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Episode 263: Consilience in Evo Psych, Does the Rooster Settle Hens, Cancel culture
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dr hawk i was fascinated to hear that dr jordan peterson played a role in your intellectual development just like you i also have a mystic chip and have been drawn to the allure of jungian psychology so naturally peterson's work was a perfect fit for me i also think jordan peterson has done a fantastic job of exploring the evolutionary basis for jungian archetypes he appears to have a firm grasp on the literature and he's convinced that there is consilience between the two fields in particular peterson's synthesis places institutions such as christianity in a dramatic new context but then again this is an argument i imagine richard dawkins would vehemently oppose to to be opposed to the debates on religion between petersen and sam harris serve to illustrate this intellectual divide so where do you stand on this matter dr hawk is jordan peterson right can we bridge the gap between young and evolutionary psychology if yes what implications does this have and if no what convinced you wow it's a very complicated question that probably deserves a very complicated answer which i you know don't have uh because this sounds like this person has gone really deeply into peterson's work um with archetypes and their intersection with evolutionary psychology and i think my my understanding of it is pretty superficial just because i i i take peterson as he's useful and i leave what isn't useful so um i think probably a lot of people who listen to this podcast are familiar with jordan peterson but if you're not he yeah he was a big influence on my sort of um he's my gateway drug for evolutionary psychology i think that's fair to say he is a clinical psychologist and a professor of psychology at the university of toronto i think he's still appointed there maybe he isn't anymore but he was for years um and he's been around the space for a very very long time and actually um wrote a book over 20 years ago that was really important for me in um getting sober and kind of figuring out what it is that i wanted to do when i grew up and what it is to live a meaningful life uh that drew a lot on this jungian psychology and um as my dogs in the background it wouldn't be a podcast with me without some dog noise um and uh uh yeah uh just sort of you know he developing these exercises for he calls it self-authoring so doing this very kind of 12 12-step-esque inventory of your strengths and your weaknesses and essentially where you're going to wind up if you just let inertia take over and you don't actively intervene in your own life to create a future for yourself and conversely what kind of future you could create for yourself if you really sat down and got serious and made different choices and um you know went all in on developing new habits and essentially changed your personality in in scare quotes within the within the boundaries of the amount that you can change your personality which is significant when it comes to to an approach like this if you if you're very serious if you've been adrift in your life and you kind of don't know where you're going it can make a huge difference as it did to me to sit down and contextualize your little hero's journey and figure out what you know where you actually want to go and what you would have to change to get there i think that's a really powerful exercise and he he still has these tools on his website um and uh makes all that available to people and that's how i originally knew him and then a couple of years ago he blew onto the scene because as a a very conscientious fellow with a significant disagreeable streak he did not take kindly to the prospect of mandated speech in canada and spoke up against it so particularly the idea that as a professor at the university of toronto he would have to be he would be mandated to uh call um genderqueer and transgender people by their preferred pronoun even if that was not an english word so um you know he this all gets very complex and into the weeds but his he's he's sort of misunderstood with what his critique was his critique was not that there's a transgender student in his classroom who identifies uh you know is a biological male who identifies as a female who wants to be called her or even they or them um it was this sort of made up terminology these these words that don't exist in english that um would then be compulsory he he saw that as a very slippery slope to a lot of problematic things and um kind of opened up a whole big discussion about that uh quite some time ago now and it vaulted him onto the the national and international scene and made kind of a superstar out of him but he's always been this very strange character who sits between a lot of different spaces the you know drawing a lot of his wisdom from jungian psychology and the idea that everybody is this little individual on their own hero's journey and that finding meaning finding meaning in your life and and what what kind of journey you were devoting yourself to is a really essential business of being human there really is nothing more important than that for him for in his broad perspective but he also has he's very strongly rooted in evolutionary psychology so you know from him that i first heard uh you know somebody speaking openly um about things like you know men and women working together in the workplace is a very new and and very uh unnatural phenomenon in a lot of