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Episode 277: Do ppl marry out of necessity, Assessing happiness, Contribution Anxiety
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dear doctors my male friend told me that he married his wife even though he was in love with an ex-girlfriend because he could trust his wife to be loyal whereas he couldn't trust his ex how often do men do this how good or bad of a situation is this for the wife who really just wants a reliable husband and father until death do them part she might be concerned about him having an affair with the ex i guess my first reaction is i'm not exactly sure uh what the question is the it was how often would men not marry who they were into just so that they could be in a secure situation that would be a relatively rare male that would do that so um obviously that is a that's a concern for males generally is going to be the potential future fidelity of their partner but that's usually not enough for someone to marry somebody uh as opposed to somebody else that they're far more into so the the first the first pass answer to the question is pretty unusual for a man to make that decision the uh how good or bad of a situation is it for the wife well i mean that i have to tell you this sounds like this doesn't sound like american culture this sounds like you know some something from overseas so these these this my first guess would be that we are talking about people here who are you know second generation immigrants the uh that that's what this sounds like to me so you know i could could easily be wrong but i i'd be i'd be actually willing to bet some chips that that's true the um how bad of a situation for the wife who uh wants a reliable husband and father until death to him is a part well what a what a uh what a typical wife wants is to be in love with her freaking husband and have all the cues that indicates he's in love with her that's what she wants she doesn't want quote reliable okay so that's a that's a that's a lower bar than we have in american culture however that is not low a lower bar than we have in worldwide culture where me where females don't a lot of times have the leverage financially and culturally to which ultimately is financially to actually dictate terms on their own sexual choice so as a result they are uh and they wind up in in situations where they are uh they're basically living defensively their whole life and hopefully gets them have a halfway decent husband and uh that isn't too problematic and then they love their kids and they raise their kids and and so they're playing defense uh their whole lifetimes which is just a tragedy it's a it's a you know it's one of those circumstances that we we would hope that in the future um if we're not living under a technocratic dictatorship didn't take long jen i i i lasted a few a few minutes yeah well it's too late the ship has sailed anyway so it's not no longer a hypothetical in in our future technocratic dictatorship right in our future yeah we don't know what this is all going to look like but certainly in the glorious uh freedom of western democracies of the 20th century women increasingly post world war ii got to exercise more and more mating choice uh interestingly enough we have good sociological evidence about this because of i forget who it was it was probably harvard you know that sort of low brow place on the east coast that oh man bunch of hacks well now they don't have any now they don't have any entrance standards so god knows what's going to happen but nobody does at this point right but a century ago they they had i believe it was a harvard uh longitudinal study and what they did was they asked people every year starting about 1921 you know what they look for in a partner what would they consider to be ideal situation etc it was extremely interesting to watch the changes over the decades yeah i've looked at i remember you remember they're looking at that data and so in 1920 a woman didn't couldn't care less about what a man looked like in principle she cared about his income and his income stability that's an animal that basically has to sacrifice um sexual attractiveness chips for in other words you're sacrificing child survival for child reproductive cachet is really what it is and so that's that that's the trade-off that's inside that female's head by 1970 that looked way different okay so now at that point the the female desires for how sexually attractive the male is had risen quite dramatically by that point uh not coincidentally you had women in law school med school earning their own living you know uh this this the whole economics you had birth control started giving them credit cards i mean can you imagine and they could vote in everything they could vote so you could see that they were not helpless and and as a result they were exercising mating choice which means that they were wanting to be all fired up and sexual and interested and get cues from the mail that the males was into them et cetera et cetera i.e what we recognize is as full-on parabon strategy not some compromise dictated by a bunch of cultural slash economic constraints so the question is how good or bad of a situation is for the wife answer sounds like that's a pretty shitty situation for the wife okay so if if the if the guy is quote not in love with you but he marries you just because he knows that you are a dutiful human that's not going to step around him and therefore he can be sure that his resources are going into his children whoa this all sounds like you know everybody in this is playing defense which sounds to me like a quite frankly a uh a strategy uh that arises out of cultures where people are not very free so that's what it looks like to me does that sound about right jen yeah i mean it's it's a much more typical story to have from the female perspective so we've had lots of questions on the show over the years of you know sort of a female asking the same question um you know should i should i give up on that guy i'm still