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Episode 267: Sentimental objects, Birth control, Getting over the victim mentality, covid depressed
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this is not a current events episode by the way for the listeners who are anxiously waiting we're just just making some small talk as jenna if you're if you're interested in current events i mean we uh we do a show doug and i usually together sometimes i do one separately um for hawkblocked which people can find on odyssey i don't even bother posting it on on youtube anymore because i just anticipate it will get my channel into trouble but i post everything eventually publicly on on my channel on odyssey and it's available early for my patreon people um but that's pretty devoted to all things current events and politics and our most recent show both doug and i are kind of at the point now where we've decided with the weight of evidence that yeah this is we're pretty much in the middle of a of an organized globalist plot i.e it's a cabal it's not just a bunch of people trying to make money opportunistically so um it's a it's it may still be opportunistic but it's uh organized around the opportunity in particular ways so it's been there's there's lots to talk about there are many many things many many tendrils of that conversation that we could go in but i would just direct interested people because i know not everybody is interested in politics which you know i can't fathom but as a political scientist remember listeners dr hawk is a political phd from from harvard so that's why she's interested in it it's depressing um but also i think important to to pay some attention one one of the things that i do kind of go back and forth on and doug and i have talked about this i think this just came up on the q a that we did for the the living wisdom library the other day is um you know this this is it better just to put your head down and stay out of the way and and uh try not to you know get noticed by anybody uh or is this sort of the moment to to stand up and rebel and act out in favor of your principles and that's an interesting philosophical question um and i kind of go back and forth on it myself um i see the the harry brown appeal of you know this is just look after your own interests and your own self and you're not here to save the village you're here to you're here to look out for you and you're the people that you love um but i also i i wonder about the the the moral questions and the greater philosophical questions of living through a moment like this and not standing up for major principles and doing whatever you can to try to uh direct the tide of history in a in a more freedom loving way so i don't know i i am uh i go back and forth between crushed apathy and outrage and um just complete overwhelm as i think a lot of people are i could i could rant obviously qualified or not but if people are interested i would just direct them to uh to hawk blocked and um the other places that we've been talking about this recently and i'm sure we'll be on it again this week so all right well enough enough current events uh we all right dear doctors i am a 45 year old married female with children my house is lovely and clutter free except one attic room which is where i keep a large amount of sentimental objects all neatly packed and stored and kept clean i have a lot of objects letters and cards from my own childhood and life i have a lot of my children's clothes from age zero to five even though they're teenagers now and a lot of their toys from their early years i have their dismantled caught i have every picture they have ever drawn i have tried to analyze why i keep things i thought somewhere was to use again but i thought some were to use again but i don't think it is i wouldn't use the cot again but i can't bring myself to get rid of it and i can't pass the clothes on as i just want to keep them i tried taking a picture of an object and only keeping that but it only works for things i'm less attached to i only keep things that are associated with a very happy memory or a very special person why do i feel that i need to keep all these possessions is there a way past becoming so attached to things yeah i i this is really really common um probably more common in females than males um and i don't i i think of this sort of as a um you know fit the environment to solve the problem kind of question not try to not try to change yourself so this is something that is subject to a lot of individual difference some people are just more sentimental than others uh you sound like quite a sentimental person my grandmother was a very sentimental person and had a huge house full of all of these things as well which caused great great headaches um when she passed um and i think a lot of people find themselves in this situation so it creates a lot of um you know people really feel like they're doing something wrong and they need to get past this and they need to just learn let's to learn to let things go uh and you've tried the methods it sounds like you've tried the kind of con marie method of taking the picture and uh going through things and seeing if if they uh give you the the the what does she say the feeling of joy or the feeling of happiness and you can then if if not you can let them go um this is possible for some people some people are wired to totally be minimalists they don't have much stuff at all other people are more on the continuum to being very sentimental all the way to people that we would call hoarders or people who are just surrounded by everything that they've ever had in their life and i i think of this um i don't know if anybody's done any research on this but just intuitively it feels like you know coming from an ancestral history where we wouldn't have been able to keep a lot of stuff um we would have been on the move more often than we would have wanted to be we we wouldn't have had a chance to accumulate items um and especially large valuable items um and or or these little kind of trivial to