ways and we should expect it to give rise to a lot of problems i remember him hearing him talk about that in 2016 and being like whoa whoa buddy whoa you're not allowed to say this kind of stuff um so he's got he's got feet strongly in evolutionary psychology um but he also has his head fully in the clouds not just with jungian archetypes and you know religious ideas but i think he truly does subjectively believe in the supernatural and it muddies the waters for him i think if he were just approaching this you know these questions in in terms of their symbolic utility and integrating evolutionary psychology with the hero's journey um and the the the drive that we have to find meaning and to find belonging in the tribe and all of these all of these things that we see across traditions and religions and cultures that would have some coherence to me but i think jordan peterson himself believes in god um believes in the hereafter believes in hell probably too um and like as real actual physical places and that that limits my ability to uh really fully understand where he's coming from and how he understands those realities and and how they integrate with his broader worldview so it's worth thinking about i'm sure there are people who have really looked into this and have much more lucid and interesting things to say about it than i do um but i i do for anybody who does have a mystic chip he's a wonderful bridge um to navigate between these two very different worlds wonderful thank you dr hawk yeah we always like to hear you wind out about jordan peterson because you he seems like you you know a lot about him relative to most people he's he's such an interesting character he's um you know he's this incredibly conscientious slightly disagreeable strangely open and very particular ways um quite introverted fellow he's he's got this to watch him interact with people who are criticizing him he's he's not able i think he's quite emotionally unstable as well so he's he's very i think i think being in the public eye is so taxing for him because he's so far out there with what he's saying and how he's saying it that of course he's going to be subject to tons of criticism and then he has an incredibly hard time with the criticism um and he can't he just he can't if you if you challenge him he gets very precise and he really wants to understand what are you challenging what are you saying get down to the nitty-gritty of it let's really understand this um and i think that just drains drains him tremendously and is at the root of a lot of his health crises and um and uh you know other things that he's gone through in the past couple of years but he's an incredible mind and has you know contributed immensely to my own life and um to a lot of these debates and continues to do so even even though he has his flaws as do we all so i wish he'd get off his carnivore diet yeah i i watch her once in a while him him talk about it and his daughter as well and i i just you know good good for them but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me but uh maybe eventually it will so i think she's she's broadened i think she eats greens now so she might be a carnivore carnivorous plus occasional green would you say that she's evolving [Laughter] i i think that's fair i think that's there i i like her too you know they're both they're both really intelligent disagreeable interesting characters so um i just i'm glad they're out there doing that yeah and jordan peterson is i think he he brought eva psych uh to the forefront to mainstream media because i remember when when dr lyle and i were starting this podcast it was like he was really the only one that was really forcefully telling a lot of people and he was amassing this huge audience and it was based on more more interesting intellectual stuff than some of the casual mating related subjects uh in evo psych yeah well i think he appeals to a lot of young men in particular um as as doug does i'm sure you know with sort of this uh proxy father figure role this kind of like you know what one of the most [Music] one of the most cogent kind of like the powerful things i've heard peterson say is something on the order of you can't start a revolution if you can't clean your room you know like what what are you what are you doing thinking that is a 24 year old who's accomplished nothing in your life that you know better than the the commanding heights of of money and power and politics and everything else how to run the world um that you have the not just the audacity but the the the lack of humility and the the lack of awareness to consider yourself this radical revolutionary who wants to turn the world upside down when you can't get your own life together and i think that just the the resonance of that with a lot of young people and particularly young men with fairly chaotic lives has has been huge for him i mean it's what's made him a new york times bestseller um because that that sort of message is very much lacking in pop psychology culture it's it's very much the opposite it's this kind of oh you know you can do anything you can be anything you want you can you can change the world you're you know you're this little blank slate who has ultim you know in infinite potential and um possibility and he's saying no you're actually quite constrained um and no one should take you seriously until you prove yourself and it's a very kind of constant he's often characterized as this very conservative throwback you know everybody report women report back to the kitchen let's