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Episode 65: Finding your edge in life
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well hey good evening everybody it's Nate G along with dr. Doug Lyall Wow how you doing today good I like yourself oh not too bad you know it's been uh it's been interesting interesting week in terms of weather at Southern California but but because the summer is coming and life is beautiful and looking forward to summer that's that's pretty that's for sure hmm and and we managed to get podcast going so how about is that yeah yes that is bad yes yes my little garage operation here is a laboratory turning into people have no idea just how primitive we are very well today today you know I titled the podcast today finding your edge in life and one of the reasons was because I didn't send you the questions in time so I figured I'd pick something you know but but the other reason is is that we talked about beating your genes and really there isn't anything we can do about our genetics per se but we are trying to find our edge in life we're trying to find find happiness and how to optimize our life experience so right I thought that that's that's a really key point now before we get started with the questions of this week one of our listeners who had sent us an email maybe three weeks ago and one of the shows I think episode 62 or 61 mm-hmm it's I he has Korean parents and he was asking how to deal with with some of his lack of motivation via be between trying to not really feeling like he he's very competitive as competitive as his parents want him to be and so what we what he did was he sent us an email we answered after you've answered this question dr. Lau so here is the email dear dr. Lyle I've been meeting with this follow-up email sooner but I just wanted to start off by saying that anyone who might have doubts about the validity of evolutionary biology or your deductive reasoning dr. Lisle of understanding and analyzing human behavior personality should know that with just one in-depth question about one aspect of my daily struggle as an adult you completely and accurately descript things like my upbringing what my parents were like and what really impressed me was how accurately you described what type of person I really was during my late teens through my mid 20s your assessment of why I behaved in this way was dead-on and it helped me start to look at myself again from a new light and helped me to further understand myself and look into the different aspects of my character and why they are there and I just wanted to say I can't thank you enough so pilatus Eric very cool yeah he goes on that's exactly you know and this was great he goes on to say that he's happy to say that I finally found have a stronger understanding of what's motivating me between the different warring aspects of my character and regard to working hard for resources or hardly working thanks again for everything look forward to hearing from you soon so Dan we really appreciate you sending us this email and keeping us updated this is wonderful this is why we do this so and dr. Lau thank you you bet no this is great that's what that's what makes it good all right what do we have all right well we've got we've got a couple of questions here we're going to try to get to as many many as possible and so we will start with one of our we had a lot of questions from last episodes last episode as you remember dr. Lyle we had the caller who who had a question about his micromanaging boss and so okay we've had a lot of emails for that episode a lot of people asking great great questions and we've got some questions left over from previous previous shows as well so we'll get started right away and see how many we can get to so du/dr are there any techniques that you can suggest that a person used to quickly determine where an other person falls in terms of each of the big five personality care tourists --ax specifically upon meeting someone such as maybe a first date or a job interview are there any specific questions that you can ask or behavior signs or displays that you should look out for to determine for example if they're disagreeable an artistic flaky or maybe trying to conceal those traits like say a psychopath okay all right I would say just in general probably if you just as you get to be thinking about the big five plus one ie intelligence and you just sort of mentally practice putting putting people that you run into on you know one or the other side of the bell curve you just sort of do that consistently for a while you'll just sort of thinking it was just be thinking about human beings in terms of in the same way that you already look at their physical presentation in this way so you look at their height weight fitness level physical attractiveness you unconsciously are running bell curves on all these characteristics of people all the time and you you it barely comes to your attention but you're so expert at it you don't even think about it you are also letting personality variances except that you've been doing it without a framework of the big five once you have that framework in your mind then then as you're talking to people about anything you can notice things right away so for example if someone if you're having a conversation and someone contradicts you about anything you already know that they're that they are not a highly agreeable person just even if it any contradiction at all starts telling you that that is a person of at least in the middle of the bell curve or disagreeable and if they contradict you a couple of times in relatively short order then you know they're disagreeable you just don't know how far the and so looking for that that's a characteristic that you just aren't you ascent we never going to see it highly every with many people that's just not something that they do let me think about other things also disagreeable people will also complain about other people so that's a that's a big time red flag about disagreeable now certainly we all complain about some busy to somebody but when when the when the nature of the complaints don't match very well the nature of your relationship with that