holding a torch for that you know i really thought was the one that bad boy to settle for this nice safe parabond um and women are more likely to do that um to this day despite the fact that they can vote and you know have all this have all this uh darn mate choice available to them um it's still just more of a typically female instead of incentives and behavior to to do that so it is it's an odd question i would say the thing that leaps out to me is that it's a terrible situation for her um because you know you you have him not just you know you're not his first choice um and he's not you know we don't know if he's really not in love with her or just not in love with her as much as he's in love with the other person but there's this there is this threat hanging out there of him being hung up on her and is she still in his life in a meaningful way are they still in contact i mean i think there is a very real possibility of infidelity there um depending on the particulars of the of the situation so in that sense um you know she should be very concerned if that is something she is concerned about if she's made the trade for her own reasons and her own security and she's okay with that tacitly and and sort of um you know there's there's an understanding or or it works for her cb that's one thing but if she's going into this naively um expecting him to be faithful to her despite the fact that he you know really his his heart is somewhere else then um that's a that's a bad situation to get into from the beginning i would say is it possible dr dr hawk um do you believe it's possible for a male or a female to be in love with two other like two humans at the same time certainly yeah in other words your uh let's let's uh pick that apart so that we can understand what we're talking about the what love is is a word that we use to describe quote something that i value highly man i'm gonna get this engineering description of what love is with no no mysticism whatsoever well dr hockett dr hawk just to give you context my girlfriend recently got me into watching the bachelor and so of course you know you've got a guy who's gonna be outstanding you know you know gonna be uh in love with several women at the same time so that's uh yes and they they really they just can't decide until the very last minute they just don't know what their heart wants it's they they're equally in love with those three last finalists and have to sleep with all of them yeah and then hope that the winner yeah yeah yeah the women are all totally cool with that like where were you last night okay dr love but can you can we keep with the engineering explanation yeah thank god we can get back to some engineering oh my god so all this is so you've got little neural circuits in your head that that fire off um uh essentially what they are is they're they're computations of value that's what your nervous system is a device for computing value and by value what we really mean is we mean the something that influences the statistical possibility of survival and reproduction so if you're on a desert island and there's no water you you you value you know fresh water tremendously and when you take a big bunch of gulps of it you quote love it all right so loving uh people romantically means that romantic means sexual for god's sakes it doesn't mean anything else so so really it's about the um it's about you could have two people could there be two people that you value highly about who it is that they are and you find them both sexually attractive of course in in principle there could be ten okay the uh the the reason why it's not likely that that's going to be happening all at the same time is that that we use love in a in a dimensional fashion in other words how much do you value something well there's incremental differences in how much we value different things so i like apples and a good apple but i like a good watermelon better okay i happen to like the taste of watermelon better so the and then i like one watermelon a little bit better than i like the other one so the um so two people what it is that you value about them there's going to be a constellation of characteristics that we find valuable as a package if we say quote we love somebody it means whoa that is a really highly valuable composite package okay that's what that is so it'd be pretty not real common to quote love two people fairly equally at the same time now so the most common uh thing that you're going to see in human affairs no pun intended is going to be that one person is safe and comfortable and reliable and etc and someone else the new person for example is exciting all right so we're going to find in other words what are we looking at we're looking at survival circuitry versus reproductive circuitry and so it's not uncommon in dilemmas of value assessment in in the life of animals to have dilemmas between survival and reproduction you have to sometimes risk your survival in order to get reproduction and when you are engaging in reproductive activity you are usually compromising your survival to some degree you're making it you know you're just even even i'll i'll swear a lot of women with young children don't want to have sex just because they don't want to be so completely engaged in the moment that they have lost track of where their kid is and whether their kid's safe okay no i don't know about that no i think that's true the uh now dogs are not the same thing as [Laughter] good thing we got enough brains working on the problem we figured out the mystery of the disagreement now the um so anyway where was i so yes but most of the time when we have a disagreement or excuse me a conflict between loving two people at the same time it's that it's usually excitement versus safety so that's uh that's generally what people are describing and that's generally the dilemma that they're having and it can be complicated because the chips that are involved are so different you know one of them may be very strong survival chips one of them is going to be very strong