take everything back to the 50s kind of world view um but it's there's some of that but there's also just this congruence with human nature um and i think you have if you're a 24 year old kid who is kind of at sea as i was when i found his book i i mean i i didn't i i wanted to be a little revolutionary i was i was a total little uh died in the wool marxist at that time um i i was completely confused about my place in the world and what that sh what that was appropriate to me and um what that actually meant what it meant to think that i wanted a revolution and he helped turn me away from that line of thinking in a really helpful way and i think that he's served that purpose for a lot of people um and there's just very few other people who are brave enough to say such an unpopular thing to such a big market sure all right thank you okay our next question dear doctors i have a question that feels counterintuitive to me but very apparent across the workplaces and environments that i have been in in a female dominated environment and workplace when there is no man there is an air of competitiveness and cattiness that can linger but once a man is introduced even if he's not in a position of power the relaxation i feel is palpable why is this why is the female competition not ramped up why does the rooster settle the hens so to speak the rooster settles the head it's really too bad we don't have doug with us today because i would like to hear his answer to this question see there you go there you go um this is interesting i uh you know thinking back on my own work experience i feel it's often been the opposite um that the women working together there there are problems and there's cattiness and there there's there's some [ __ ] um but nothing like there is when when a male is introduced so i guess it depends on the male it depends on the role of the male in the organization um but definitely it has consistently been my experience that a high value male introduced into an otherwise female workplace settles it outwardly in some ways um because the women are definitely settling into uh there's they're settling into a uh display a stable display to that mail um because they can't they can't go around they have to they have to organize their competitive hierarchy in a in a coherent and predictable way so it does i think lend a kind of stability to the whole environment but there's a lot going on under the surface there's a lot of competitiveness for access to that mail for for favor from that male um and it depends it matters whether he's in a position of power whether he's young whether he's eligible um i've been in all of those different contexts and seen it influence the general dynamics but i think every time i've been in an all-female workplace um it's been pretty chill relative to what it can look like when you when you introduce mixed sex so but that might just be my distorted experience or perhaps this person who's asking the question has had a distorted experience it's it's hard to know from first principles we would we would assume that it would be um more uh problematic to have a competitive situation with mating dynamics going on in the workplace then if not um and that is in fact my experience but i don't know what's your what's your thoughts on this what have you seen or what would you what do you imagine i would imagine just uh that if the guy is really good-looking and eligible then the girls would be more motivated to quote behave in the sense that they'd behave in a way that like you said that they're trying to show their best foot a predictable pattern uh and if it's it's behave and it's yeah but it's not at all settled so so maybe it's this just depends on who's looking and how you're looking but i think if you're if you're attuned to the psychological dynamics that are simmering under the surface it's not stable and settled at all um quite the opposite and there's it it drives a lot of [ __ ] underground there's a lot of subterranean like if you could if you could be the assisted man and look into the the texts that were being sent and the emails that were being sent and the the act the access attempts that those different females were making on that male um and and how they were manipulating the other females around that i think you'd see a very different picture than what you see of everybody being all prim and proper and playing their role in the conference room yeah and i wonder i i just had this thought like if it's a gay male that comes in would it have the similar effect and and if it did my only thought then would be that then you have a bigger stronger person in the group and so people are less likely to act out for fear of maybe some repercussions i don't know i'm just kind of thinking out loud but maybe yeah yeah i think a lot this kind of depends too on the nature of the workplace so you know the workplaces i've been in where i've observed this sort of dynamic and i think the workplaces a lot of people are in um just generally not a lot is is being done there's a lot of socializing there's a lot of um just kind of access and grooming and [ __ ] happening so it's not like people are laboriously on the assembly line making widgets all day and and really working hard and not having a lot of time to participate in this this kind of background stuff so i think that would matter a lot too like are are people fully physically engaged with the job how how much latitude do they have for the office politics and the and the office social dynamics what what are the different age