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Episode 249: Washed Up Jimmy is Offended, Do Friends and Business mix
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well you know i did a recap show um a couple weeks ago for the 20 you know end of 2020 and in there uh we heard uh dr hawk's musings uh throughout the year some of my favorite clips of dr hawk some of dr lyle's favorite clips and one of the clips was her praising uh jimmy the guitar player and um and so it just so happens that in episode 244 um we had uh dr hawk described uh jimmy the guitar player but uh this time with a more pejorative twist which is washed up jimmy so now now and now now this is a mischaracterization that's not what happened there is no there's no one jimmy the guitar player that whose character i was impuning on the show i was speaking of jimmy's who happened to be washed up yes that does not describe uh our our devoted jimmy the guitar player nor many many successful jimmies who are pursuing their their passions and interests in a variety of ways and with a variety of women and with a variety of women as is their as if they're right in life that's a great point and i stand corrected i may have mischaracterized it so yeah that's that's what i meant to say good there you go setting the record straight yeah yeah no and that yeah exactly so you do were describing the kind of jimmy that the listener actually was interacting with which is just some washed up jimmy that was not not doing her right i mean sorry not treating her right god i'm sorry oh jesus oh that was a total accident clearly it's just it's time to just [Laughter] all right well lo and behold i got a voicemail uh i got a voicemail from washed up jimmy who had some interesting things to say to you dr hawk and dr lyles so um i've cued it up uh in your i sent you guys a link so please please prep please press play yeah hi this is jimmy the guitar player uh from canada and i just wanted to let you know that i was very offended by some comments that were made uh about jimmy's on the podcast a few weeks ago you know some of us really do have a lot of potential and it seemed like you were questioning our intelligence and i don't think the fact that i had to look up the word wasteral in the dictionary means that i'm lacking as such because every other jimmy i know never heard of the word either so it says here webster's defines it as a wasteful or good-for-nothing person and i just think with all the potential that i have there's no way that that could be true and my mom agrees with me and also it says it could mean a waif or a neglected child and i can tell you that those chili cheese dogs at the open mic they don't eat themselves and i'm 35 so i'm not a child or a wife and i just think i just think an apology is in order i think well i i suppose i you know apologies where they are owed clearly you know there's a bell curve of potential and we are dealing here with a very high potential jimmy so i all apologies are due i i i stand corrected that was very cool that was well done yeah that's a that that that's a first-class jimmy right there we got a really great one well all good well all right good speaking of washed-up jimmy we've have actually a question uh of one of our listeners and uh this was this was a discussion between our listener and a friend who identifies as a washed up jimmy dear doctors i think he means dr hawk but that's okay yeah doctors my friend who identifies as a washed up jimmy took offense at episode 244 he felt that the doctors were undervaluing washed up jimmy's potential contribution to a relationship at first i found his grumblings silly but as the conversation progressed he made an interesting point in a society that is bringing women into the workplace and displacing men in the process there will inevitably be more and more relationships with higher earning females as evolutionary psychologists we can see that this will run afoul of our ancient attraction circuits but isn't this a necessary trade-off of the gender equality movement if women in the workforce must status settle and vote on a lower earner why not have a washed-up jimmy as opposed to a low-earning horus low-earning horrors can neither provide sexuality nor security maybe this is why this is a recurring dynamic in dr hawk's practice the conversation got me thinking that perhaps a society that adheres to traditional gender roles is more conducive to viable romance very intelligent and fun let's uh let's look at some things the truth of the matter is it the society sort of never really changes uh you you continue to wind up with the same dynamic so the uh the the woman doesn't say well gee now that i make 80 000 a year now now what i think i'm going to do is i'll just go ahead and go down to somebody who makes 35 000 as a guitar player and because he's hot now she's going to want somebody that makes 125. so that's how it works so the the female admiration mechanism her head rocks back and she's looking to look up a little bit that's just how it is now so as women women have been making a very good livings relative to men for a long time it doesn't change the dynamic so uh each individual woman has her own payoff matrix that is uh that's consistent with her personal life circumstances and her personality and uh so very often uh so they don't they don't basically say oh i have you know say some gal that uh that makes two hundred thousand dollars a year definitely does not say oh well then fine no problem i'm just gonna fish for the most entertaining best-looking guy that i can find it's not what she does she still looks for provisioning okay and so and typically is looking to her peer group is is how that works somebody that is her peer that because he's a male