reproduction chips so the uh and by reproduction it's like okay well when with the sexy guy you your stone age brain is calculating that any children that you have with this guy are going to be cool and smooth and know how to dance and know how to woo females if it's a male and so you intuitively recognize the quote biological value of those genes whereas your safe reliable horus over there you recognize hey you know the kids may not be sexy stars but they're going to survive and they're going to get get a really good education and they're going to be fed and protected and we're always going to have health insurance so this is the you know this is a age old horse versus jimmy the guitar player dilemma and that's usually what when someone's describing their love for two people it could be the other perspective obviously it could be a male looking at exciting uh unreliable female versus a very you know uh stable and secure and reasonable and responsible female that it does not have as much sexy dust as far as that particular male is concerned so that's that's what i think we really mean when we talk about loving two people i think almost every time that i've been talking to anybody that's that's generally been the dilemma i don't recall a time when someone was felt like they were quote in love with two people at the same time that they were both strong struck uh strongly sexually attracted to both uh i if i thought long and hard enough i'd probably find one in my memory banks but i don't recall that uh how about you jen what's your experience in this area uh that's interesting yeah i think there can be a sort of when i've when i've certainly when i've talked to women who are in that situation part of the problem is the um dynamism of their evaluation of of one or both males and so i think this is sort of the the male egocentric bias sort of um has you know your your assessed mate value of any given female is pretty stable um once you've determined it it doesn't move around too much but women are much more i'm you can you can see that guy in a new light in a new situation in a new interaction if he's uh you know there's another female who's interested in him um all of that kind of stuff will scramble her assessment um and so i've definitely i've seen a lot of kind of oh i'm torn between these two guys because i just don't know quite what i'm dealing with here you know i thought uh he was all boring but then i saw him at karaoke you know now now i've like i've had this kind of uh repeat exposure boost where now i i'm starting to i was i was pulling away but now maybe that's where i need to go um and so it's that's part of the torture on the female nervous system very interesting and i and it's it's not always a trade between um you know one is sexy and one is stable i think it's the it's the sort of you just can't quite i agree with you that that's you know the sort of central tension with the yeah i.e i'm in love with multiple people i can't choose among them the the bachelor problem um but i i think sometimes it's you know there there are mixes of this and i just can't tell which one is more optimal for me and and so i have to i have to put it in a lot of different contexts and situations and i need more information and um you know on the bachelor they just they need to be more vulnerable they need to connect more right to really find out what's there and what that dynamic is yeah all good thank you dr hawk all right yeah and dr hawk do you have a comment about the um the the part we you uh said maybe not true the um women may have kids and they're not so sure where the kids might be and so they can't quite relax i i know i made a joke about but i don't actually want to know pass your physician yeah i don't i don't find that just initially plausible maybe if i if i thought through it a little more i i don't think most most stone age women were having you know losing themselves you know really uh enjoyable retreat from the world sort of sexual encounters i don't think they had the opportunity for a lot of that so i don't doubt that that you know is maybe part of what's going on in the in the female's mind and certainly she's highly highly attuned any signs of trouble from the young ones but there are enough other people around watching the kids um and she doesn't have a lot of opportunity for you know holing up in a uh in a sex retreat with her man of the moment it's just not sort of a an opportunity that she's going to be having a lot of so yeah i don't know it would be we could we could talk through that more but it doesn't strike me at first glance as a huge part of her cv okay fair enough thank you all right all right our next question dear doctors how do i assess how to stimulate or encourage my brain's moods of happiness that's a very that's a very engineering way to look at the problem like you know are when when are you happy um i think you need to have a you know be sort of a curious scientist about your own life experience here and maybe there there can be a place for being a little um precise about it and keeping a journal and making notes of things because some people have more self-awareness about this kind of thing than others um and so when you find yourself you know feeling very much content and at ease in the world and and happy with your situation you can make a little note of it and and start to discover what those things are and what tends to lead to them um i think most people find themselves getting to this point pretty intuitively you know you sort of this is what all of the all of the exercises about you know what color is your parachute kind of stuff like you know we we have a pretty good sense of what kinds of activities um are most pleasing to us and and when we feel uh the greatest moods of happiness the people that we enjoy spending time with the most the you know whether we prefer skydiving or uh i was gonna say bungee jumping but those are actually quite probably similar moods of happiness or really unhappiness for me or you know skydiving or quiet kayaking