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Episode 64: Dealing with a Micromanager - An On-Air session with Dr Lisle
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good evening everybody this is Nate G with the beat your genes podcast so you guys ever wanted to be a fly on the wall and a therapist office I know I have and that's actually one of the reasons why I've started this podcast today we actually have an opportunity to do that today on the show dr. Lyle is gonna be talking with a caller about how to deal with the supervisor who's constantly micromanaging everything that he does it's a lot of common traps that people fall into to remedy this could be things like engaging in long discussions with them trying to train them differently maybe even waiting it out and then in some cases even just blowing up and getting into big arguments so these are pretty noble attempts but I can imagine they're pretty frustrating that even with our best efforts this kind of behavior is gonna continue so during the course of this on-air session I want everybody to listen as dr. Lyle first establishes rapport with the caller and then he carefully uncovers evidence of this managers long-standing behavior and then finally once the caller has clarity on precisely what's happening a reasonable solution starts to become clear and this is what we call beating our genes is once we understand and have clarity on the situation we can now start to find what's the most effective solution for our happiness [Music] hey how you doing no too bad sir how you doing very good good I will listen thanks for for the call and I'm sure so I'll just all I don't know much about your situation so just sort of fill me in and give me the give me the broad strokes of what you're what you're dealing with okay so I see about six weeks ago I started a new job at a company and my this was a position that I've been doing now for at least about 10 years in the general field of of my work I've been doing it for close about 23 years and I found out that very very quickly actually that my new supervisor is actually quite a bit of a micromanager now the unique situation for me is that oh we don't have a common office or anything I would rope remotely so we don't have no direct contact on a daily basis um but I can sense that he has a tremendous need for knowing why I am doing at any given moment throughout the day so mom he has actually requested certain things I think are a little bit uh I don't know crossing some boundaries if you will so for instance I would be um requesting that I copy him on every email that I send to anyone else in the company um also maybe an itinerary of uh kind of what I'm going to be working on throughout the day so um actually be a little bit proactive I'm sort of putting putting together a list of things I would work on twelfth day because I kind of looked into the area of people who are micro managers and try to figure out what was driving them and you know being the current theme was the fact that they really needed a lot of information so I was trying to provide a lot of information and so I put together like you know today you know you know a thirty in the morning and sent out an email hello sir here's we're going to be working on throughout the and then just recently he actually said my email back to me with the number of minutes allotted to each one of the tasks I identified in my email Wow yeah yeah and also for my job I have to travel quite a bit and so I buy plane tickets and then you know like over the weekend he says you could have bought them cheaper and gives me a list of pricing from other vendors and things of that nature and it's just it's pretty it's pretty remarkable so right I'm just kind of wondering what are some I guess methods to dealing with a person like this and maybe what's driving them the interesting thing is we actually did meet face to face for a while young and he came off as much more you know not as in-your-face controlling but right when you know when we're not together in the same room you know being email the level of control seems to jump quite a bit so yeah so I'm just kind of curious as to what I can do to actually um deal with this because you know my attempt so far actually mate I think things may be a little bit worse so and you know I just kind of just kind of interested in the psychology of people who are like this because I'm more of the mind you know you can tell me what to do and I can figure out how to do it you know because I have been doing this for 23 years so I probably know what I'm doing but you know the dictating not only the what's but the house is a little bit overbearing and actually it's kind of demeaning in a way to so and like said I just started at the company I would like to stick around everyone else they work with there seem to be very reasonable decent people I just gotten this one individual and unfortunately I report to him so that's right that's good at the broad brush of the issue yeah my first question would be how many reports does he have how many people are in essentially your position relative to him I think it's like two other people in total oh not much right right but that's not a lot of reports does he have production that he is supposed to be doing independent of supervising three of you he does he has his own you know it's kind of like tech support sales position and so he does have his own accounts but although the other sales people in the region you know have their own accounts and he is kind of responsible for the total combined number for every one as far as you know sales and growth in the region and all of