he's working like hell and he's working 10 or 15 percent harder than she's working and he's out earning her so he's probably a little bit older so all of these things still wind up with the same kind of dynamic and differential up and down the food chain now uh there's uh so so the trade-off it doesn't that it isn't the case that um that there aren't relationships where the the female makes more than the male there are it turns out that in cases where that's true they're more likely to divorce uh by the way in other words so the the female is sort of running this uh cb and the cb runs all over the place uh given an individual female circumstances and it winds up being effectively a two-factor equation and we don't uh you know we never get rid of it it's just sort of a constant uh jen your thoughts about this yeah and that's the first thing that comes to mind for me it's it's not you know you don't have women who are suddenly thrown into the workforce and high achieving on par with men who it's this all or nothing proposition oh if i can't find someone in my peer group who has comparable provisioning abilities and comparable intelligence and everything else then oh i'm just going to suddenly switch on a bunch of latent casual mating circuits and go go for the jimmy rather than look for the best pair bond that i could find so um yeah she's going to she's most likely still going to be you know if if it is some sort of if she's got some sort of specialty job where she i i can't even think what field this would be where women are systematically out earning the men um you know she's still certainly she seems like the opposite would be true well yeah yeah okay um but that's that's uh you know she's got more if she's looking to date within her peer group among kindergarten teachers she has a big you know a big marketing problem anyway um although my kindergarten teacher was male which is i i always was really mr mr rocky he was fantastic it's a rare thing to find a male kindergarten teacher um but most of the time if she's you know she's sort of high achieving and and looking within her work in peer group uh she's going to be outnumbered by men in most of these fields so i don't see this as being a huge problem and the the female uh mating process is not such that it's it's gonna it's just gonna throw a throw in the towel and be like i'm gonna go for the the hot guitar player because i just give up on this process so should if if it's someone who makes 5000 less a year than her that's still better than completely abandoning a parabon entirely and and downgrading to it to a jimmy that said of course there are women who have more casual mating circuits in general um and women who are uh you know whether it's through a kind of dynamic process where they've been sensitized to it with um with dating apps and everything else where the jimmies are omnipresent on the dating apps um and that's who's giving them the most positive feedback that could contribute to some of this process too um but yeah i don't see this as being a huge problem and mellie doesn't either that's why she she had to scratch in the background it's more of an entertaining question than it is anything else i.e why why don't the chicks just once they make once if they're going to do really well why not just trade down and have some fun and the uh and the truth of the matter is not typical of female psychology it's not it's coming from an egocentric bias right it's really tough to understand that female psychology that how how not unimportant physical attractiveness is obviously physical attractiveness is important but it does not operate in the female mating strategy in anything like the same way that it does from the male perspective it's just a way different process and so this kind of idea that yeah there's there's this hot guitar play number out there that is going to you know somehow fulfill the yearning to have a full pair bond it's just not that it's apples and oranges there we go um what would you say for the women who are very high earners relative to their peers in that particular profession would you say they may be more likely to be highly higher testosteronized and therefore more more casual mating oriented and so they can just it can skew you know somebody's perspective if they kind of meet some of those girls and uh and then they think oh well i'll hire anyone there like that and wait a second i didn't hear you so what you you're talking about what did you have a specific profession that you were talking about no no no okay just yeah okay so um and then i miss you i'm wondering if the the higher earning females um uh that might be responsible for their personality i mean part part of it might be part part of it maybe their personality that's responsible for them being so successful uh if they're and so if they're driven they're more maybe you know more disagreeable therefore more testosteronized and so they're more more likely to have more casual mating encounters i doubt it more openly i don't think so no i think uh i think that that i don't think that that uh uh you know what that that's it actually that's an interesting question for for some um for some kind of curious young professor of of uh social evolutionary psychology to see if he can uh he or she could could run a little data on that uh but if there was if there was any truth in it i would expect that the effect size would be very small the uh most of that remember anybody that's super high achieving is generally also going to be very high in conscientiousness and so they're not going to be there it's their their life is going to look like it's ruled by a great deal of conscientiousness so they're probably not going to be sloppy about their mating behavior not in