like those are very different activities that different people are going to some people are going to find moods of happiness with one and not the other and some people both and some people neither and it's it's just this is this is called living your life and and getting curious and and following the breadcrumbs of you know the the things that light you up um and that's going to be a little more of a kind of a left-brained scientific exercise for some than others most most people that i talk to you know they already know um they're just kind of in the business of trying to build a life that does not follow those breadcrumbs and then justifying that life and trying to fit themselves to it and wondering why they're so unhappy it's it's not that they don't know um what it is that uh stimulates their moods of happiness they they just feel like they can't pursue them for whatever reason or or that it would be irresponsible to do so or um that it's just unseemly to do so it's not a matter of uh lack of awareness it's it's just the sort of fortitude to follow through on it um so it kind of depends if you're if you're aware or not um and if you're not you certainly can become so and what are your thoughts wow yeah i think uh i i actually i got distracted by our communication thing jen had tripped over something at the end that i thought was yeah i think it was a very uh very good observation that essentially your your adaptive unconscious knows what it is that it is that is the most attractive goal that is in front of you in your environment so that that's the entire purpose of the brain is to be scanning for the most valuable change that you can make between you and the environment whether it's going over across the room to play pinball or whether it's going out with your buddies and playing golf or whether or not it's working on your cryptocurrency trades in other words your your brain is scanning and calculating where it thinks the greatest profits are and that's what that's where the happiness is is in those processes so it is an intuitive thing and so this is a funny-looking left-brain question obviously derived from some of the language we use here but it is about you know your your imagination is a mechanism for imagining you in different circumstances than the ones you are in scrolling through those circumstances and selecting uh the goals i.e a goal is a is a different set of circumstances than the one that you're in now and there's some time and energy in order to transport you from where you are now to where you are going to be in the future that might be at a sandwich shop 15 minutes from now that's a goal and it arrived in consciousness because the you you computed that that would be an improvement in your circumstances and given the time and energy expenditures and options in the next 15 minutes that seemed like the best option so this all doesn't look like there's much free will here this is just a brain scrolling through options and then selecting goals that appear to be the most profitable but what jen tripped over is something very important and that is that we often have our imagination basically screaming at us and telling us we would be better off under these alternative circumstances very often changing a major component of repetitive trade trade processes in our life whether or not it's changing our job changing our romantic partnership situation or changing our friendships or altering our relationships with our family in other words those would be it might also be altering our relationship with the physical environment in other words changing our diet and getting well and getting a bunch of pain and suffering gone so there are um there are different kinds of changes that we're contemplating but often a person's uh daydreams uh their fantasies are signaling to them uh they're they're basically waving a red flag saying we're kind of miserable in this particular aspect of our existence and we should change it and however uh as jen was saying there are obstacles that get in the way and so and it's interesting how sometimes relatively small obstacles can manage to trip people up behind societal expectations or just hyper agreeableness or etc just a general lack of assertiveness or a lack of risk tolerance there are things that are that from our standpoint as as counselors are surprisingly um small uh obstacles hurdles that can actually get in the way of someone making a fairly major change that their adaptive unconscious is screaming at them would likely be a very good idea okay and so the this is this question really points to the the the importance of of looking and challenging those obstacles sometimes you need another person's help you need a uh somebody smart somebody capable somebody with some guts uh in other words somebody who's got good judgment it might be jen and i or anybody else a bartender with some life experience um the uh or god forbid a psychotherapist but careful only if absolutely nothing only absolutely i've got nobody else to go to bartenders are far better options yeah that's right the uh so the the point is is that often um one of the tragedies is sometimes you know six weeks of discomfort can alter a lifetime and get you 30 years of a con considerably elevated level of happiness but a lot of people don't go through those six weeks because they're sufficiently intimidated uh by the obstacles that are within there so that is uh so this this question i mean it would appear to have an obvious answer i.e do whatever the hell feels good do whatever seems like it would feel good use your imagination and follow your natural impulses that's obviously what this animal was designed to do the curious thing uh that that jen wandered onto is that of course we all have those impulses but the question is why do they sometimes get blocked okay why do they hit a barrier or a dead end and we don't seem to get past them that's where life gets super interesting uh in clinical psychology right there it's like okay what is it that's stopping you and very often