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Episode 3: High Cost of High Expectations
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Today what we're gonna be talking about is Expectations and how it plays a role with motivation now I mean, I grew up watching movies and at the line with movies as always you can do anything you want You can be anything that you want All you have to do is work hard enough and you can basically achieve anything And when I was growing up, I was a bit of a smart aleck as well I can't exactly jump to the moon if I wanted to no matter how hard I work Or I'll never be able to dunk a basketball because I'm maybe not tall enough Or maybe I'm not going to ever going to have it as if somebody's really tall So we're going to be talking about the this this idea of expectations and motivation and whether or not they go hand in hand Ready to it. What do you have to say on that? Dr. Lisle: well The expectations and motivation absolutely to go hand in hand, Nate It's exactly what you're thinking and the relationship between those two things is is profound and extremely important for people's well-being the the sort of Subtext in our culture. Is that that people believe that They believe all kinds of, I would say semi-believe all kinds of ridiculous notions like for example if you believe in yourself enough You can do anything or that anybody can be anything and this is obviously ridiculous, however There's a there's a there's a thread there's little threads of truth in it But the problem is is that those kinds of concepts will actually wind up putting pressure on people in ways that is often not really productive for them and counter to what's in their best interest for Feeling good about themselves the the fundamental problem with having expectations Very high it seems like this is a very benign Pleasant thing to do and very encouraging thing to do for example with parents to children To tell children that they could become anything and do anything I don't see any real problem with this when we're talking about a four year old or a six year old that really you know, it doesn't have Any concept of what it is they're looking at but when we start talking about people that are a little bit older 12 year old 14 yo, etc. this starts to Confuse them in the following way and that is that they can see that what you're saying is not true and yet you are you are essentially putting expectations on them that they can't meet so One way this will play out is often parents will have very high expectations for their children with respect to grades and They will if a child does well in a given semester So parents have high expectations for children that are a bit above their abilities. Let's say you've got a bright child and the parents and in one semester of their life, they actually get straight A's This is hmm. I'm not just sort of talking about a balance here. It's actually a fairly common kind of occurrence that I've seen Several times in my clinical practice over the years so you may have someone who has done something and had quite an excellent outcome at one point and maybe a straight-a semester or a year and then what the parents will then do is tell the child that they are a straight A student and tell everybody hearing that they're a straight A student and And now what happens is the expectation is that if they really work hard that they can achieve this Now that may or may not be true, but it's very unlikely that it is not true. And So what will happen is that the child will, is put in a bind that if they work hard they're going to fall short of expectations and Therefore they're going to be a disappointment and if they work hard and manage to meet the expectations nothing special has really happened But all they've done is meet expectations. And so this is actually what's seems From the parents' point of view as a very benign encouraging strategy For for talking to their kids about their goals Winds up actually being pretty brutal and putting the kids in a bind That they're in essentially almost in a no-win situation Nate: So does the kid compute all this in their heads consciously or what's the process? Dr. Lisle: Yeah, the this is actually The kid is actually running a very sophisticated Cost-benefit analysis that will result in them generally not trying very hard at all and very often Making a concerted display of of not trying and possibly flunking out at least in in You know selected classes. So let me explain why this is why there's a a counterproductive what I call kick over the table anti motivation, this is a Very interesting characteristic of human beings, but you're not going to see throughout the animal kingdom. It's really specific to us. Let me let me describe why we have this and how such tendencies would have evolved the Think back if you were to go to an ancient Stone Age situation where you had a young man that would say 16 or 17 years old and he had been observed by the village to be sort of an average hunter average athlete so we suppose he was average attractive. So he would have been seen as average mating material by the young women of his generation So they would have pegged him for the middle of the bell curve up to ten young men in the village He would have been ranked at number five more or less he was gonna he was gonna struggle with that those parameters for the rest of his life, of course now, the However, let's suppose he goes out on his very first hunt and he comes across with a wildebeest with its foot stuck on a snake Hole and he bludgeons it over the head and drags it home And there's a big feast and now everybody is thinking that they have missed about on this guy that he actually has a lot more Chops than anybody thought and so what's gonna happen now, Of course, he's not going to tell him the true story of what actually happened. He'll tell some fancy story about how the saber-tooth cat was on his left and a lion on the right and and how he maneuvered brilliantly the situation to get the wildebeest so anyway, the upshot of this is that he will actually have more what I call esteem or more status than he deserves. So his his Rating in the village just