groups involved who's single who's not who's looking to step out of their marriage who's not all of those things are really going to matter um so you know the one one particular case that i just anecdotally was in was you know it was an office with three women this was a small office no real high pressure we were all just pushing paper around in for a non-profit um and it was an older pair bonded woman and myself who was single and a co-worker who was similar to my age who was also single um and that was all fairly stable fairly gossipy you know we definitely spent a lot of time just gossiping and talking about boys but didn't didn't actually do anything about it most of the time and then we have this high value single um although dating seriously someone um so you know pre-pre-tested we knew he was high quality and he was still potentially eligible so that's the worst kind of scenario he's not fully off the market he's not married but we know that he was good enough for somebody to date so he's passed the past the initial uh test um and he wasn't always around so he would you know he kind of he worked for a kind of um another organization that we did a lot of collaborative work with so he was in the office a lot but not consistently he didn't have a permanent place there and yeah and oh my god it just completely threw the whole place into chaos and it like there were separate alliances um between myself and the the sort of mother hen of the group and then my my competitor and the mother hand of the group um and uh yeah it was just it was a complete disaster yeah that's really interesting dr hawk so yeah it seems like there there's a lot of variables in this in in kind of to dig deep into this answer and that that sometimes the rooster will settle the hens and sometimes uh maybe the hens will settle the rooster yeah totally well yes actually i have seen that happen as well um so yeah i i you you could definitely have very very different dynamics if you had a bunch of older more settled females um if it wasn't if it was a less eligible male for some set of reasons and that the women sort of collectively ruled him out as a valid prospect um yeah if women had all found themselves in very recent very happy pair bonds he just can't predict these kinds of things so i think i think both my impression of this um and the questioner are affected somewhat by egocentric bias but i do think all things equal if we were just to to imagine this theoretically you would probably see more destabilization with a mixed uh mixed sex workplace than not um but i'd be interested if people want to weigh in on this and their own experiences what they've what they've yeah and would you um maybe this this uh you know as far as personality goes um would you say that that if we took you know a million people men and women and drew a bell curve would men be more emotionally stable on average than women would oh yeah great yeah perhaps maybe i don't know maybe that's that could be the the scenario where you have just a more stable personality that enters the workplace just happens to be male at that point um so but but a stable female could do the same thing it just just you know stable female may not be uh working at that level if she's that stable you know what i mean yeah it's um those are important factors the the kind of the the hierarchy dominant structure of the workplace matters a lot too so you know if there's if your place is very clearly defined in the organization and you you can't really do too much elbowing and manipulation to gain access to the top if if you're trying to target some kind of high value high value male who's come in and is higher in the organization that's going to completely determine all of these dynamics i've worked in these very very laissez-faire um there really are no hierarchical structures this is one of the problems of a lot of nonprofit organizations is it sort of like oh everybody just you know bring your best to work and we'll all work together and it'll all it's like communism it'll allow to each according to ability and need um and what happens is just this absolute free-for-all where the highest value um highest dominance individuals whether they're male or female are very quickly collectively identified and then the whole thing is this mad scramble for who can get more access to those people are you in their little shadow of favor or are you not so where there is no order order will be created out of chaos in this kind of environment where people are just hustling for proximity so you throw some some mixed mating dynamics into that and it gets pretty appalling in a hurry all right all right our next question i wonder if the doctors have any tips about how to avoid trouble as an evolutionary biologist in the modern workplace evo psych has become more taboo in recent years i know it has always been criticized as a simple vehicle of racism and sexism but things have gotten worse lately there seems to be a moral panic over white supremacy and evolutionary sciences are often criticized of tools as tools of these kinds of people my employer like many others is adopting many trainings and policies based around words like equity inclusion system systemic racism i work in the public sector for a large west coast city so my co-workers are very liberal and 72 percent non-white so the majority view is very much woke obviously the answer is to just stay out of any discussion but are there any strategies that i could use to avoid conflict without having to pledge allegiance to blank slateism