of being subject to influence winds up being more benefit than it is cost and it's going to be the case that most people are going to wind up mostly pretty trustworthy most the time now when we start changing the parameters like you go to big cities instead of small villages now we're going to reduce that a little bit okay when it turns out the genes look an awful lot different so if you're strolling the little Barrios of Mexico trying to buy something they're more likely to be thinking about lying to you then then they would be their third cousin so there there's going to be all kinds of factors that are going to swirl around the deceptiveness of communication the deceptiveness is always potentially dangerous so it it carries with it Hoss to you that could be small or it could be large but it's meant to actually have you incur costs for their benefit as a result you can imagine the truthfulness of individuals is going to vary on a bell curve and most individuals are going to be pretty truthful a few individuals are going to be unbelievably truthful and a few individuals are going to be ruthlessly dishonest okay ruthlessly dishonest will be rare genetic specimens and but they can survive in the gene pool you know under certain conditions if they're nice-looking if they're articulate if they're intelligent all those three things apply to your X okay so the so as a result this is what's going on so why do these people exist they exist because there is a niche in the ecological landscape that says if you are effective at Deception and it happens to come along with some other characteristics like attractiveness articulation and affable veneer then you can wind up impregnating a bunch of females and walk off and not actually up to support him okay so that that strategy can can stay alive in a gene pool even though it will not it will not happen often because it's not a very good strategy in general it's not as good as a more honest strategy all right so that's what you're looking at that's why it comes about it comes about because of of the inherent possibility of the utility of deception so this guy is a and that's what we call a sociopath so a sociopath is or psychopath these are it's the same thing these are it's not the same as narcissism so narcissism is someone who you know over values themselves relative to the truth which means that they are they're very disagreeable because they really believe that they deserve more than than the rest of the market thinks they deserve so they can be very angry they can be violent etc they can be they be very difficult to deal with but they're but they are not associate have associate paths we have to have very low conscientiousness okay so basically there's no conscience there yeah it's they actually see people as as objects from which to get things and to try to get them at the smallest price which is exactly what the rest of us do except they are completely willing to be deceptive which we are not okay so they're up to the same things that everybody else is up to except for their total willingness to be completely deceptive and so that's what your ex is your ex is a sociopath he he may also be narcissistic as well it becomes more obvious that there's something very wrong when they are both disagreeable and sociopathic all right so but that's he isn't necessarily both okay at the same way so yeah he uh after a couple of years of married life this happened it's with X number 2 dot he got disagreeable you know yeah he was ever right you know just got you know terribly you would you know moan about everything you know nothing was we was good enough yes yeah so yeah this is all you know whatever the Machine Rios is in his head it's probably battling also some sexual novelty seeking chips that are natural to two males and so after he had yeah so after he had sex with you for a while he that suddenly wasn't as as exciting and so now the whole package little cost benefit on bearing Mary doesn't look very good and so so now suddenly he's bitching about everything and and you know he's he's he's going to then move on which he did not towards divorce but in fact just started to have his own total sexual life outside of the relationship so this is uh yeah he's a sociopath this is a scum of the earth all right this is this is the fortunately he's he doesn't have a violent streak to him or else he would have killed people and beat you up and did all kinds of you know the rest of the nine yards he doesn't have that aspect at him so he is a he's a non-violent psychopath and these people are horrendous horrendous individuals there they are they are effectively there they're the most creepy dangerous thing that there is in the world which is they're a very very smart amoral animal okay the movie invasions of the Body Snatchers you know ii mean which is unbelievably creepy movie about aliens that that inhabit humans and you can't tell the difference that's what they're like okay and i've i've met many of them you know 15 years in criminal justice the vast majority of people that are incarcerated for major crimes are not psychopaths but when you meet them and you interact with them you realize there it is there it is there there is a cold ruthless cunning that is all about itself okay and it does not have normal human empathy mechanisms at all and this is a total snake so this is why we you know we're not histrionic about explaining this to our children we do it kind of dispassionately but firmly and with with you know emphasis that this is a bad human just in the same way that I'd warn you against a black widow spider okay so it's the same way I'd warn you against poisonous materials poisonous fruit that looks attractive and you think that you might want it if you bite into it it tastes sweet but it's going to kill you okay this is exactly why I'm here as your parent so this is what I communicate and and that's you know that's what it is so that's it's a it's a great phone call for people to listen to because not not too many people get head to head and close and personal with it with a psychopath but you did and normal people can and when you do you need you know you need help and you need clarity because your job is not is in principle our life is better if you never lay eyes on this son of a bitch again yeah it was definitely devastating because this is the charm and it's not it's not you know he's not a particularly amazing physical not Letterman wrote and that and I from having listened to your work which has been really really useful I've come to the conclusion that he had he he treated every encounter the casual nation in cast her I don't ask the right you know no wish to to commit or Ethel down or with anyone whatsoever and what he you know and I'm not going to go into too many details about his lies because readily findable or not used to do was use his his artistic skill in order doing and be his advertisement so that's what he used to draw draw the draw people and new sexual contact and conquest into kids into her sexual layer and right I I think when when that all when the career came crashing down which it did obviously and he'll clearly never work in a school or or any other kind of institution ever again because of his record it devastated him and I couldn't really I could quite sort of work out why for a long time and I did and please say if I'm wrong about this but I came to the conclusion that it was actually because he had been stopped in his math ute because he because the arena had gone you know his his natural arena you're attracting people ie his talent was no longer there for him because he could because he was unable to work in that environment right sure deaf of course that's a that was a devastating blow to the the the designs of his jeans his jeans were designed to niche pick for situations that would be optimal to display attractive characteristics in order to get casual mating so that's what he was doing and and so of course he was devastated the that about too bad for him and good for everybody else absolutely all right well listen thank you very much for calling great phone call really you know interesting problem and if you have any questions more about this please feel free to write to me and we can communicate and I can give you feedback on on how to manage anything that you're still you know uncertain about okay all right that that's just so generous of you thank you so much and I've learned so much from listening to you and watching you on YouTube and thank you very very much for giving your time and expertise to me my pleasure
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