there's some important uh considerations to to essentially maneuver our way through and get clear about there could be various traps we could be ego trapped we could be uh we could be just uh essentially trapped by an over concern with other people's reactions to the changes that we might make in other words uh we may have uh yeah fear of our inability to actually execute the changes even though our imagination is is giving us the goal because a lot of our brain actually believes that we might be it may be possible for us so one way or the other what is a seemingly empty looking obvious question when we dive down into uh dive down through it what we find is actually the greatest question that faces all all psychologists and philosophers okay is what the hell do you do to be happy and the answer is well let's make sure that you aren't being trapped by ignorance of your of the real cost benefit of making some changes that would be enormously beneficial to you if you were to make them okay so that's uh that and that's what we are here to do is to try to as much as possible help people become better informed about about the about the entire array of of cost benefit options that they are facing and to get essentially determined about attacking uh with all intelligence and resources uh available attacking when we are having some tenacious obstacle that's standing between us and the our imagination that is telling us you know what it would be reasonable for you to have a considerably different set of circumstances here that would give rise to probably a great deal higher level of happiness than the one you're experiencing now okay i certainly have been through this on multiple times and the the the two times when i can think about this that were most important for me were two relationships that needed to change okay one of them romantic and one of them was a friendship and so in both cases um i was was feeling obstacles uh i.e that these were uh and in confusion about about the cost benefit of what these things should look like uh both of these relationships were uh neither of them was terrible but my nervous system was not that happy and experiencing quite a bit of frustration and a lot of confusion about what i what it is that i should do but but in the in the end it was actually clear that i needed to get a big distance between myself and these people it needed to change okay and when i did change those things it was clear that my that my happiness level went up uh substantially in both cases so um yeah relationships are likely to be the biggest source of obstacles that are standing between you and your happiness there could be other things but but that's the that's if you're having significant recurrent unhappiness in your life that's a place to put a magnifying glass and say really do i really have to be in this relationship at this level or maybe i should be in this relationship at 10 percent of the level that it is now okay um and you know etc in other words and maybe we need to experiment on making changes and see what those experiments yield wow right yeah that's the central point i mean this is where experiments come in as you that's the only way to kind of um it's not necessarily that the unhappiness is stemming from that individual on the other side of the relationship but it's the whole set of uh behaviors and expectations that go along with it that are foreclosing these other opportunities for for things that might ding those moods of happiness for you so um you feel like you know i am i'm it's a it's an opportunity cost i'm spending time with this person they they have um the the relationship is built on these ideas and these expectations um but you know i really want to be hitchhiking across mexico yeah or whatever it is um and so that's that's when you take an experiment and and you go see if that is actually really what you want for some short little blip of time and you start to get some actual concrete information back about how what sort of pressure that puts on the relationship that might be standing in the way and how it would have to change to accommodate this thing if it really is important to you so yeah it's the only way to it's the only way to discover that oh yeah yeah let me just piggyback because this is all this all actually important uh important stuff and that is that so i will have people that are contemplating divorce and obviously if somebody's contemplating divorce that means it's pretty bad because they've been married 17 years and if someone's calling me up and they're contemplating divorce uh that means that there's not a lot of mood to happiness here now however there's a reason why that divorce didn't take place ten years earlier when it was evident that the people weren't happy okay so and that is bunch of obstacles etc however one of the big things that didn't happen was that everybody's trying to make a massive decision either they're going to get a divorce or not get a divorce rather than run an experiment okay and a lot of times the people on the other side recognize they don't want you to run that experiment because the experiment may come back and the experiment may tell you hey you want another experiment you want a big long lifetime experiment that says you're not in it so they'll they can get all shitty and play what i call the death penalty like oh no if you do that then we're never going to be friends and never talk again and i'm going to go to the jugular and the divorce okay so but the point is is that what we want to do is we want to instead run series of experiments so first it's a weekend then it's a longer weekend then it's a week off and then it's three weeks off and then it's maybe i'm going to get my own place for a couple of months and then maybe it'd say hey now now i'm really going to move out instead of at airbnb for you know or sitting in my friend's house for six weeks it's going to be now i want to now i want to actually move out and get my own place okay so it's a series of experiments and as jen would say we follow