went from a five to a seven He just went up the dominance hierarchy in terms of his heterosexual attractiveness and his general esteem in the village well, so this is Nate: So are you suggesting that young men are willing to lie just to get some sex? Is that what you're suggesting? Dr. Lisle: Yes, young men are willing to lie just to get some sex. They are willing to exaggerate Nate: I'm was so glad we have this show so that we can figure this out Dr. Lisle: Yes, that's good believe it or not, you know now I of course never done such thing myself It has only the Stone Age ancestors that did that Thank God some of my stone age ancestors did this so they got some sex so that I'm here because otherwise I would've made it Nate: So does that mean that this kid this younger kid if he Doesn't engage in that type of manipulation. He's not going to be able to pass on his genes in the way. He wants was that That's what I'm understanding from that Dr. Lisle: Yes. Well, that would be true. In other words. He's he's uh He's in he's under sexual competition So he is he's being slated for the middle of the bell curve that that's what's going to happen All of us are are sort of kicking and screaming to to try to get up higher in the food chain with respect to the genes that are shilling for Sexual reproduction, so that's that's the nature of all animal life That's what animals are actually doing. Now, we start figuring this out in the first grade at Valentines Day so I actually I don't remember first grade, but I very clearly remember second grade Valentine's Day because The teacher put these little envelopes with our names on them at the front of the room and all the kids would drop Their Valentines in the envelopes of the different kids and there was some of us that got a lot more than others I got like a nice solid average amount, but I remember a girl named Kim That was the real looker in the class. Her's was full Okay Nate: See, I remember my second grade Valentine's also and I didn't know what to do, you know Second grade, so I asked my dad my dad said well, we're gonna sit down we're gonna make Valentines to all the girls in the class and then see which one reciprocates So we sat down and wrote I remember little hearts and all this other stuff Dr. Lisle: Yeah, good. That was your dad was a good salesman I'm here There you go. That's right. That's why you're here you so you sold somebody you got it. Yeah That's beautiful Nate. So this is what happens we are from the time were at about the second grade you come out of the ether of Young life and you realize oh boy, there's a competition here and You didn't ask to have the competition. You're just stuck with it and You're on a treadmill that there's no stopping. And this is just how life is and what's happening is On the other side of the sack other side of the fence the others the opposite sex is observing and Cataloging and rating and on our side of the fence We are observing and cataloging and rating and everybody's grandstanding for all they're worth to try to get what I call the magic 10%, which are going to try to go up 10% in in the food chain in order to get slightly better genes than you're giving So this is a great big monstrous poker game it's actually what it is and I have a name for this thing. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah. No. Yeah, you can say something intelligent after I'm done so I Unlikely hold it I call this the Darwin derby. Okay, so it's just a race It goes absolutely nowhere You just you just spin around the track and it starts all over again the next Generation and then you race around the track as best they can and then they go to the next generation all that's happening is the genes are jumping from one old lame horse to the next and so that's your that your lot in life is - Your job is to actually what I call "win your Heat" in the Darwin Derby. Your your job is to try to pull a little Bit ahead of where it is that you were before You try to grab a little bit of fancier jeans than you had that you came into the earth with and so in doing so You you are statistically Increasing the likelihood that your genes will be on the planet a thousand years from now and so of course no Organism has the slightest conceptual Insight into this including essentially zero humans know this, but this is in fact how nature works and we are thrust into this mess whether we want to be in it or not and we are trying to win our heat in the Darwin Derby and So this kid the 17-year old kid in the Stone Age His job is to win his heat in the Darwin Derby and so he's trying to Go up the food chain Now he's not going to get the 10 and he's not going to get the 9 And he's almost certainly not going to get the 8 but the 7 might be in range if she believes that he's actually a Superstar that has great hunting abilities. So that's why he is in no rush to get Get clear with the village about what really happened on this hunt so this this extra aura that he has over him he may his job is to try to keep that or For as long as he can so this is now critical. If human beings were honest and straightforward about their about their genetic Benefits and cost that they would bring to relationships then dating would look rather funny. People would come in with no makeup plain tightly fitting clothes and They would sit down and the guy would bring his portfolio of investments and the girl would would bring her driver's license that shows her true age and Hair color 10 there would be an honest vetting of the of the gene quality of everybody that's involved and instead what's happening is everybody's out there bluffing and grandstanding and hiding their Liabilities and emphasizing their assets. It's essentially like selling potato chips. That potato chip bag They give a great big bag with half of a bag of potato chips and they have to because the competitors are doing exactly the same thing one bag of potato chips over and So the same thing is happening in the dating arena Everybody's pushing hard to try to over sell the genes that they are selling By a reasonable margin, so that is it isn't obviously ridiculous But you're trying to more than put your best foot forward