individual essentially what they are doing is they are leaking their frustration to any old person in the village and try to win win you on to their side too in order to gain political leverage against that evil person who is stealing their time energy boyfriend or whatever the heck it is that they're doing the than what you what you're seeing is disagreeable and you are so that that's another thing that's happening people will leak their conscientiousness in cursory conversation we can we can tell about a great deal about people just by finding out how long like I can instantly assess people let me let me give an example here I did thousands of court-ordered evaluations when I worked in Dallas about 20 years ago for the probation department and so people would come in and there'd be probationers and I would be doing these evaluations for the court and in a matter of a few minutes I had a few questions that I would ask that I could tell a tremendous amount about people in almost no time so I'd ask them where do they live and so if if they hemmed in hot or whatever it is that they said might be interesting live with their mother they live in an apartment they're hanging out with their sister right now whatever that's telling you a great deal and then if they if whatever their place is if they live we simply ask well how long you been there well if they say 16 years that just told you a tremendous amount about their conscientiousness if they say two months then that tells you something else if you use Aska where do you work you know what what do you do how do you make a living they tell you their story and then you say well is how long you been working there if you here 16 years then you know that they're very stable if you hear about a year and say alright where were you before that oh I was with such-and-such well how long we with them on a couple months okay so suddenly this is already telling you a great deal about how unstable their life is that doesn't mean they are doesn't mean they are emotionally unstable it's telling you it's signalling a high likelihood of low conscientiousness now obviously there's going to be circumstances circumstantial issues that are going to be involved here but in just a few cursory con questions we can tell a lot about their agreeable or disagreeable 'ti we can we can actually even see how friendly and pleasant their facial expressions are people that are disagreeable will very often not have any sort of not very much empathic warmth that will go on with their facial expressions sometimes they will but usually they they're very likely well they're they're going to have a a relatively Stern slightly irritated demeanor just because that's that's where they're at people that are open to experience will usually they may signal it or there's very little question that you need to get to before we're going to start to hearing about the openness what do they like to do you know where have they gone what are some things that are really cool what music do they like these are sort of dating style questions but you could ask it will come up in conversation about their range of things that they like to do and how essentially how wild or crazy and that's going to be telling us a lot about their openness to experience actually how people dress will tell you quite a bit about how open to experience that they are so these are all ways people are leaking these cues all over the place they're not just leaking them they're actually advertising them so that that's why once you start to realize that when someone drives a Volvo that is a very different signal than a Pontiac Firebird and when someone is in you know blue gabardine slacks with black shoes and a button-down white shirt that's a very different signal than somebody that's in cowboy boots with jeans that are ripped at the knees and you know a Black Sabbath jacket so and the way people wear their hair is highly significant with respect to their personality so they are signaling their conscientiousness and openness in and their introversion and extraversion and all these domains so all you have to do is look and start running your own contingency pattern a lot of it you already know you just have a nipple sing to it fantastic well we'll have to some some student out there hopefully we'll put together a nice little study on this I'm sure it's already been done with with all this hair and hair patterns and clothes Jeffrey Miller has a book called spent where he talks a little bit about yeah yes yeah so spent is a great book to to educate you how deeply people are using consumer behavior to signal the big five so actually an intelligence he calls up the central six so yeah that spent is highly recommended for for anybody that wants to just dig a little deeper into this fantastic okay our next email is we're going to turn the return the ship a little bit and talk about long distance relationships and so the question is what are the factors at play for a long distance relationship for example I have a friend in her mid-20s in an on-again off-again long-distance relationship with her high school sweet stock.we sweetheart is she just delaying the inevitable breakup um I don't know in other words what we have to do is we have to think about from the from the 10,000 foot view every behavior that you see is a derivative of a cost-benefit analysis and so it is possible one one of the benefits to not breaking up with somebody is that they're going to be all upset and we've got too much empathy and then their feelings are hurt and then they and that actually can be disturbing for us because people with hurt feelings that could be unstable could potentially do us damage they could their anger could really lead them to say bad things about us to the village and therefore damage our reputation very often lovers and ex-lovers are carrying around a little dossier on on who we are and all the naughty things we've done and so forth and therefore we feel we can feel potentially vulnerable so this is those would be some expenses that she could be delaying on it's also true that she could be ambivalent about the relationship in general and that the relationship maybe have a legitimate