that so ok so are you one of those people are you doing something different something a little bit different so I would okay those guys but I'm sort of the engineer and I'm the tech support person so I am a shared resource amongst these three individuals so ah ok so he's actually so let me get this straight so he's actually like a sales sales manager kind of a guy correct correct ok and then even got two other people that do what he does but each of them independently have accounts that they service but he he is sort of the head of the group so that their numbers impact how he quote well is doing his job right right and then I help all three of these guys kind of write do their thing and try to make stuff happen so right and these other two guys they are they're your relationship with them is entirely different than that with him yeah yeah I mean I don't think there were more co-workers not you know a superior subordinate kind of thing Yeah right and and with them because he's doing the same thing that they're doing actually as a production person we have any sense that he's micromanaging them or do we know it's interesting one of his other reports so he doesn't micromanage but their personality styles are extremely similar uh-oh I'm not sure if this guy doesn't even you know very type a kind of people yeah the other guy he's probably like in its early 60s he might have a few more years left to retirement so I really don't think it cares all that much so okay like I just you know he likes to talk you like you know he likes to hear himself talk so just let them talk don't let it bother you and stuff and you know I guess it's a lot easier to say that when you know you're already of the House paid forward to three years away from retirement as opposed to my situation where I probably got about a good another 20 years or so to go and right same thing in the house payments too so my financial situation will build more precarious so right right so we have to yeah I think so it was this older guy his attitude is that this boss isn't so bad you know he well he believes that you know he's bad but I mean as far as the micromanaging aspect is right and um but um I think he believes that there's no repercussions for maybe ignoring his advice you know or right reductions if that's I'm kind of getting you know you know yeah he'll send you in that - Graham email or he'll give you a nasty phone call or whatever and just um blow it off and I'll just you know water under the bridge that kind of thing and that's I just I darted so I'm not very comfortable with go out so no I understand that makes perfect sense but it is but what's interesting about it is that this guy's behavior the boss's behavior is reasonably consistent for at least been one employee and so it's it's the same tactic so or we're seeing which of course you would expect because obviously this is personality but it but an interesting thing is the fact that the behavior has persevered even in a long-term relationship with this employee so yeah it's true right so that's in other words it's nothing about that this is not it's likely that his behavior he that he is more anxious now this is all being driven by anxiety and so yeah this this reminds one of for example an anorexic anorexia nervosa or it also reminds one of obsessive-compulsive disorder people that are washing their hands all the time and things like this this is the same level of edgy anxiety if you essentially stop at a seedy person from washing their hands they're going to be mighty upset okay or if you don't wash your hands you know the same if you would you wash it in hands I just saw you you pet the cat and now I'm not going to wash my hands they get angry mm-hmm okay they're there and that anger is it feels very unfair to them that you are essentially risking their health by not washing their hands it seems in your hands it seems entirely reasonable to them and now you're going to touch everything in the environment and then they're going to touch what you touched and then they're gonna have whatever disease the cat had on it and that veteran what's driving this so irritability and anxiety go hand in hand okay and and so and obviously anorexic strive their parents that would be crazy with how many calories are in the food and and you know are we sure and does that oil in it and let's measure it and why can't I take a scale to the restaurant find out how big potato is is this is this isn't and what you're saying so this guy is OCD is essentially what we're looking at and if he's not formally OCD it doesn't really matter it's exactly the same personality and right on this this personality used it should be obvious it's a perfectly useful place in middle management so if you were flying to find a perfect mental manager you would find somebody that's OCD and you would turn them loose and make what life miserable for everybody around them that you could relax if you're above them because you know hey no problem I know that everything's going to be in shipshape under under Jones over there because Jones a frickin nut right so that's what this is okay so all that you can really do that I can see is that you can do two things which are going to be doing essentially simultaneously and the first thing is is that we're going to continue to we're going to continue to well I'll tell you what we don't do what we don't do is we don't tell the the OCD germaphobic that we're not going to offer hands because they will escalate okay they're their pain is much much greater than Europe in and so is his anxiety that you will be the he will be found out that you misused the company resources