Everything that you put forward is the best that you can figure out how to do it Nate: That sure explains, I should stop wearing Speedos on my dates You know this this makes a lot of sense to me but but what do you say to people who say you know gosh Dr. Lisle, this sounds pretty cynical and a bit a bit depressing when you think about it like this Dr. Lisle: Well, I suppose one could be cynical and depressed about it. But the truth is it just sort of is what it is we are used to it all of us and it's it's no more cynical than looking at the free market and realizing that every company is trying to outwit the other companies and that when they Advertise they are almost certainly over advertising so I mean I don't know what car that you can look at an ad for that didn't win some fancy award that is being you know Narrated by some narrator with a golden set of pipes in his in his head That sounds beautiful. And we just we get this feeling that this car is this fantastic car Well, no more fantastic than the seven other models that its competing with but the but this is marketing You know marketing is all about Trying to get in in principle if you think about it No, no manufacturer has any any in principle edge over any other manufacturer? So anything that you can do I can do just as well I just have to find out how you do it copy it so really it's about marketing and so When it comes to the mating game in humanity or throughout nature, what you see is very very intensive and efforts at marketing and in fact If you go into the woods and what you hear is a bunch of noise from all the animals in the woods Essentially the only noise you're hearing is males Screaming in the forest that I have the best genes mate with me. That is what it is that you're hearing in the village Excuse me in the forest and that is effectively when you when you're listening to human conversation Particularly males talking to females that they're attracted to that's more or less what they're saying No matter what though actual words are that's what's going on Nate: Hmm that explains why I got kicked out of the nightclub over the weekend because I went in there and I screamed I have the best genes mate with me and all the girls looked at me and said What are you doing? Evidence, you know, why are you wearing a speedo? Okay, so this kid gets the wildebeest all so that he can mating, you know mating rights to the you know higher quality females Dr. Lisle: That's correct. Nate: You know would that make him so then what happens? Dr. Lisle: Okay. Now let's look what happens because it's it's fascinating. What happens is is that he's uncomfortable because he knows that he's getting more credit than he deserves and So he knows that he will be found out but he also knows that there's some length of time before they're going to figure this out and So he's motivated To make sure that their that their detection abilities are muted So if he can keep them in the dark for a while He's more likely to get laid by the the six of the seven and if he does there's some significant statistical chance that he will wind up a father with better genes than he gave and So this is in fact the deep game that's going on in nature And so our young guy is just playing the same game that did every walrus plays He's just playing it slightly different with the human cards instead of the walrus cards So whenever you see some some animal and nature sort of puff up as it struts in front of a female Or watch the peacock feathers. The Peacocks are just going about their business and then a female walks by a Peehen walks by and then boom, there's the human equivalent of peacock feathers. And so And this is what's going to happen So this guy's now puffed up Looking fancier that he really is and in hoping to sell these genes to some buyer who's about to get duped now the so the the So he's motivated to keep them in the dark and this is what gets critical. So let's suppose there's a hunt four weeks Later, so there's going to be another big hunt It will be very smart of this guy to see to it that he does not go on the next hunt So it will be strategically advantageous if he sprains his ankle one day before the next hunt Or otherwise has some something that he has to do that keeps him from doing their because maybe he can Delay this for another thirty days and take another few shots if you will that at the genes So this is uh, this is what he is designed to do is to figure out how to delay and defer and to fiddle around Essentially to avoid the betting and this is precisely what is going to happen to every child who's their adult their loving adult parent Tells them that they're brilliant that they're fantastic that they're greatly talented, etc. Any over-the-top praise will result in that child knowing that they have more status than they deserve in the mind of that parent and So this dynamic isn't just doesn't just happen in the mating arena It happens in any arena of human relations where there are resources on the other side of the table that we're trying to trade for to mine and so in this case the child would like To get continue to get be a high priority for the parents resources and so they want the parents love affection support and and and caring and concern and so the parent has basically said I think that you are 99 percentile specimen effectively it they're going to say you're a straight-a student and The kid knows that the kid is not quote a straight-a student the kid knows that in fact they're a very good student that once got straight As, but most of the time does not and so when the parent Goes over the top and heaps too much praise on the child Then what happens is the child is in exactly the same situation as our young man is in Stone Age where they have more credit than they deserve and they are designed by nature to smoke out these dynamics and realize that the only way to keep that excess status is to avoid the hunt and in this case they have to avoid the observation of their real abilities in school So in this case, the real abilities in school would be what are your grades if you try really hard well, if the child now realizes I cannot do this I have to make sure that I