positives and and therefore you know she's not sure what it is that that is actually in her best interest etc so she could be this could be also a time when it's a convenient situation for her to not be under scrutiny where it is that she can stick her toe and other relationships and flirt and calibrate and see whether or not she could trade up so long-distance relationships are inherently very difficult because of the expenses that they impose on on relationships in general not just monitor expense time and energy expense the ability to monitor partner behavior expense the fact that there can't be any real screwing taking place you know when there's 500 miles apart and so all of these things are calculated as expenses so in order for a long-term relationship to survive the benefits have to be the more striking than they normally would be for to keep a relationship alive so anyway a lot a lot to consider in there and every every relationship is going to be a little bit different because the cost-benefit analysis that each individual is running on this thing is going to be a very dynamic according to the context that they find themselves in in terms of their alternative opportunities and their feelings of vulnerability relative to the cost of the breakup etc a lot of women not a lot a few a few women will stay in relationships indefinitely because they're in with a whack job that they think is going to beat them up or kill them now obviously that's not this one but this guy is talking about but that's an example of a relationship quote having legs and surviving for very long periods of time when when the only benefit is just so that we don't wind up destroyed so that's that's showing you the there's an enormous variance of how the cost-benefit on relationships are going to be computed and so everybody's situation is slightly different if you ask them and nose around and cross-examine them about you know were the relationships at how they're feeling about it etc they will start leaking their ambivalences about the situation and then you can find out why they are going back and forth mm-hmm well that leads perfectly into our next question our next email axial has to do it's called the sneaky mail theory or some sneaky pucker theory oh yeah set it okay but is it is there any merit to the idea that homosexual evolved out of the sneaky mail theory in other words did certain males act in a non suspicious way such as being very submissive and non-threatening toward the female mates of alpha males in order to eventually copulate with them a modern example would be your girlfriend or wife having a gay best friend and you're not worried about him sleeping with her because he's gay yeah this was I believe I believe the person who originated this was Ed Earl Wilson writing in the mid 70s and it was a it was a legitimate hypothesis it was an interesting idea and he got a lot of a lot of bad press behind that which he shouldn't have gotten it was so totally legitimate hypothesis I don't think there's any merit to that hypothesis at all and I've described in another podcast that I I believe that the roots of homosexuality have probably been discovered I'm pretty convinced of it actually and that is that it looks like homosexuality if we think about what is likely driving homosexuality and what the evidence looks like it looks like it's essentially a heavy dose of estrogen in utero and and so high height more highly estrogen eyes women are going to have more highly estrogen eyes children and more highly estrogen eyes children are pretty and so if your mother or in this case I mean it could be carried by the male as well so the same same thing we're going to simplify this in people's minds I so that they could see the lineage effects but it could have come from the father as well so think about a woman who is very beautiful therefore very estrogen eyes and then give us birth to therefore highly estrogen eyes children as you could have a father who's very beautiful and he is highly estrogen isss organized genes and he could be giving birth to highly estrogen eyes children eat too but let's just for the standpoint of mental simplicity think about a woman who is highly estrogen eyes giving birth to highly estrogen eyes children and we're going to say there's going to be two boys and two girls well those boys are going to be prettier than average boys because they're more estrogen eyes and the girls are going to be prettier than average girls because they're more estrogen eyes and if we get enough estrogen in the system one of the one or the two of those boys may their brain may be sufficiently Estrin eyes that it starts tipping over the mating search image mechanisms that are that are essentially sex hormone sensitive and so now we wind up with a gay male and and so it looks like the genes that are responsible for homosexuality at least in males being on the planet are probably the exact same genes that are associated with having women be very pretty and so the way that homosexual genes I eat the gene for homosexuality there isn't a gene for on the sexuality it looks like it's likely to be a side effect of the fact that highly estrogen eyes genes create very beautiful girls and in doing so they also sometimes will cause a gay male to become from from those parents now the evidence for this is that that if you actually look at these sisters of homosexual men the sisters of homosexual men are significantly prettier than the sisters of heterosexual men so that evidence has been collected in and has been reported in the literature so that no offence on my sister nor mine the point is that yeah my sister got more testosterone and I everybody's disappointment in the ability right the bottom line is that this this evidence has been collected therefore this hypothesis is currently supported that doesn't mean it's the last word on the subject but I can tell you that it is an extremely suspicious finding that is Timmy has has is also elegant simple and it is about as politically correct as I think we're ever going to get so at the moment in science I think we have a good at least somewhat tentative but firm looking theory about how this comes about mm-hmm