spent thirteen dollars more on a hotel room his like he's so anxious about that that somebody could view his little reports and that they could say that actually why did this guy saw it stay at a Hilton Garden Inn when he could have stayed at a at a Days Inn for God's sakes we know those are $13 cheaper okay oh we have that conversation actually it's amazing that you just bring that up so that's the time yeah so that's that's what's taking place there so just to understand what you're dealing with is a very very anxious person and what eventually OCD is is this is hyper conscientiousness and and what conscientiousness is or hyper consciousness is the overestimation of the worst case scenario so this guy is walking around to him his life looks like a minefield okay it's like at any minute somebody could say hey how is that what's that IT guy doing he's working remotely you can't see what he/she no he's probably sitting his desk and eating Fritos and watching you know reruns of the Brady Bunch and wasting the company's money oh my god Sam saying and so is what this is what's raging through this guy's brain is what's happening yeah now this doesn't you know believe me in a special version of hell if I ever do anything really bad I will be wind up in hell and I will be supervised by somebody with OCD okay yes that's what it is now the what do we do with those CD people well I tell you what their spouses do and that is that they they mostly wash their hands and then once in a while they get so frustrated that they finally blow up on them yeah I mean they say no you know I'm not doing it and then there's a big fight and then divorce is threatened and everybody's upset then everybody has to calm down for a few days then we go back to normal and then you're washing your hands again yeah because basically their craziness is more potent than your irritation is really what about this because they feel like those life is at stake okay so sky feels like his life is at stake he's got he's got a whole bunch of little causal dominus to go on a line but if he loses his job because they put him in his position and then if it turns out that he wasn't looking into you know the hotel bills then he and that means he's gonna lose his job and that means he's gonna lose his house and that mean to this that and the other men is pretty suited him and his get to his wife and everybody else's family's starving to death and on the corner of you know Pico Boulevard with us with a couple pencils in it hey I mean this is this is the dude Oh No yeah I can definitely feel it and that's what happening yeah probably when he's in person and he's looking at you he's he's less anxious because he knows you're not ripping off the company when he's cut his eyes right on you right okay like okay I can see the size for this five minutes I can see the guy with my own eyes and so the you know nothing bad can happen and he's also looking at you and you're making all the kind of responsible noises and you've got like an appropriate amount of low-grade anxiety you know because he's quote the boss and so you're exerting some deferential cues which tells him that he's not in trouble that if he uses his terroristic you're likely to respond okay that's more or less covered up now what we can do is we're doing what you are doing it's just we we essentially try to rather trying to recalibrate him into reason which is what our first instinct is is to say look you're you're crazy you're unreasonable I don't I've never had to put up with crap at this level before I'm a completely responsible professional just leave me alone and it's going to be done fine just relax for God's sakes get off my back okay but you can't do this and it's a worthless enterprise so instead what we want to do is we want to flood his circuit with data okay so we want to be smart at setting up your little systems like you are to constantly be feeding him a never-ending stream of evidence that you are not wasting the company's money in that he can't be criticized now over some time what may happen is that he will you know his ain't we'll be to too great and he will occasionally blow up like he's obviously done at this older guy and I mean and the older Dan he will get unreasonable at the level of you know County each calorie in the potato and what happens if I cut the potato I out does it now have 364 calories or 366 you know I got to worry about that okay so occasionally occasionally your urine fastidiousness will not satisfy him and he'll be upset and in your natural reaction is you know what you need to be recalibrated I need to hit you over the head with my anger to let you know that your way unfair the problem is is it won't work because he's OCD so he will simply escalate back and it's a trap you know he's not trying to trap you he just simply cannot tolerate the anxiety hey I think I've never heard of a boss sweating over a few dollars in an expense report okay so that you know there's wacky people I've but I have heard of those TV people who you know were in production and would would negotiate over three cents on the tacos you know for a hundred people and that I do know about okay so this is this is very similar to a lot of OCD things that you're going to see so what do we do we we flood his circuit we when he goes off and he's anxious we don't particularly defend ourselves because all that will do is it'll escalate and it will activate greater anxiety because he will feel like you and he don't see eye to eye on what is fair and reasonable and therefore see how cannot trust you to be monitoring yourself in a way that he would be okay with okay so when he when he