how do you guys avoid the nasty labels that come with the uncomfortable insights of evolutionary psychology could we soon see widespread persecution of evolutionary thinkers oh well this is cheerful stuff start your week off right yeah i would say yeah um i mean if you're working in the public sector in a large west coast city i my number my top line piece of advice is to start making your escape plan um because you know what you're seeing right now is not changing anytime soon and is is only going to get more and more and more intense um and so you're absolutely right this this has become um you know going back to our jordan peterson discussion no one speaks more powerfully about this than he does the kind of movement of postmodern thinking and critical theory from the academy into the public sector has been a long time coming and and now we find for a combination of factors this confluence of uh this this way of looking at the world and this receptivity to it in the uh public policy world in the nonprofit world in the the corporate world there are lots there's a million different reasons that we could get into all of the weeds and talk for hours about why this is um but uh the reality is for you in the middle of that you either play along and recite the script as you were expected to or things are just going to get worse and worse and worse the screws are going to get tighter and tighter and tighter for you um and so you're in a situation where you are very much not in a position of power and i would just start making your exit plan start thinking about what it is that you really want to be doing with your days what kind of um you know work might reflect that whether it requires moving to a new location working in the public sector in a location that is not as affected as yet by all of this sort of thinking um although that that's time limited too um but yeah this is the drift of politics and um it's it's very much trending toward your you're in the in group or the out group on this question you really can't straddle the fence people have been able to do that for some time they've been able to stay out of the discussions or pledge some sort of big louie and let themselves just kind of be educated and caught up but it's uh it's a dangerous game especially if you're working for for the the state or for the city year um you know you're drawing your pay from the public coffer i would just start really really thinking hard about what your alternatives look like at this point um and in general the the question about the full-scale persecution of this kind of ideology yeah i mean this is you're you're seeing this all over the place um a lot of it is i think i think cancel culture is absolutely real so if we if we want to frame it that way um what i am seeing is increasingly uh developing resistance to it among um people who expect it so there's there is this there's this pushback now um among a lot of people who have thought a lot about this and who uh you know are right in the crosshairs who are um just not going to allow themselves to be canceled peterson is one of them sort of like okay you know the mob is going to come for me based on what i'm saying um so let them come let them try to cancel me let them try to de-platform me maybe they will have some success with that but they they can't stop me entirely from speaking at least not yet and there seems to be some um immunity to the mob if you actually stand up to the mob and you don't crumble and you don't apologize they do move on they move on to their next target and in the meantime depending on the nature of of the sort of things that you're saying or what what you've been up to you might find yourself de-platformed and demonetized and um unable to make a consistent and predictable living for yourself and so there there is a lot of danger here but for most people who are sort of on the periphery of that who are they're not brett weinstein and heather heine they're not you know uh jordan peterson they're not joe rogan they're not they're not really high level people who were in danger of being quote unquote fully cancelled and fully de-platformed i i think you just build up a bit of armor to the notion that somebody accusing you baselessly of being racist of of being sexist of uh having things wrong in some sort of horrible way that makes you a bad person just because they make those claims does not make them true and it does not mean that you need to shrink and apologize for them if you if you know yourself that they're not true so um that's sort of a wide-ranging question but for your practical purposes um yeah just get out get out and find yourself a better position of power all right cool yeah so don't bow to the mob and uh cancel culture is on your tail if you stay in the public sector i like how these principles they're all kind of related to disagreeable distance so it makes me think that a lot of the the canceled culture and some of the the uh the unpleasant things of of what what this listener is describing is due to disagreeable people with wrong ideas yeah yeah we've given disagreeable people with wrong ideas more power than they have ever had in human society um and i think these principles of disagreeable distance and find your own position of power and your own uh you know doug doug is always very consistent with this kind of recommendation like you just hunker down and take care of your little life and do your little thing and um don't fall victim to you know the what harry brown calls the burning issue problem or um any