do not try really hard and Therefore get whatever grades that I have coming to me at the end of such a such a process instead what I'm going to want to do is Sprain my ankle. So what the kid does is a lot of times go quit Okay, it is the it is the the brilliant move to actually quit become a flake not want to do their homework drag drag around the house play their video games and otherwise disengage. He can be very upset and there can be arguments and and bitter recriminations and then and then rewards offered for if the child will just get on track and Then then the well-meaning but misguided a parent who incidentally in this case Is status seeking for themselves? Because what they are trying to do Is that they are trying to grandstand to the village how great the genes are in their children and therefore either one of two things They're either trying to aid and abet that child's ability to mate advantageously in the future or more likely They are trying to increase their own status and cachet in the in the mating community by demonstrating What fantastic genes they have brought forth into the world and therefore they could do the same for you. Okay, so The the parents are actually the parents have Genetic agendas that they're completely unconscious of But sometimes those agendas are not even directed at the child per se and the child's personal interests. Sometimes they're directed at the parents interests Completely independent of the child and sometimes the kids can sniff this too and it's a very unpleasant little dynamic Inside Inside the child's mind as they're they're staring into the seemingly well-meaning but misguided Parents and they definitely have a conflict of interests The child wants the parents authentic Regard for who it is that they are and the parents are instead trying to push and shove that child into being Ten or fifteen or twenty percent fancier than the child really is and you put the child in the trap Where it is very difficult for them to to To simply go forth and do their very best work. So instead what they do is they self-sabotage and This is the the root of human self-destructive behavior Is right here where it's actually winds up being in the child's best century To kick over the table and flunk out because if they kick over the table and flunk out then as the parent in their frustration is climbing the walls Trying to figure out why the child is doing this the parent keeps saying but you're so brilliant, but you're so brilliant But you're so brilliant As long as the parent says gives them that kind of heavy-handed positive feedback and encouragement The child knows they still have the status Okay, and they have not yet lost it and so it's putting them in a permanent state of not having to ever go out on The hunt and be vetted and so therefore it maintains an indefinite perpetual cycle of self-destructive behavior Nate: So hmm, let's say you are now the child Yeah or in essence I guess Well, let me back up a little bit. Sure This is a parent-child relationship where clearly they're forced to interact with each other in most normal situations And so if a child is going through this they can't exactly just pick up and leave Right. Does this situation also happen in outside life stay at work or with friends or or I guess an adult life as well Dr. Lisle: Sure, happens all over the place happens between adult children and adult parents expectations can get too high and The adult children can feel can feel like they are not meeting parental expectations at that level They could be very frustrated and they can actually feel like sabotaging themselves as a result It can happen In in actually friendships, there are friendships, where where where Sometimes this is actually a problem a lot of times Let's suppose someone is struggling in an arena mating arena job arena and they have a friend or some other interpersonal arena and they have a friend that they that is their that is a part of the support system and Even a good well meaning friend will say things like well You're just beautiful just as you are and and you're great. And you know, he should love you blah blah Okay. So what the friend does is actually give falsely positive feedback to To what the person's real situation is and this can put them in the same trap. Okay. Can you can put them, Let me, I actually discovered this clinically More than twenty years ago. I was I had a fascinating event and when it ended I I look out the door and I sat in my office for about 15 minutes afterwards trying to figure out what had happened Here's what took place I was a Psychologist for the criminal justice system in Dallas, Texas, and one of the things that I did was that I saw people that were on either felony or misdemeanor probation or parole and so I had a guy that was sent to me by by the provision system and They told me that he was in deep trouble with the judge because he hadn't paid any of his probation fees and he didn't have a job and if he did not If you did not get himself a job pretty soon and started paying the $25 a month fees He might find himself with a five-year sentence in the state penitentiary which seemed to be a tragedy because he was otherwise Behaving himself. And so he came in to me and I sat down and I looked at his record And he was not a particularly bad criminal record and he had done construction work in Texas This is in the late 80s and early 90s and he was out of work And it was kind of a tough economy wasn't a horrible economy It would it had gone crashed down and then it was coming back up, but it was just starting to function halfway decently not like the boom of the mid 80s in Dallas at that time And so I asked him, you know What was going on? And how was he getting by and I can't remember I don't remember this day how he was even surviving but he did not have a job and didn't have probation fees. And I said listen, you know, you're gonna need to get something because you're going to need to pay these probation fees and he said, well, I said you know, what have you been for living and he was a carpenter and And I said, huh and I said, well, you know you there's you're going to need to get work because you're going