the middle of a of a big six figure career so yeah i don't you don't see that uh that's it you'll go ahead and check i think it's an intuitive kind of cliche that you see you know in in uh pop culture the kind of ball busting lawyer who has the boy toy on the side the sort of like there's this kind of there's this i think that is that there is this intuition because those women are by definition sort of unusual um and and so they you notice them more both because they are high achieving high earning in in these high-profile uh positions and career choices and because they're they're sort of acting in this male like way so this you know right as everyone knows i'm a huge fan of of reality dating tv shows and this is kind of a dynamic that you will see that gets a lot of advertising because it's so it's so upside down that it's just inherently interesting but it tells us that it's not very common right yeah i i worked in a uh you know obviously i worked in the downtown county courthouse in in dallas for five years as the in-house psychologist for the probation department and so i was running into all kinds of female lawyers and there was no scuttlebutt about any of that going on not at all i mean it was it wasn't even it wasn't even entertaining conversation yeah that that's just not how it was uh if anything they're walking around with big fat diamonds on because they're they're married to some [ __ ] kicking uh litigator you know in the da's office or in a private firm you know they're not they're they're not out just quote uh having fun and being wild because they can yeah not at all right ah okay yeah thank you yeah all right and and it would be it would be such a yeah it'd be such a liability for them professionally um yeah you know women are going to be in this particularly especially if they are high highly conscientious enough to achieve that that level in their chosen profession they're going to be very sensitive to the optics of getting themselves into something sloppy with some jimmy yeah so yeah i think jen got it right perfect i mean the uh what you were saying i can't remember what you were just saying jen it was perfect the um i'll forget it i lost it i have to go back and listen oh just just this just now with this guy no yeah like to 30 45 seconds ago the uh i don't know oh just that oh that it's it's rare and therefore it's entertaining and titillating that that's that's that's where this is all coming from plus your insight that the questioner has egocentric bias all over the place the those two things put together to make this a titillating question that that has no heart in it yeah yeah i think you you look at the you know if we were to look at the most high achieving women in you know politics and supreme court and elsewhere these are very conservative yes you know family oriented females who are nonetheless very high achieving and perhaps you know what looks like testosteronized behavior is just super high conscience yeah so so and disagreeableness yeah yeah yeah i'll have to file this under wishful thinking [Laughter] you're telling me so tell me that the jimmies actually have to work hard and actually put in yeah well actually they're hitting on the waitress just like they should be yeah well and every jimmy has his his uh you know his cinderella fantasy that he's going to find a sugar mama like this is there's nothing wrong a really hot one it's good to have dreams yeah so i mean the reason that it is a stereotype and it is kind of this titillating cliche because there's always the possibility so you know keep keep aiming high keep strum on the guitar it's good practice for something that's right all right let's move on all right we're going to pivot to a different topic here and that is uh dear doctors i recently tried and failed to make my best friend into a trading partner she needed money and seemed like she would be an asset to my business i had started an academic proof reading company and i hoped that she would become one of my most reliable editors because she told me she had great experience and lots of her own clients after she did a few less than perfect jobs for me i decided i would not be passing on any more work to her since i was losing money i had to get her work re-edited by someone else at the time i didn't want to hurt her feelings by telling her the work wasn't good enough so i paid her said nothing and hoped she would just get the idea several months later she realized what has happened and cannot forgive me as a friend for me this was a purely business decision and was not meant to be personal even though i now feel bad for her and how i handled the situation i can't accept that i should have done different but i've now lost a friend over a commercial decision and that feels super gross was this conflict of interest inevitable and is there any way to salvage this friendship thank you for your wisdom as always yeah good question uh jan thoughts on this oh i mean this is such a tough question you know the question is is there was this inevitable i i think in this kind of situation always your best strategy is some version of big louie if you can pull it off you know so and it might not be it might be too late to call upon a big louis but maybe it's not so we don't know all the details of this but that's that's what occurs to me first is if there is a way to sort of communicate this for perhaps if we could go back in time to you know hey it's not it's not me passing judgment on on your abilities here um but it's you know it's a force bigger than me you know the the other boss of the you know i have to give this job to somebody else because it's their niece or something you know there's got to be some sort of way to soften the blow in that way um but it