of these other things that will absorb our attention of course that's easier said than done when it's your job and you're immersed in these sort of things all the time but there is some some wisdom there um there is at some point the cb you know it's it's very difficult for me as someone who's watching um the deterioration of enlightenment principles that i hold very dear and and i think are incredibly central to the good life um just just being chipped away and in some cases completely demolished whether it's the permanent emergency of coved or um this kind of cancel culture thing that we're talking about there there are a lot of forces that are coming together right now to really transform the uh the central nature of the american project and at some point the cost-benefit analysis is you know you fight against that and you speak out as much as you can and and you do everything you can to stop that process um but if it is unstoppable what do you what do you do at what point do you lay down your weapon and say okay well i i have to find a way to pursue my own life liberty and happiness in this new context what does that look like what kind of life can i carve out for myself does that life necessitate continually screaming into the void where i i'm under a regime of digital totalitarianism that can very effectively contain and constrain any protest or critique that you might have so that you're you're not able to effectively get your message to anyone who would hear it or who would be moved by it we are we are subject now to regimes that are that are really able to you know nobody has to be disappeared nobody has to be uh taken out on a thrown off a ship in the middle of the night if they're a problematic dissident they can really be effectively digitized and silenced and unpersoned and and debanked and all of these things that that just okay so go ahead shout all you want you have free speech but no one's going to hear you we're we're down throttling your your twitter feed we're um you know we're shadow banning you everywhere that you might have access to persuading anybody so go there there we're gonna pat you on the head and uh go ahead get your message out so it just it becomes sort of this really um difficult and and uh for me personally very tragic philosophical question of you know what what does fighting for liberty mean if you're you're really not able to speak to anybody effectively or at all so uh yeah we're living in really really scary dangerous perilous upsetting times i talk about this all the time on on the hawk blocked podcast with doug and and just myself and i it's hard for me to think about anything else these days and this what what this questioner is really getting at um with cancel culture and uh you know trainings around these sort of themes in the workplace is a big part of it it really is part of a whole system that is transforming the culture that we live in wow well i hope uh i hope we have better news in a few years yeah i don't think we will [Laughter] yeah i've been i've been exploring this phone it's a it's an anti-mobile phone it's an anti-smartphone so it's called the light phone i got myself on the list for that app yeah so i have i have one but i just i i can't quite bring myself to cancel my my normal service and just use the light phone it has there i think they have one now with gps and some of the some of the necessities like if you need a direction somewhere but this one has no apps no nothing it's just phones and text message so but now i'm wondering with all the uh you know declarations that you have to do digitally with every place you enter now uh if if you can even survive in the in the normal social world without a smartphone with a camera i mean i think this is the big this this is this is the test this is this is the moment where we could turn it around is if there was a collective movement to essentially you know like like burning draft cards with vietnam we we burn we smash our cell phones we smash our smartphones we we detach from the surveillance state um if if that if there were critical mass for people to do that um this could be stopped we we could we could find a way forward in the in a way that would that would be in alignment with the what charles murray calls the american creed or the you know the center of the american project or enlightenment principles or whatever we want to call it um but of course i mean i would urge everybody to just do the thought experiment just really think about i mean i'm in the same place that you are with the light phone i really like the idea of it but then i'm i'm thinking about okay well am i really just gonna go around life without a camera with me all the time i think that is that even possible i'm gonna i'm gonna miss so many photos of my adorable dogs and the and the the beautiful views and the vegetables that i'm growing and uh like if my life is not documented every second does it even exist um and i'm i'm right on the outside of i'm still generation x like i'm the i'm the dying breed of people who do remember a childhood without the internet and without these devices and um i particularly growing up in alaska where it all came to us quite late and i have a hard time imagining letting those things go so so the people who are younger than me um for whom this has just been this ever present which is which is more than half the population by now you know nothing makes you feel older than realizing you're older than the the median age of the country um but it's like the you know they can't i i