anyone else but significant to you things like the the childhood caught and the the childhood artwork etc um so the if we were able to keep something and carry it with us throughout into into adulthood it would have been an extremely precious thing and so i think there's a little bit of a way in which you know once we have held on to something for some amount of time it it it acquires that that charge and that feeling um and we you know because we didn't lose it early on it it just gets it gets accumulated and these piles get larger and larger and larger so my usual answer for this question is you know think think about what um what the source is like if you if you have the space for this or not or is the source of distress that you're experiencing a feeling that you shouldn't be this kind of person and if so then that's ridiculous because this is just who you are you you were a sentimental cat you are wired this way and there's absolutely nothing wrong or abnormal about that it just it might be a little unusual on the bell curve and abnormal in that sense in that it's less common in the population but there's nothing pathological or broken about it um and so the the sort of acceptance that this is this is who you are and this is what it is and and you can kind of work on uh winnowing it down as you go but not make it an additional source of stress in your life that you haven't managed this problem if it is a problem in the sense that it's taking up space you don't have uh or you're trying to move and there's this huge pile of stuff that you can't deal with or it's causing some kind of uh additional stress in your life in that way then this is why god created storage units and then it's like you get it out of your out of your home out of your space it's it's still there and there's a price to it you you are then you know indentured to public storage for the rest of your life but you you still have the stuff and it's not interrupting your daily life or driving your spouse crazy or any of the many other problems that can come up with this sort of thing so this is really i really think of this as a management issue not a transformation issue would you say is there any status gained or potential future potential status by keeping things and being you know keeping them like that yeah i mean there are probably all kinds of things we could we could hypothesize about how that would work um stuff is valuable stuff has always been valuable so if you have more stuff you you have more things to trade um i think we had some question at some point on this show from from some woman who had a huge stash of golf balls was i think or ping pong balls um and she she couldn't understand why she maintained the stash and it was like well there's some little circuit in your brain that is uh it the this thing feels like it could be valuable as an item to trade for some reason and so you better hold on to it you better accumulate it um and so there's definitely that can get hijacked in this process too or if you've got a lot of evidence of your your diligent mothering um which it sounds like a lot of this is with the childhood stuff like look what a great mom i am i have every single drawing my kid ever made um i i never let anything go that means i love them more than you love your kid uh there's a lot of different things that could be going on there [Music] and if the kids are particularly have high athletic ability could they like maybe sell it later if they get really serious sure yeah look at these trophies and these ribbons and look at look at the great quality of my jeans uh immortalized in the awards that my child or my children earned so yeah for sure that would be interesting to see on auction shaquille o'neal's first caught you know like or you know yeah his first painting or his first drawing as a two-year-old you know yeah these are things that in this current uh ebay economy would actually have value for children that went on to achieve success or even just notoriety well thank you dr hawk thank you um okay our next question this is a dating question and so we want to prepare you dr hawk for you know some male female dynamics which i'm sure you will be totally honest with so okay all right dear doctors uh my boyfriend and i have been dating for over a year and are very happy i'm 38 he is 44. you but we both have one daughter from a previous relationship we've talked a little bit about children and both came to the conclusion that we don't want to start over but he once told me he would of liked to care to have a boy to carry on his last name because he doesn't have any brothers and basically the last name will end with him anyways i've had to get on various forms of birth control and some have been horrible on my body and my mind it's been a pretty big problem for me now i got information about a vasectomy for him even though even i told him i'd pay for half of it and he makes excuses doesn't really sound like he's in a hurry to do so what do you think this means does he eventually want another child but just not with me should i try and push the issue more or just keep trying different birth control methods even though they are costly and inconvenient for me i'm a very non-confrontational person what is the best way to bring this up and also ways to help me not stew on the idea that maybe i don't qualify as a mother to a potential future child oh okay she's 38 mm-hmm yeah um so i perhaps i'm just in a disagreeable mood today but this feels like a little bit of a deal breaker in the relationship for me um certainly if you are on hormonal birth control and this is causing you not just expense but it's having effects on your on your short term and your long term health and he is not receptive to the idea of a vasectomy i think this is a really really big problem um i i i would frame this um vasectomy or condoms i.e making it his problem not your problem um you should not be obligated to be on uh hormonal birth control to to to suit his whims particularly since the the two of you have nominally agreed that there are