the bread crumbs okay we we find out what happens to the nervous system in the process so that's a uh that is a less traumatic and less gambling way of attacking what could be a very big decision but we break that decision into little bits and therefore we are on much much uh sure footing at every step of the way yeah yeah which makes sense uh as long as it's coming out of genuine uncertainty and a desire for clarity um i think sometimes that you know the the death penalty is deployed by the other partner because they're recognizing the the defection cues are all over the place and you've actually already made your decision right um and so at that point kind of uh baby stepping your way out uh to prolong the pain is maybe not the best decision so it's this is really something we're recommending to to get more data and to understand your own your own feelings and to and to sort of test the waters on things which can be a really valuable thing to do but if it's a way to um sort of dodge the the conflict and to try to draw out this painful thing but you're really already out you're already cheating you're already you know you've already you've already gotten the apartment that you're going to rent um then it's then it's sort of a different question and so the death penalty being deployed at that point is understandable like i.e if you know if you if you take these steps then it's over we might as well get divorced so that is um usually coming from somebody who is looking at the situation and feeling like okay well i'm not seeing a lot of chances of triumphing in this conflict of interest here dr lyle dr hawk thank you so much this is i love it when you guys uh kind of piggyback off of each other i just learned so much oh good nathan so yeah all right let's do our last question here and it kind of has to do with this pre this question um so let's skip the one that you have on your list about horror let's go to the very next one after that okay so dear doctors i've always been quite anxious but this feeling has worsened in the past two years i always feel a sense of insecurity about the future as well as inferiority to everyone i question my decisions and my capabilities is it a real fear that signals that i'm not contributing to the village or is it just my personality oh it's the it's the central fear it's a huge reasonable fear to have if if you by by dint of personality and behavior you you don't have good feedback that you are contributing to the village and that you are held in esteem by the village and valued that is going to create a lot of anxiety and then if you've got a personality that's prone to it you're you're in extra trouble um so it's not it's not clear whether this is the two years reference here is um covid related and if your circumstances have changed um during the pandemic if you if you had a job where you had esteem feedback that you you no longer have or just what the situation is there but i would say whatever the circumstances the the solution in principle even even though you sort of do have this personality that is kind of prone to feeling this way which some people do is you need to you need to do esteemable acts you need to put yourself in a situation where you are advancing um toward the the frontier of what is most sort of challenging and uncertain as far as achievement in your life um and so you were you were putting yourself whether it's at work or developing any kind of skill or in your relationships or anything else you put yourself on on the ground where you are every day making meaningful progress to a goal that is just out of reach the the cliche on of refrigerator magnets all over the world that life is at lived at the edge of your comfort zone that's really that is the heart of human happiness um and so if if the pandemic has sort of put you right in the center of your comfort zone um where you're not really pushing yourself intellectually or you're you're not developing new skills or you're you're not taking on challenges at work that are that are you think you're you can probably manage but are just kind of outside of of what you think you can easily do it is impossible to impress yourself if you're if you're sitting in the comfort zone it's impossible to impress anybody else or if you did impress anybody else it doesn't matter because you don't value that feedback because you know it's not worth that much so the the only feedback that really pushes you out of this space and and starts to um convince you that you do hold value to the village is meaningful feedback i.e esteem earned in the right way from the people who matter um and and the only way to do that is to get yourself out of that rut and and to do things that uh are a little uncomfortable and a little challenging and meaningful and then with that you know you have to kind of manage that inherently anxious personality um in the in the midst of that and recognize that you might have some um you know a little bit of a distorted funhouse mirror when it comes to the type of feedback that you're getting and it might take a little more positive feedback to convince you um but that's that's a separate question the first order of business is to get yourself in a situation where you are moving in the right direction to earn that esteem in principle and and to feel valued wow thank you dr beautiful i'm sure doug i'm sure doug has more on that yeah no no that's right just just write it right down the line all right well thank you so much allowed dr hawk i mean dr hawk dr lyle that joke will never die thank god it should it should die a horrible death a fiery death yeah well one of these days jen you're gonna have to post a a picture of some of your doings yeah no definitely yeah i um yeah i've posted some on on instagram so people can stalk me on instagram if they want there's a few of uh of the greenhouse and things that i've been planting but yeah i've got big plans for total farm life out here so i need to find some rescue chickens you
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