goes off our thing is to say oh gosh now I see sorry okay now this seems like a outrageously wimpy but it's not what we're dealing with Annette and so are obviously what we're doing is we're trying to not have a fiasco in the new company while who you are and and how you do things you know and your professionalism and abilities are more completely assessed by other people in the company so that we can be angling to get the hell out of that section that's that's obviously what we're up to how big is the company it's pretty small actually and to be honest with you I think they're kind of getting themselves position to be sold off here just like right through to three years or so so and then with that will obviously come some changes to the organization so right now if it tough it out that long there's probably a pretty good chance that there will be some shifts and whatnot playing so it will be some major changes and you very likely wouldn't wind up under him the how how let's let's ask about this question how how easy or difficult is it for you to find similar employment with a similar company hmm let's see here um there were guys unfortunately there just like two of them I just turned down not too long ago so like no problem okay all right everybody might be another one coming up here pretty soon though that I've heard out that might be say like four to six months out so right right okay so so it's possible and yeah I would say that I would say in general these these people you know that they're never change so this is an intractable situation there's no amount of goodwill you can build up with him he will never trust you and you know don't take it personal the issue is is that this anxiety is extreme and so he's going to be just a miserable person that will of course never lose his job because he will be over killing every little detail and the person above him can relax because they don't have to worry about him they've got seven other reports they're taking and the one report they don't have to worry about is this guy okay and they don't really care what happens to people under him ah that is not their problem so so yeah I would say I think you're in a situation where the you're sort of running a cost/benefit on leap leaping from the known crazy to a new situation if there's a new job that comes up and the new job is statistically very likely to be better but not necessarily so in some ways I mean it sounds like this company do you feel like the compensation is solid and good yeah I mean compared to all the other competing offers a definite came in on the high side which is kind of what likely to take the leap and yeah you know with my conversations with this guy over the phone I mean pretty much standard kind of conversations but right that was before I was reporting to him and I don't know didn't want to reveal a few things in the process you know himself ah guys sort of knew you did not believe me when some OCD guy starts going out with a hot girl he knows he's OCD but he doesn't reveal it she's going to be washing and okay or there's gonna be a problem so yeah so that's that's that's what went down here he neglected to inform us that he is half crazy and okay and so yeah it you have to look at the whole you know whatever the new now when it comes to this company possibly being sold is there any upside in it for you in terms of stock or like that um yeah if I do stick around for that two to three years or whatever much invested in some stock and if the price goes up considerably it actually might turn out to be a substantial sum of money per sale potentially serious money okay yeah well so you you're these this is a fancy lottery ticket and and that's what it is and so you sort of have to to run the cost benefit at the end and does it look like a two to three year target is reasonable or is that pie in the sky oh whether I can maintain my sanity that long um what I mean oh yeah they'll and yet basically has to be a dollar to sanity kind of trade-off here um yeah yeah it's um we haven't had a real you know throw down you know knock knockout drag-out kind of fight yeah and that's when I'm right you know so far everything's just been kind of little cuts here and there but uh and I'm hoping I can keep dodging the bolts time goes on but kind of to your point there just maybe that one moment where it just ramps up and it's yeah wrapped around the axle about for other things and then I do the give them a phone call at the exact wrong moment and suddenly you know yeah I'm getting an earful or whatnot so yeah like said I'm hoping to avoid it but we'll see I in the meantime I will probably still keep my eyes open you know because so for the stock there is a vesting schedule associated with that yeah now if I get another offer here coming up then I will make sure that that also includes a vesting schedule and if that is six months out I'm not going to really come along and lose like six months worth of vesting here which is basically nothing itself so in the beginning it's a lot easier for me to make a shift if I get a similar off or as time goes on they put those golden handcuffs on gets right and actually more and more painful so right yeah so it's either get out soon or stick around and hopefully I can take the blows yeah but yeah I would yeah I think my strategy I mean my strategy every situation is different you'll have to be weighing the cost benefit but in general I mean my attitude would be you get out as soon as you get a similar offer because you know unless this is a real big shop where you can move laterally to somebody else team this that you were under this freak for maybe