to need to get these probation fees because the judge is going to come down on you happen to know this judge and This judge is going to be bad news he's not going to let this slide and the man said I won't work for less than $50,000 a year and at the time I was not making $50,000 a year as a young psychologist and So I considered this to be an offensive overly aggressive ridiculous position and I also knew the carpenters were in a bit of a Tight spot in Dallas at that time because they'd been through a heck of recession And I and and I said, well, you know, that's not going to happen You know You're gonna have to get realistic and he says well I made this and that and he gave me his resume for a few minutes about all the projects He'd worked on and how much money he made etc and I Something about this he had this arrogant Swagger And this is a guy without a job without his probation fees facing the state pen and it just looked to me like somebody needed to be hit on the head and So I did I hit him on the head, but I did it I did it professionally and Cordially, but firmly and I said listen the probation officer that supervises your case does not make $50,000 the courts supervisor who is in fact In charge of the probation officers all of them in that court does not make $50,000 The psychologist that is talking to you does not make $50,000 The the fact that you believe that you should be making $50,000 and you're not going to work for less than that just isn't making sense lined up with the current realities. I said now it turns out I know something about the construction situation because I talked to a lot of construction guys in here and It isn't it isn't like it used to be but it's not as bad as it was a couple of years ago I said now I believe that you can actually probably make Twenty five thousand dollars a year right now and you're actually going to be able to get work now at that time That sounds like a pitiful amount of money today for us Nate, but the truth is is in in Dallas in 1992 twenty five years ago that would have gotten you a really nice apartment in a good car and you could live very would be the equivalent of 50 or $60,000 a year today in Texas. So it was a pretty good living There's no reason to be unhappy about that and I said listen For that kind of money you would get yourself a nice car. Nice place to live spending money I said there's nothing wrong with this and He said no, I'm not gonna work for anything less than 50. I made fifty thousand I heard this and then I just talked him a little longer. I was kind of disgusted and then something very interesting happened This is all transpiring within about 15 minutes He says do you really think I could get a job for twenty five thousand? and Instantly my irritation with him went to zero and I said to him You know, I'm not sure that you can but I think you might and I said guys that are starting to hustle are starting to get work like this and I believe that if you you know If you're skilled and you can have all the experience and you said you've had I believe there's a very good chance that you could That guy left all fired up about going to look for work And I sat in that office and I couldn't figure out what had happened And I don't know to this day when I figured it out I was cogitating on this for a while and I realized that there's this trap but for some reason he had his quote ego in this that his ego had told him that He had, you know, he deserved this highfalutin thing but he was actually defending his ego against the great fear that he couldn't even achieve something less than us and So this is what I come to term the ego trap, but when expectations get too high You'll see people put the brakes on and they won't even try. He had not even been looking for a job because he was terrified that if he looked for one, he wouldn't even be able to find one and So as soon as I got the expectations down To a reasonable level where he started to believe. He might be able to achieve it he would suddenly turn his motivation forward and he was ready to really try and Since that time I have found that whenever I see a child For example that's coming in that is quote flunking out. It was previously doing better in school. This is the problem that the expectations that the parent is inevitably screaming to me that they're a brilliant child that they can't figure out what is happening with their Johnny and When I explained to the parents what's going on And I get Johnny quietly in a room and I get the expectations down, and I tell the child that you know that I actually think that your parents are out of line and that they don't know what's going on at your school and that you cannot get straight A's anymore because that means that your parents would have to do your homework because that's all the other parents are doing the other homework for the other kids and that in fact what I think that you can get is you know mostly B's in a couple C's and if you'll just do that we will give you everything that your parents promised you if you get really good grades and When I do that the kids laugh at me and they're excited and they can't wait to show Not only clean table with what it is that that they're going to get for all these things pokeymon Or you know Boy Scout trip, whatever it is that they want They're going to get everything they want but they also are going to sail past my expectations There is no feeling in the world like beating expectations There's no worse feeling in the world feeling like you cannot live up to them and so this is a You do not want to trap somebody's ego by high expectations and this is typical I mean, so I'm not really coming down on parents here. This is typical of Both parents and Friends that they can easily be overly encouraging over positive Thinking that you are doing a good thing and a good deed and you're being a good person for the little person on the other Side, but you are not actually better to be to be straight and direct and if anything at all when you've got somebody in the mess like that to undersell a little bit and That's how we do it That's very very interesting because it goes contrary Nate: To all the Hollywood