now what do you what do you find safe on bisexual it's going to be yeah sex sexuality in general is is going to be you're going to have situations where that this is essentially messing with the circuitry that would naturally be in the system that would cause essentially sexually dimorphic mating patterns of male and female and so if you start to as you start to tip around these sex hormones you're going to start to find funny little things happening and you're certain get a patchwork quilt of mating mating tendencies so if you actually look at a gay male standard gay male a gay male is not the same thing as a female brain sitting inside of a male body yet it is a hybrid so the what you see is it is very typical I'm not going to say super typical and I'm not going to say complete I'm just going to say it's common for gay males to be extremely promiscuous in their in their sort of behavior and their behavior tendencies the in a way that you just almost never see in females this mimics what goes on inside of heterosexual males if they were in a landscape where they're around a bunch of females who were interested in casual mating which there is no such landscape okay so imagine yourself if you are a normal heterosexual male Nate and you were living in a and as you're walking around there's all kinds of females around of completo ttle varying degrees of attractiveness and the highly attractive females are absolutely interested in casual mating strategy and so now the question is what do you do about this well you've got they've all got Terrebonne strategy in them but they also also have raging casual mating strategy and there's no constraint in the social situation because everybody's willing to play council meeting strategy well in that case you've got a gay pickup bar okay so the what you don't see is you don't see a dominant pair bond strategy inside that culture the and the same the same is exactly so if you think about this a so the gay male basically has a male version excuse me as a female version of a mating search image so when it says who should you be looking for you should be looking for a member of your species that is very attractive very symmetrical has excellent sex until secondary sexual characteristics is ie a good specimen with low mutation mode all great okay now which sucks should you be looking for well we've got enough dust region so we're going to now be looking for a male because that part of our brain sort of things so it were a female and so there you have it so now we have the mating search image is the mating search image of a female and the and it has but it has some other search image characteristics that start looking a little bit more like male search image characteristics in that for example they're particularly focused on youth and attractiveness in skin conditions etc so you're going to look at the pickiness of the male the standard heterosexual male is very interested in attractiveness and fertility cues essentially and you're going to put that also in the gay males frame but you are in but what you don't put in there you don't put in the female the female interest or strong dominance for kappa for pair-bond strategies so that's what you have so the gay male looks like hybrid a bisexual males is another variation of a hybrid that's less common than straight homosexual so you had to somehow get the estrogen levels right down some line there where we wind up literally on both sides of the fence at the same time you can see how in principle that this could this could happen very easily and so that's that's what it looks like out there in the world of human sexuality it looks like these are just variations when when certain certain genes wind up being certain you know gene combinations wind up with either very high estrogen or very high testosterone modes I think that that's going to be largely responsible and maybe completely responsible for for the variation in human sexual psychology that we see mm-hmm all right very good and our next question is actually about the variation in conscientiousness so as we heard last week on the show when you spoke with our caller about dealing with his extremely conscientious boss who wants him to copy him on every single email to the whole company we've got a question after that who and it must have been the boss himself but but the question was have you have you guys ever just house someone who is relatively high on the conscientiousness scale can deal with folks who are a lot lower on the conscientiousness scale without wanting to kill them well the I think that the important thing is that that you have to arrange your life in ways that you're not dependent on people that are low on the conscientiousness scale and you're you're a big part of your job and life is to see to it then very few of the factors of your existence have anything to do with the bulk on just people and so so our caller if they are stumped there are a person here is stumped about how it is to solve such such a problem with the low conscientious person that they're dragging along like an albatross around their neck through this life then they need to write a more specific question and we will answer it about how they're going to get out of that relationship fantastic yeah he followed up and said he's got flaky customers and then neighbors who he had split season tickets with for the Braves but maybe maybe is good for an honor session in the future yeah the flaky who is a flaky relatives what was it for flaky neighbors customers and neighbors and neighbors yeah well the customers are simply responding to cost-benefit contingencies and incentives and so it just means that that the value proposition that he's in competition of offering he is not able because of market forces in order to pin people down because he's got competitors that are that are essentially trying to lure these same flaky people into relationships and therefore he's got he's got a competition problem the somebody that has the market cornered or has their market set doesn't have to deal with flaky anything yeah they simply say a no problem this is your situation this is the expectations and if you don't meet those expectations no