no kids on the table and you are supposedly in a long-term pair bond so it could be the case that he is just not entirely sure that he's ready to close that door since he you know flagged this thing about wanting the son to carry his name at some time um and so he's he might be a little uncertain about the relationship and and vacillating a little bit and um is just maybe not ready to have that conversation yet but i think if you've been together over a year um things are going well it's it's time to have a very honest conversation where you say you know i i really am kids are not on the table kids are not happening and so we need a long-term solution to this problem um at least for the next 10 years plus and i am being wrecked by birth control this is not sustainable for me how do you think we can solve this do you think vasectomy is a possibility for you like what what solutions can you offer here um and not being a confrontational person i understand that's a really difficult conversation to have but i think it's a really necessary conversation for you to have if if in part to push him into a full confrontation with the idea that maybe he doesn't want to be in this relationship forever if he's kind of sitting on the fence about that and and hasn't been forced into confronting it then he is just sitting here ticking off years of your life wasting time while he ponders that and so the earlier you can have that conversation with him the better it is for both of you i think uh in in a non-confrontational personality situation sometimes the easiest way to do this is to kind of set up a three-way conversation with um you know you could talk to me talk to doug doug is always better because he's he's more uh generally more disagreeable even when i'm in a disagreeable mood he's more disagreeable and can he has a special knack for cornering the the man who wants to weasel out of a conversation we don't generally do um kind of couples counseling type stuff but if we if if we've had a conversation with one or the other of you before and there's a there's a particular topic that you want to bring up that you know that you might fold on in a confrontational situation because you are an agreeable human then that's somewhere where one of us or or another therapist type um arrangement could be really helpful to give you the sort of container and the courage to get through that conversation um so that's i mean that's really how i would go about this i am not a fan of hormonal birth control in general um for anybody and certainly not if it's something that is causing you some trouble um and if it's being left as the only option here to solve what is a problem that is shared equally by you both then i i find that just entirely unacceptable would you um i had heard some myth that maybe birth control women on birth control they tend to be attracted to different kind of guy personality wise uh than when they're not on the birth control yeah that research is out there um i don't know how robust it is i don't know how well replicated it is i my sense of it is that people have found totally um diametrically opposed results with that question and so there was sort of this feeling for a while that oh yeah this is a this is a truism women on birth control prefer uh you know kind of more feminized men i think that's the conclusion um and uh and then some people came along and said nope this is actually [ __ ] we we found that this doesn't apply at all this all these studies are completely misguided and then i've seen some follow-up critiques that are like no actually there is an effect so i i don't know what the state of that literature is right now it would not seem out of bounds to me that that would be possible um it certainly seems um reasonable to have a hypothesis that it would be i just don't know if it's been um if if if we actually know what we're dealing with there yet okay okay yeah that would be interesting to be in a relationship with somebody for years while you're on birth control and then come off of it and then you know now now the now it's like you're not as a true you're just you're seeing a different side of them even though it's not a different side you're just not really liking a certain part of it because it's either too feminine or too disagreeable or whatever you know whatever the characteristic is that you perceive interesting yeah yeah or just that you you know also kind of disputed as um how much uh how much volatility there is in the the characteristics that a female is attracted to over the course of her cycle which um you know there's some effect there i think it's again kind of been overstated in some of the past literature but uh if you were to come off of birth control and experience greater volatility in the cycle where some parts of the month your your chosen pair bond is more attractive to you than others that could be an interesting new wrench in the dynamics of the relationship as well [Music] so many factors so many variables yep yeah but this is this is not just your problem i mean i i think if you're in a relationship where he is making it your problem and he's like okay well you know you don't like uh hormonal birth control then we'll just get an iud or you know just just do just just fix it yourself then he is not uh really negotiating this problem in good faith in the relationship the fact that you have really ruled out kids um should make this pretty straightforward does the fact that the vasectomy is essentially permanent uh change anything i mean i would assume like the birth control and the and the iud wouldn't be permanent yeah that and that i mean that's what's sitting out there um that is bothering her with the ie perhaps not qualifying for pair bond so you know if it's permanent then why do we care because we're together forever this is the parabond everything's great um and so his his refusal to do something that would forever uh prevent him from having children with not just her but any other female is is disturbing to a male who is not all end on the relationship is disturbing