three or four years okay waiting to Andrey years could be four to five years and then you're into your submit and you got three more coming and I mean no yeah so they will the only upside the others they have a unique technology here and I was kind of looking to get skilled and Alan may may can go out there and make consulting for this you know after like a year or two or something like that so that was the only other syllable thing for it but ya know well I you know I can't do two years about sweep you know that's right gonna work for me so I would say okay one other sort of one last bit of advice when you were when you're thinking about if he blows up and you know all hell breaks loose I want you to keep this in mind and that is that the people escalate in their anger when they are when they are essentially determined that they have to win it could be extremely anxious and you know fearful lights on the line at which point they can become essentially hyper adrenaline and enraged they think about a think about a mother and her child is being attacked by a dog or somebody human or something like this and so the tremendous fear drives tremendous emotion the so this guy could you know get extremely anxious about something a very upset and therefore really come after you however if we understand uh kind of is we're trying to get it in your mind now if we understand that this is actually not the same thing as being a disagreeable bastard okay he is not a disagreeable bastard he say hyper conscientious nut that's a different thing now now for awful lot of intents and purposes they can look the same okay and if they have power over us it feels like it's kind of the same but it's really not the same and so if you look at issue and you understand him I mean either way actually the when you're in a hierarchy with it with a person like this if you're in the hierarchy with it with a person is disagreeable it's it's very hard to talk yourself out of being really really pissed off back at them okay yeah there was even though you know it might not be the right thing to do but in some senses it may not be the wrong thing to do either because they they are only way to to get in any negotiation at all is to push back and to tell them that they're being unreasonable but with a hyper conscientious anxious person it's not quite the same situation and so when you realize I think of a little kid who is screaming because they don't want to leave their mother and go to school okay and they're like really really upset and you're frustrated because you want to just drop the kid off at school and leave you know I'm saying and it's just clinging to the mother and it's just raising hell and the thing is you can create it but it's very useful to realize no this is just an extremely sent for anxious child okay and what we're going to do with that super anxious child even though you want to swat it and throw it in the car what you do is you just try to calm calm it all down and be reassuring okay and so because when this when this guy is actually if he ever goes off on you it's going to be fine because we will have predicted it and we will understand it and your response even though part of you will be thinking this is an ass and what I need to do is to fight fire with fire push some anger back because he's being unreasonable and I mean so part of your mind will be making that inference but from the discussion and as we just behavior and you learn and you get this firmly in mind you'll realize no that's not really what it is he's not particularly disagreeable he's mild moderately disagreeable which is useful but really the big issue is he's hyper conscientious hyper anxious and so when he starts yelling at you it's like a little kid who's lost it okay and so now we just speak very calmly and we reassure him say I got I know you're upset you know no I know I need to take care of this you know I'm with you no problem I will take care of it you see if we talk like that being inside the mechanic will come out of a system okay so we won't get World War 3 with him we will get a five-alarm fire but we can quickly deescalate down to a two alarm fire okay so that that's how you survive within that case the main while you're looking to get a ticket out of there or singe can okay got a real sooner peace because there's there's no fix okay all right okay yeah I mean initially I just like I just kind of thought it was just establishing a basis of trust but it you know in the anthem my other co-workers have been with them for years it doesn't writing like that ever really gets established so I appoint yeah I think that it probably gets established a little bit so his anxiety problem 15% you know I mean after a good news Allah dear but the truth was that no a nut is a nut is a nut circuits or circuit parts or parts and this is what you got okay okay no well I appreciate your time and I kind of wish it was a little bit better story there but if it is what it is so but yeah so in the meantime I'll just flutter the circuits with data and try the de-escalation in the meantime and then take the right manner yeah you got it we'll we'll do it all right hearing much every time I appreciate it [Music] we want to thank our listener for calling in and talking about a situation call our names may be changed to keep things confidential and if you want to call in and talk with dr. Lyle for our podcast feel free to email me at beat your jeans at gmail.com to schedule a good day and time or if you want to do a private session with dr. Lyle you can reach him at his website at esteem dynamics org
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