movies that that we've that I've seen and it goes contrary to all the other Motivational speakers and talks and things like that so it's uh the question I have though is let's say you're the person who's being ego trapped or someone who's getting expectations placed on them How do you get out of that trap without telling somebody else how to live their life and how to talk to you basically? Dr. Lisle: Right, you know this can be difficult how to get out of it. So I'll actually explain The the process I mean is is - There's more more than one piece of the process But one of the processes is that when once we understand that this trap exists that we actually we actually Inform that individual that we're going to take the expectations down, but that's actually not our expectations for whatever this thing is so let's suppose that you're a poet and You like poetry and you're pretty good at it And you start talking about how you're going to write a book of poetry and you've got some overly eager best friend That you know believes that your poems are going to you know, you're going to really sell well Okay Well and you start to feel that creepy feeling of the ego trap That you're not sure you're going to be able to live up to those expectations. And so you start to Demotivated by the way, if we hear anybody listen to this, this is what causes quote writer's block Okay, that's what this is. This isn't some mysterious affliction of writers. This is the affliction of the ages This is what happens whenever expectations get too high. The motivational system says the best thing to do is do nothing Don't go on that hunt. Okay, if they believe you're so great Don't go on the hunt prove them wrong if you're if you're Known in your little social circle is somebody that can write if you told people that you're going to do write something then then the problem is is that you now got the expectations too high and now now you face writer's block as you're supposed to sit down and brilliant things are supposed to come out of you and you've got This creepy feeling that they're not going to come out of you because it's not that simple Now yet, they would think it would be that simple because of this wonderful talent that you have So if you're the poet that's gonna you know publish this little book of poems and your friends are saying oh my goodness You know, you're going to be it's going to be so great. It's like an you feel that creepy feeling and you feel yourself Procrastinating and delaying. What that's about is the ego trap trying to defend your status from somebody who's set the bar too high so what we need to do is we need to set the bar lower. The the notion here is to consciously and firmly say, you know I'm I will I'm going to write some poems. Let's hope that they're not all terrible Okay, and so, you know, they can't all be bad we go exactly the opposite direction. Okay, so If you're a writer and you're gonna write a novel, it's like oh, I'm sure you're gonna you're guilty great It's like well, let's hope I don't do terrible. Okay? I'm hoping I'm hoping for lousy, that would be good. So we turn this thing around okay, and the truth of the matter is is that what we really have to do to get out of the ego trap is we have To dare to be lousy and if we if we essentially broadcast that the whole notion here is that you know what I'm planning on going out there and it's going to be lousy, but I'll learn something and You know, that's what that's what the process is for That's what life's for is for learning. And so We're gonna do we're gonna give this thing a try see what happens probably be lousy. Maybe maybe a little better than lousy Who knows maybe a little worse? but what I'm going to do is I'm going to learn something and so that we keep the We keep the what we're trying to do here, Nate is actually we're trying to borrow a very important philosophical principle from the Buddhists So, you know there's I am NOT personally a Buddhist and I'm not that well-versed in and All different sorts of religious and spiritual traditions But I am aware of something and that is many diverse religious or spiritual tuitions have a lot of wisdom in there But they can't really articulate what the wisdom is. They've just they've got there. There's a reason why this information And these ideas have found ways to be passed down through the ages because they have found if you get little tones inside of human nature that resonated and The the Buddhist notion of not being attached to something Is is essentially this so let's not get attached to what I call the outcome of what it is that we're doing So if we're gonna write a book of poetry We're not going to get attached to the outcome that the poetry is going to be any good We're not going to get attached to the outcome that anybody's going to like it that Anybody's going to be impressed what we're going to be doing is we're going to be essentially trying to get lost in the process but we want to essentially Try to not have our mind searching so hard as to the grand outcome of what's going to come up this but instead Just get lost in the process with the notion that you know, as we do this, we're going to learn something and That we don't have high expectations for the level of greatness or grandeur that is going to come from this But instead trying to do is we're trying to learn and grow and just see what happens and see if we can enjoy the process and That that's what we want to do with everything if we can know so Nate; How does that play into, last week, we talked about self-esteem and how it's actually a beneficial thing, to It's actually a very strange thing if people are are not caring what anybody else thinks. When I hear people talk about motivation a common theme is well you have to stop caring so much about what other people think and just do it. And it seems like there's a disconnect between Like they've got the right idea in terms of get lost in the process, but they've got that disconnect of well Just don't care what anybody thinks Dr. Lisle: Right. Now the truth is is that the Buddhist dream cannot be realized So and this is what you're talking about. So when people say don't care