to to even a male who might not not be um or who might might be all in and and still just you know hates to close that door for understandable evolutionary reasons um so i i get that i'm sympathetic to where he's coming from but um it's he if if he has issues with that he needs to be verbalizing them really clearly and you know helping her understand where he's coming from which it doesn't sound like he's doing it sounds like he's just kind of dodging it so would a pair bond uh represent essentially forever or is it like that five year chip that i've heard you and dr lyle talk about yeah well that's the that's the differential in the female and male kind of uh wired in feeling there i think if she feels happy in the relationship she's 38 she's probably not thinking that she's looking for any other long-term pair bond other than this one forever and ever and ever he may be thinking uh five ten years um not even if that's not conscious but that you know he still has the ability past this parabon once it runs this course to sire additional children so why would he want to uh take that up take that opportunity away um so these are the things that if he is not acknowledging directly are kind of sabotaging the relationship putting putting the burden unfairly on her so it's fine for him to feel that way totally totally rational reasonable to feel that way but let's be honest about it mm-hmm okay all right i think to be honest about the the cost of the status quo to her her body and her mind and um even her pocketbook yeah okay thank you dr hawk yeah i told you i was feeling disagreeable no that's that's fine what else yeah yeah no that's totally fine well we got a next question that uh you might sign off on it's just one sentence and it says dear doctors how do i get over my victim mentality that might be the shortest question we've ever received on bugs well my my father was famous for this this quote that he would throw at us um once he once he got out of 12 step once he one of his many attempts in life at getting sober he he went off to treatment and he came back a changed man and one of the things that he loved to to tell us whenever we were whining about anything was handle it just handle it so there's you got the robert hawk school of just suck it up buttercup um you you can't there is no getting over the victim mentality other than just getting over the victim mentality this this again goes goes to the question of personality of course we've talked about this a lot um some people are are just realists you know they can face very difficult circumstances and they just suck it up buttercup they just move on with things they don't dwell on injustices they don't complain um they they just kind of you know pull their pull their socks up and move on with it and other people the the slightest uh slights against them uh in their past continue to affect them for a very long time and these could be exactly the same type of insults but different people are going to quote unquote get over things in different ways so a lot of this is personality the i assume that this person who's asking this question is has acknowledged that they have a little more of the um linger linger on past hurts kind of personality so i don't think there is any way to to talk yourself into getting over it um you're certainly not going to to to be talked into getting over it by taking it to therapy which is what most people do where they get to kind of dwell in it even more so i think it's just a question of of coming coming back to your own power and your own rationality i just actually just i probably have it right in front of me here because i've been reading a lot of the transcendentalists recently in this current political moment that we're living in i have found them um they have long been a source of inspiration and just kind of a philosophical tonic in my life ever since i was a teenager and i've gone back to them so this is thoreau and emerson and the whole group um and i think it was emerson maybe in self-reliance he had a essay self-reliance um let me look or yeah okay discontent is the want of self-reliance it is infirmity of will our sympathy is just as base we come to them who weep foolishly and we sit down and cry for company instead of imparting to them truth and health and rough electric shocks putting them once more in communication with their own reason so this is emerson advocating the sharp angle um essentially you you were being deprived of communication with your own reason if you were being indulged in your victim mentality by yourself or by anybody else um and so to the extent that you are not taking stock of the situation honestly and and looking at okay well that happened that sucked it's not fair but where am i and where do i go from here that that is the state of mind that puts you in the most rational powerful position to move forward in your life and create the things that you want to create and and to achieve the goals that you intend to and want to achieve anything other than that is is distortion it's noise and so this is why doug and i are so often railing against the therapeutic industrial complex which exists to uh like somehow try to convince people that they are more powerful as victims and it's actually it's completely upside down you you are most powerful in accepting all the crap that has happened to you uh accepting that it was completely unfair and and that it shouldn't have happened and other people totally suck and were really wrong and and have done you dirty but this is what it is this is what it is and now you move forward what what do you have at your disposal and where can you go from here that that is the only place that you actually can plant yourself and move forward everything else is totally an illusion therapeutic industrial complex that's so freaking brilliant [Laughter] yeah it's a it's a beast it started with oprah i mean it started with freud but it was uh it was it was it was brought to scale by oprah yeah we have a nation of i mean it's this is every everybody who is selling you