really when i seriously think about it like what would it mean to not have a smartphone to really close down every every social media account that i have like not just you know leave it to to get weeded and or just to get overrun with weeds but to really shut it down um to just completely withdraw from from internet life it's unthinkable it's it's really just an unthinkable thing to do i'm like how could i reach people how could people like i could have an old school calendar and people could call me and send me paper checks to pay me but how would they find me if i couldn't it's like all of these things how do you make a living how do you how how do you connect how do you how do you socialize um so we've lost our answers to those things and so we're just completely dependent on the technology that is destroying us because it is being used to control us in ways that is that the people have never been controlled at this sort of level this effectively ever before in history this is more effective than violent coercion of course there's been you know the the history of in some way we've improved yeah well yeah i mean we have improved we're not subject to some bloody leviathan who is just you know chopping off heads of people that just disagree with running us over yeah so so there is there's there's great you know great reason to be happy and applaud and excited about all of this but at the same time it is it is a form of control um that i i don't think can be unwound and i think with every passing generation the the younger people are the more ensnared they are in that system and and the more they really do become subject to the whims of the state and allowed to be a citizen in the in the ways and the shape that the state sets out for them wow well before everyone goes smashing their phones and deleting other accounts i guess first things first is uh is uh cleaning our own rooms right yeah although i would i would categorize this as part of cleaning your own room what how do you spend your time how do you spend your hours how much time are you actually spending um giving away information about what you value and what you fear to people who have the ability to control your movements and your priorities so worth an inventory i just i mean i don't know if people have seen citizen iv or the dramatized version of of the edward snowden story i think just called snowden um the the extent of the surveillance oh well there you go yeah it's because they're they actually are listening it's not you don't need a tin foil hat to make the argument that they're listening more than listening they they every single phone call every single text message every single whatsapp message every everything um i don't know i actually don't know about whatsapp's encryption policies but but for the most part unless it's end-to-end encrypted fairly securely it is being logged and stored and it is sitting there waiting for somebody to build a case against you so you don't have to say anything you're not being actively targeted um if you're if you haven't run a foul of the law but if you run a foul of the law at some point according to somebody's arbitrary perception of what running afoul of the law means at that moment they go back and they comb through this this enormous catalog of data going back you know decades now on you and they put together a dossier and and you know make a case against you that is that's the real heart of all of the problem of the surveillance state is not only how it can constrain and direct your behavior in real time just by uh through through algorithmically pointing you in directions that benefit corporate interests and whoever else is paying for your attention but it is this vulnerability to a state that suddenly has decided that you are a problem and you are the enemy that your entire life is is just sitting there waiting to be arrayed against you in ways that serve those interests um and with every little agreement of every little terms of service we have just willingly signed all of that away um and and then some i mean some of it is is certainly beyond what we ex what we would expect from the terms of service agreement to be taken but um yeah it's uh anyway we're getting we're getting into the weeds and we started off talking about relationship workplace dynamics and now it's just me ranting about the surveillance pharmaceutical state again but that's what always happens so yeah that's no problem at all i mean if we were talking about therapists and how they talk about you know wrong ideas dr lyle would be winding out about that's true these types of things so yeah we've all got our triggers and that and we love them from you both dr lyle i mean dr hawk and doctor is that another did you do that on purpose or do you really have another little friday and slip there well first for like four and a half years i was saying dr lyle first uh and and you know i'm wearing the microphone i mean you know i'm having this whole set up so i guess my brain's conditioned yeah all right sounds good well we'll we'll shut it down before they come knock on our doors to haul us away thank you so much so much for your insights i really appreciate it and um if you want to hear dr hawk or dr lyle or both of them you can visit www.esteemdynamics.com and check out the living wisdom library where you can hear them talk all about the fundamentals and also with everything related to evolutionary psychology thank you again dr hawk and we'll talk to you real soon you
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