what everybody else thinks The entire point to the way your organization of your architecture of your mind is all about what other people think You're you're all about trying to Impress the opposite sex if that happens to be your sexual orientation You're all about trying to press in trust people to trade in the marketplace with you You're about to impress people to be your friends. And when I say impress I don't mean in some tacky way We're out to show them what we have to exchange with them value for value And so we cannot be, a Buddhist doesn't live on the mountainside by himself feed himself Mate with himself and not and insure himself against disaster by not having any friends That is not how it is. Human beings are not a solitary isolated animal Wolverines are there's one Wolverine for 50,000 acres. They don't make friends They don't trade there is nothing friendly about a Wolverine in its life. But a human being is an interconnected Highly hyper social species and as a result We care a great deal about what other people think because we have to Now we don't have to care about what everybody thinks all the time We have to think we have to be thinking about what some people think about us as we try to Show them what we have to trade with them. However There is a difference between learning and growing and doing our best and understanding that this is connected to us being able to Display and advertise for people that we would want to win as mates, friends, and trading partners. In other words to do the job authentically and genuinely. And I wouldn't even say to the best of our ability because it isn't your Responsibility to squeeze every ounce out of your potential that is not the point But the point is is to do well and to be focused on doing a job Well as opposed to doing the job that they will think it's cool It's about it's almost like, you know, there's a difference when you're cleaning your house potentially for yourself and you clean behind the corners and you're Determined to actually do a really good job because you yourself want it really clean versus the neighbors happen to be coming over and you kind of need to do a surface clean and That and hope they don't look behind the corners So much of human life is about doing it for the neighbors quickly to look as good as possible Shortcutting our way that you know we're going to do some of that but the most authentic esteem process is going to be when we Don't worry too much about what the score is about what they are thinking we know that it is ultimately quote for them but we want to actually do it very well so that our own internal self is watching the process and and respecting ourselves for our process and in doing so the notion is we get lost in the process as we move towards good outcomes, and the final concept is Essentially that whatever the outcome is the outcome we let the market decide the outcome and what this if we can get to this a Buddhist like state and with respect to many of our things then what happens is this is what I call a position of power Position of power is when we are not desperate for specific outcome of what the world says about us instead what we are is we, you know, we will take whatever outcome comes because it will be a fair and reasonable outcome with respect to what it is that we have earned and we will trust that at any given go-around we may get less than we earn and Then some go-around we may get more than we earn but in the final analysis Whatever it is that we get from the marketplace will be a fairly decent facsimile about what we've earned So that the big thing we need to be paying attention to is Earning it by doing things in the right way And that's why we want a kid, but it's not a good thing for parents to do in their kids homework You know writing their essays for them, you know, etc. Forget it. You let that kid earn it they're on their own and whatever grades they get are the grades they get okay, and The pride should be that they got it themselves They got it in the right way and we didn't set the expectations too high for them So whatever they get they walk away with it with pride and that's what we want. Nate: Yeah, very very close teacher of mine now growing up He he was mostly concerned. He said I don't care about your results I care that you studied or that you trained or that you worked on the process So his expectation was always did you train or did you study that's I don't care what grade you got. Did you study enough hours? Is this something similar did he have something that he has something unique? Dr. Lisle: No, this is I mean he is excellent. That is exactly What I'm talking about this this concept is not new I think some of the the bells and whistles that some of my thinking brings to it is that we can we can talk high concept in psychology about some of the some of the sophisticated little nuances of the process in a way that have never been talked about before because we understand Human neuroscience and neural architecture in a way that we we never have. However, the lessons are timeless and All of the great teachers and the great coaches of the world know this that you do not heap praise on people you do not set expectations high that in fact What you do is you set expectations for effort that you don't set expectations for other things. Not for outcome and And so in that same way as a parent I would set expectations for effort that then you know you you're going to do X amount of homework out if it's ridiculous or something Then we're going to set we're going to set the bar for how much you're going to do and what we all think is reasonable and then you're going to do it and And whatever the outcome is of those efforts, that's fine But the but we're going to put in that effort So that your internal self knows that you put in that effort that you didn't shortcut You didn't do a sloppy job and whatever the outcome is is the outcome and we can live with that Nate: Very interesting. I actually I want to play a clip for you and just get your reaction to it This is a clip from the movie Rocky and he has a he has a bit of a falling out with his son So he he talked to him and just understanding