problem you can go down the street hi okay and that's that's the end of the flakes but if we if we are not in that situation then then then we are we have a marketing problem because we are under market pressure to broaden out our marketing efforts to include too many people including flakes by the way this is actually an important principle for businesses in general and flakes are expensive they flake so responsible for a high percentage of theft returns non-payment you know collections etc etc so this question is is not as sort of benign and just fun as we think it's actually a very significant problem and it should be in anybody sort of personal floating business model of life that I'm not kidding part of beating the genes just don't get greedy and try to get too much of the market with respect to anything and you should be looking at conscientiousness as a major potential potential expense in any relationship with anybody including Nate's flaky ability to get this thing off the ground it X I just just so everybody know knocked down yeah I texted dr. Lyle before the show started and said for some reason my with a lot of expletives in there my computer's not working my internet decides to screw up every time and if I could afford it I probably would have destroyed everything in my vicinity because it sounds stressful very good so you show your conscientiousness by your great distress program all right let's move on together I just own all right our next next question is actually having to do with parenting dear dr. Lyle I have a 19 year old son who I believe is addicted to gaming and it's can havoc in his personal life with pornography and in his working life Plus although I kept rather strict practices around computer loot use when he was younger and used parental control software I believe that his difficulties at school are also due to computer use of course none of these legally an adult and has been earning his own money and buying his own technology and paying me board I feel I don't have the same level of control as his gaming has taken over more recently he lost his job because he just wasn't showing up and although he says it was due to poor health especially migraines this is only partially true majority of the genuine sick days are caused by his lack of sleep and screen exposure contributing to his my great he seems to have no interest in finding another job or even applying for the unemployment benefit after after listening to your episode on dealing with flaky lazy children and using glow therapy I've given him six weeks notice to move out and fully attend to follow through on this regardless of whether he's found a job or somewhere to live by this time however yep I'd be interested in dr. Lisle thoughts about screen addictions in general and what parents can do to help their children and how I can help my young man in general I'm trying to find a screening of teenagers that can go he seems my son seems angry and depressed and he has very few friends and social interactions offline and refuses to talk to me I feel so worried for his future and I'm completely lost as to what to do I'm just so equipped to deal with this kind of problem looking forward to hearing your thoughts yeah I'm concerned about a few things I don't know all of what's going on with the young men so there are there are details here and I don't want to be like dr. Laura and just tell you exactly what to do when we have to understand that there are you know personality and circumstantial nuances that it's it's not necessarily clear to me what I would do the I do think that I would I would be kindly making sure that I knew where he was going to go in six weeks in other words that he that he would have some we would have some plan like you know of course he may not come up with a plan until a week to go I would follow through and I wouldn't I what we're wanting to do is we're wanting to put the fear of God in him that right now he doesn't believe it and he who knows what the situation is there whether this single parent or there's a this is a man he's got a wife and what the white is going to have to say about kicking their son out their 19 year old son out on the street so there's a lot of variables here but I would be your son does not need to communicate with you about that is one thing that we need to get across here and all that needs to happen is you need to communicate with them and so if you won't stand still for you to talk to them that's ok you can write them a note and you can tell them listen you love them you think that this is what the issue is and you think that he is he's sort of mired in this thing and that but this is the cause of these problems and you really really want him to break free and you know it's difficult and you're pulling for him and one of the things you're needing to do is you're needing to essentially change his circumstances to to make it so that he has to essentially join the world as it is rather than getting sucked into a teenage version a new version of drug addiction which is which is the online gaming your virtual world and we can write that in a handwritten note or typed out note and and you stick it you put a stick it right in his hand or stick it right under his door okay and along with it we say things like you know I'm not sure where you're going to go you don't have to tell me but we I'd be glad to discuss it with you whatever whatever it is that you're thinking I have found out about what the where the homeless shelter is and it turns out that I will make sure that the fees that are responsible there are ten dollars a night or five dollars a night or what on earth it is it may be free that that that's a place that you can go and etc you know there was ID but I would and you might even come up with a couple other suggestions that seemed plausible iein campout in his is his aunt's backyard possibly because his aunt volunteered that maybe you could do that in other words we might give him a solution or two I wouldn't be I wouldn't overwork it and then I would that I would be kind it firm and concerned in other words we are civil and war and loving and supportive and firm okay now remember that there are