anything benefits from you being in the victim mentality um you you need something to feel better you need something to be different to to um you need your you need your life to be other than what it is and that makes you a consumer that makes you very very marketable it's like oh i have a solution for you whether it's some sort of transformation program or some kind of snake oil any anything that you will temporarily feel is um is going to change your state other than yourself it just puts you in the ultimate receptive uh powerless well the victim role right and you by by acting out the victim mentality you were keeping yourself there by demanding solutions to a problem that is is uh going to continue to exist as long as you're outsourcing it to other people please keep going dr hawk i love this rant [Laughter] this is just i i mean it seems like the culmination of this is your work right i mean this is yeah this is my dissertation yeah yeah um i mean my dissertation has everything to do with sort of the the ways in which um the the demand for for people to be brought out of any kind of any kind of state that they are unhappy with whether it's a state of personal emotion or a state of economic development or there are a lot of different ways that we could look at this and i see big intersections here with everything in contemporary politics with woke thinking identity politics i mean we could take this a lot of different directions but um it's it's such an upside down it's it's it's viewed as a tool of empowerment and it's actually just a tool of consumerism oh that's so amazing to hear you makes me actually verbalize it yeah yeah it seems like a very difficult challenge to overcome uh in the same way that i guess in the diet world if uh you know if if doctors are saying you know actually you know you're gonna lose weight pretty slowly and you have to eat foods that don't taste really good at first uh and then someone's saying no you can eat the ice cream diet no you can eat this and this will make you feel really good temporarily and and your brain is going to have so much to more dope you're going to feel like it's so much more valuable and the food's going to taste a lot better yeah yeah i i applied this when i gave my talk at the nha last summer sort of to the the role the victimy role that people put themselves in in the the diet and wellness industry this oh no i've i've gone off my diet i've been quote unquote non-compliant um and so i need the next solution to to fix me there's there's this kind of you're getting all the dog noises today the caller's shaking and the water drinking those those at home playing the drinking game with my dog noises oh i can't hear them actually right now yeah oh maybe on the microphone maybe on your phone i can't but on the microphone yeah they're making a ton of noise okay um yeah but it's it's the whenever you were sort of throwing your hands up and saying oh i failed oh i've gone off plan oh i've i i'm non-compliant um you are relinquishing sovereignty over yourself and your decisions and you it's not like you don't know what to do whether it's with diet or with you know getting on with your life after uh whatever it is that you your swimming around in your victim mentality about you you know what needs to be done you you know how to move forward you just don't want to or you don't feel that it's fair that you need to because it's somebody else's fault that you're in the situation that you're in but you're still it's like you're taking your hands off the wheel you're the the raising the hands up in helplessness is releasing the wheel of of self-governance and sovereignty and people um are thereby putting themselves in this in a situation where they they their will can be hijacked by somebody who wants to sell them stuff and this just happens it happens with political identities that happens with anything that can be monetized wow well thank you dr hawk i love like that rant it's uh definitely definitely uh relevant to today's world okay yeah a lot of people in this kind of self-imposed trap all right our next question dear doctors over the last few months i've been feeling down depressed feels like too serious of a term but people say i'm quieter i'm definitely feel just generally unsatisfied with my life but i really can't put a finger on why i eat healthy i eat well i exercise i'm healthy i have a good family and friends i have a job a roof over my head i'm even studying to be a psychologist the only thing really missing is that other half in my life could that one thing really be causing me to feel so unhappy with my life or do you think with current events coveted etc there's just a general wariness and fatigue over us all and i should or should i just expect it all to pass by the way i've been single for three years now and had a few dodgy dates but not not been intimate with any of these people uh i mean i think lacking a pair bond i mean yeah i i don't want to overstate this and say that people can't be happy if they don't have a relationship because obviously that's not true but the entire evolutionary game is about you know propagating your dna into the next generation and so if you were lacking positive feedback um with the with the steps that would plausibly get you there or whether or not you want kids um the the lack of positive romantic feedback for somebody even even somebody who's not super romantically motivated which it sounds like this person is is not necessarily um if it's only been a few dodgy dates in three years um that is a big gap in your sort of esteem meter so you've you've got good work feedback good friend feedback um you do have the general kind of coveted on we that we all have the fact that we're living such a weird living through such a weird and difficult time i don't think you can completely discount that but but i do think it's a little politically incorrect to say so um and and i'd be curious a little bit about this person and their kind of romantic history and their age and all these other factors but whether they want to