a little bit about what you're telling me It seems like he's putting his son in the ego trap So I want to see what you think about this the clips about two minutes long But I'm going to play the first 30 seconds and I get a reaction and we'll finish the clip Good. Yeah. Rocky: You're not gonna believe this you used to fit right here I'd hold you up to say to your mother. This kid's gonna be the best kid in the world This kid's gonna be somebody better than anybody ever knew And you grew up good and wonderful It was great. Just watching every day was like a privilege And the time come for you to be your own man take on the world and you did but somewhere along the line that changed. Nate: so That's the clip right there. What do you think? Dr. Lisle: Yes, beautiful. That's a beautiful example of the ego trap and so this kid who grew up Rocky Balboa's, this must have been the movie Rocky Balboa and And so yeah, this kid obviously grew up under the enormous specter of this father Who's this world famous athlete and now dad is heaping seemingly Wonderful warm loving praise on him, but now he's signaling that the kid changed and disappointed him and of course Yeah, when I watched that movie the years ago that there was no question That's a that's a big bad ego trap a tremendously difficult situation for that kid to live under Yeah, let's go and let's hear more Rocky: It was great guys watching every day was like a privilege And the time come for you to be your own man and take on the world and you did But somewhere along the line you changed You stopped being you you let people stick a finger in your face and tell you you're no good And when things got hard you started looking for something to blame like a big shadow Let me tell you something you already know The world ain't all sunshine and rainbows. It's a very mean and nasty place and I don't care how tough you are It will beat you to your knees and keep you there permanently If you let it. You me or nobody is gonna hit as hard as life but it ain't about how hard you hit it's about how hard you can get hit and keep Moving forward how much you can take and keep moving forward. That's how winning is done Now if you know what you're worth then go out and get what you're worth But you gotta be willing to take the hits and not pointing fingers saying you ain't where you wanna be because of him or her or anybody. Cowards do that and that ain't you you're better than that Nate: Talk about ego trap. Dr. Lisle : A big ego trap and actually a very realistically acted one that They a super high achieving father like a Rocky who who did have a very rough life and had tremendous challenges and then overcomes those challenges and he looks at his son who had it so much easier and That the bar wasn't even as high as it had ever been for Rocky and yet his son blaming other people for his failures and basically shying away and not toughing it out and and yet what do we hear? We hear the father's frustration of saying Essentially when parents get frustrated with their kids not achieving With the encouragement they give they turn up the volume higher and you're hearing a very authentic process That's the the parents only know one gear and when I tell parents we go the other way some of them are terrified They think the kids are are going to just quit and not do anything and become you know that you know i.e. you reach for the stars and then at least you'll get the moon And this is a this is a very big mistake and so yeah, this is uh, that's a beautifully acted portrayal of How to not do it and I'm glad you found it Nate. That's a that's a great example Nate: How would some listening know that they are in an ego trap? Dr. Lisle: You know, you're you know you that you're in the ego trap when you feel self-destructive bitter unmotivated. That you keep procrastinating That you just feel pressure But you don't feel a joy of the new day at whatever goal it is that you need to reach to To reach a new level of happiness of satisfaction that you aren't Excited about engaging in it and to try to get better But in fact you're in a defensive position where you're trying to not look bad and you're trying to avoid if that's where you are This is this is the thing to listen to and go to my website, Esteem Dynamics, I talked about this issue in detail and this is uh, this is what people need to focus on you can get out of this trap and when you do Life gets a lot better very fast Nate: Are there any take home tips that you would recommend for people who are trying to get out of the ego trap? Maybe something they can do or or consider, uh Dr. Lisle: Yeah, There's a lot. I mean I you you might want to look at a Book called Wooden which is a story of the teachings of John Wooden great basketball coach at UCLA. Um it's called a lifetime of reflections on and off the court and Even if you're not a basketball fan or sports fan, these are some timeless insights into human nature Wooden was the master at keeping his his young men out of the ego trap despite phenomenal expectations of being UCLA basketball players and he was able to keep them focused on the process and not the outcome and and so some of his ways of looking at life and some of his His mantras can be very useful tools as a person tries to to move away from From that kind of position of worrying about the outcome and worrying about what other people think Into a more internal driven position where it's about whether or not I am learning and growing and willing, you know willing to stumble but learning to Learning to essentially focus on the process and the pride that comes from doing that Nate: That's excellent. Thank you very much this is this is great information in fact I just read an article saying that they did functional MRI tests on people and found out that you want to be happy lower your Expectations which is in fact exactly what what you're talking about Dr. Lisle: Exactly. You got it. Yeah Nate: Thank you very much. Dr. Lisle. We'd love to have you back on we can talk about some other topics here Dr. Lisle: Very good. Yeah. Thanks. All right, and I look forward to talking to you again
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