two basic manipulative strategies that people use the the number one manipul and actually there's certainly 3 3 is just rational discourse and cost-benefit exchanges but I'm talking about when we use the word manipulative it has a pejorative slant to it important to pay attention to in other words this is sneaky and and somewhat underhanded and and disturbing and yanking on eyes parts of human nature in a half way unfair fashion those two those two strategies are anger and tears so anger is a threat that says you are treating me unfairly and I'm going to impose costs on you until you retract and you make it up to me so this young man is signaling anger anger anger towards his parent basically saying you're being unfair unfair unfair unfair unfair okay and the parent is not being unfair and so we are not going to bite on that anger we're going to be kind and pleasant but we are we will recognize that guilt is a natural derivative of somebody leveling anger at us because guilt is a is a checking mechanism to make sure that we are you know to find out wait a second are we being unfair and if we are being unfair we could think this through and then figure out how to make it sessions in this case the parent is not being unfair and the parent needs to be concerned and wise and responsible at directing how things are going to go and then force the hand of the child because basically the kids got it is some kind of quasi addictive process that's going on here in all probability unless the kid but we keep the lines of communication open by basically saying I'm more than happy to talk this out with you and to and to listen to you and listen to what's on your mind okay and if you want a therapist to talk to you know talk to me about that and we will talk about the room and I'd be happy to talk to this this young man over the phone if you wanted to talk to me now so the idea is is that we are warm and loving and supportive and intelligent and firm okay now they will continue to threaten and then once they figure out that the their anger and threaten of withdrawal that the relationship won't work which is what he's doing right now sooner or later he made in you know the eleventh hour we may see a bunch of Tears okay so tears are actually a method to shift the the communication of the relationship away from threatening essentially what is actually an adult to adult type of a threat and instead it's to shift the the meta communication that's involved to parent-child so children are by nature more helpless and therefore needing a parental essentially altruistic behavior in order to protect them and so when people whine and they cry what they are doing is that they are then consciously trying to activate altruistic mechanisms inside the person on the other side of the communication so so this is a course happened to me whenever I wanted to raise and they said no and then I started cry no the point is that this is a this is actually this could happen sort of it at any time at any time the wife I actually watched my father who is just an unbelievable difficult tough guy when suddenly he was in the hospital and in trouble the guy was sobbing and saying how much he loved his family it's like oh now you love us now you love us but you really need us suddenly it it's occurring to that stone-age brain how valuable we all are that that was that was an musing and touching moment in my life when when that up into my father but on any rate this young man may cascade into tears at some eleventh hour or in some some period of time and when that happens we have to realize that one of the knee-jerk reactions to be on the other side of that is to be very altruistic because it's yanking a parental circuit don't do it just just keep the communication nudge it back to adult to adult and say uh you know I can understand that this is very difficult and it is hard I know you're going through things that I don't want to see you suffer but let's talk about you know what's your plan and we make that child who's 19 years old perfectly intelligent intelligent enough to run a computer we make him essentially force his brain away from a childlike posture that is looking at trying to drag resources out of us it's all okay and you can stay another six months and so sorry so sorry okay that we force that communication back to adult to adult by essentially not looking at him with pity and not looking at him like a broken thing that can't manage this problem but instead we look at him as a young adult who were concerned about his choices and we want to help him make better choices but he's in charge he's grown up and we tell him well you're grown up you know I'm saying and and and you and I are always going to agree on what was best for you and but I I am behind you I'll be as supportive as I can with any decisions that you make and we keep giving that tone back to where they realize damn damn the tears aren't working so they don't they aren't consciously trying to do this that they are vaguely aware that that's what they're trying to do and when it turns out it doesn't work they they can literally shift buck up and start realizing oh my god I'm actually going to have to be self responsible that's hard to believe okay and so and sometimes what was required United to the homeless shelter when they find out that you weren't bluffing and suddenly it becomes important they better get their act together so you once again they don't have to communicate with you relax you communicate with them that's good enough okay and and we recognize that they are threatening us with withdrawal the relationship with their anger that's fine that's just a threat don't worry about it don't panic about that don't panic about their tears that they're not a four year old that we have to you have to shelter them from every little bump and bruise here we don't need to do that either so in general very kind warm loving supportive helpful in what it is to suggest us that we're making and sensible okay but at the end of the day we are not panicking over their distress and that is the that is the general strategy for dealing with all situations of this Clint
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