have kids and haven't um all of that would be really relevant but it it is i think a little silly to look at a question like this with somebody who wants to be in a relationship and is not and is sort of like why why am i not at peak happiness and and to not acknowledge that the lack of positive romantic feedback is probably a big piece of things um so i would i would also be curious it's not implied by this question like is is this just i guess it's sort of the over the last few months so this is a fairly new thing um so what has changed has has anything significant changed in this you know last couple of months did you go on one of these dodgy dates and get particularly negative feedback are you getting negative feedback in some other area of your life um but the the two things that i think are probably pulling the most weight with your general state of mind right now are lack of romantic success and covered mania those are those are two very large factors on anybody's life right now okay interesting okay so we need more yeah we need more yeah i mean it's we we talk when we talk about sort of feelings of depression they they're you know unless yeah we just have to know more more specifics i mean it's it's generally your first line of questioning with something like uh especially recently developed depression is how how much of a difference from the baseline is this um and where in your life have you gotten failure feedback in the last couple of months that you weren't getting before or have you kind of reached a tipping point of failure feedback in one of your domains that is starting to really wear at you in a way that maybe you you had a little more hope six months ago and then you went on two more of those dodgy dates and now it's like well god i might not ever meet anybody that that would be sufficient for the sort of general cost-benefit analysis to feel like i don't i don't know i don't know if i can be successful here and that's going to uh by design necessarily generate some unhappy feelings because it's uh you're wasting your time and energy okay i really appreciate that doctor hawk yeah the covet sucks everyone's a little depressed yeah and i i notice i i also notice that people are like nervous going out out and even just talking to strangers you know it's i think somebody told me recently it's it had been the first time they had gone out and they felt so weird like not being nervous about being next to people yeah yeah i it's there's a lot of particularly if you live in a sort of a blue city um where uh restrictions have been pretty intense um and people are very habituated to them i just got back from this enormous road trip that i drove across the country and back um like 6 000 miles in two weeks or something ridiculous like that and it was this was very much you know when i was younger um one of one of the ways i spent years of my time was riding greyhound buses back and forth across the country i i i don't know it was tens and thousands of miles on greyhound buses because it used to be so cheap you just walked up to the counter and you get a ticket for 29 bucks to go from seattle to new york so i did that over and over and over again and i learned a lot about the united states and i learned a lot about the human condition and this trip was a little bit of that and it was really striking how how different life is depending on where you are um what kind of town it is what the state politics are uh and i got back to seattle and you know went on a walk down by the water today and everybody you pass someone on the sidewalk and they're masked but they still walk way out of their way so they're nowhere near you and nobody looks at each other and you gotta control for the fact that it's seattle and nobody really talks to each other looks at each other anyway but um but it's it is there is this uh you know we are losing our kind of um i don't think our ability to connect with others but our efficacy and our practice with it is definitely atrophine um and that uh takes a toll on people uh certain people more than others yeah i think um someone told me he said you know you ask somebody for their number and they'll give you their snapchat i'm like i don't have snapchat how do you how do you keep track of people no you know you can't even call her all these apps yeah yeah there's um i mean this is a rant for another time but part of my uh part of what i've been feeling really depressed about is this you know as we move into the quote-unquote new normal um a lot of this is embracing the digital side of human life um even more than it's been embraced by default so you know make making it really central to the human experience um as equivalent with or or superior to quote-unquote normal life so i've i've been seeing all of all of these um notions of augmented reality you know sort of moving into into a world where you're walking around and you're looking at the world and you're not seeing it really as it is you're seeing it as the program is telling you how to see it so instead of walking by people's glum faces they actually turn and smile at you there's like all of these programs that really kind of just change things just a little bit and one can't help but feel that this is quite matrix-like um and uh and and yeah the the the marriage with our technology has taken something really significant from human life um that we've we've not wanted to reckon with in a reasonable way this kind of it's not sufficient to just turn off your computer and go outside for five minutes a day i think that's [ __ ] i think we've completely lost touch with what it means to be an animal in this landscape and to live an animal's life um we are so divorced from that and the last two years have just accelerated that and and taken the last vestiges of the little social connections that we had that were sort of animal-like and also put those online um completely online and that is it's a i if you weren't feeling a little depressed about that then you wouldn't be human you
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