sounds like you that that opportunity is passed and we're now in this situation where she's she's taking something very personally that um she you know she's feeling rejected by you as a friend and she really her feelings are not um they're not really appropriate for the situation because it is just a commercial commercial decision and it wasn't a rejection of her as a friend so she's kind of emotionally out of line but she's also really hurt so um depending on what kind of what kind of uh rapport the two of you have and how long this friendship has been going on this may just be a short-term storm too that you might be able to get through as you as you go forward and be able to talk about this in a different sort of way but i think the more you can remove it from you know a personal decision on her abilities that you were making and make it more about you know the drift of the company or you know the direction things are going or the other people wanted to to do something else and just de-personalize it de-personalize it as much as possible um that's gonna soften the blow so that's the that's the first thing that occurs to me but this is a really this is a tough situation for sure because um i've been i've been on kind of both sides of that equation and it's really really tough when you mix friendship and business in a ghost hour like that yeah yeah um the uh the big louis that occurred to me jen that uh and i don't know that this would i have no idea exactly what the circumstances are but one thing that we can sometimes do is say listen this was this was hard for me to deal with but let me explain why and the the reasons why is that that uh when it comes to this proofreading um you're very good and you're right that you're very good but you actually have to be outstanding for for me to you know for our company to actually uh make it work so it turns out that your work was was very good but it wasn't quite up to what it is that we need to survive we got a lot of competition the margins are really narrow okay so we looked at it you know what i mean and we we have a way that we assess this and we had to look at it real carefully and i i unfortunately i didn't you know i didn't step up and really tell you because i was hoping that uh that maybe you would get a little bit better or maybe that it was good enough but we kept coming back where whereas you know even though you're absolutely you know your your professional level quality but it wasn't good enough for what what it is that we need to compete in okay so that's a that's uh that kind of a story is um you know it changes it from pass fail to you know essentially a b c and you're a b student no no shame but we had to have a students okay we had many excellent applicants yeah we wish we could offer you a position yeah right that's basically how you're that's how we're well that's how we're trying to do we're trying to put ink in the water and there's some truth in it i'm sure she's better than an average college sophomore english major so but the truth is and she knows that she is so that's that would probably ring fairly true and it and it might might get you uh through that mess uh there's another another little technique depending upon how motivated you are i mean i completely agree with jen that the unfortunately this gal is she's twisted up uh she doesn't really quite grasp this perspective she doesn't actually believe that she's substandard uh she's not thinking that so instead she's thinking that she got essentially betrayed you know by the coalition and so we need to re-educate her as gently as possible about that and then what we need to do is we it depends upon how motivated you are and it just doesn't take it actually doesn't take that much energy it takes a little bit of imagination and a little bit of diligence it's what i call chinese water torture okay so when we've had a relationship go south whatever it is what we need to do is we need to drip little positive drips on their head okay and that may go on for a while so if this was a good friend you might realize you might have a year of chinese water torture where over the next year five times you're going to uh on some legitimate occasion their birthday the summer solstice whatever it is there's some reason you're going to contact them and you're going to uh you're going to do something nice for them because you were thinking about it okay thinking about them so uh you know maybe it's a a little gift card to i don't know barnes and noble where she can read get pick up a book about proof reading if you do write it on the card make sure you spell it right okay so oh my god so the point is so uh the point is is that yeah if we drop little things on them like that we'll see there there's a what we're doing is we're continually working on their cb okay and we're continuing by doing that we're giving them a message that we are we are essentially sorry that they are upset and we understand it and we actually don't hold their upsettingness against them we still consider them to be more benefit than cost even though they weren't more benefit than cost within those narrow parameters of that job okay so but we can t we drip that news on them and we see whether or not if one day the flower opens now i did this with a uh [Music] with a client that was being shunned by their family for something uh in prison so this was somebody that was imprisoned and i can't remember i i cannot for the life of me understand remember what the parameters were and what the dynamics were of this particular individual situation i do remember what it took though it took a letter a nice letter that they wrote for two years okay two years later the chinese water torture cracked open whoever it was on the other side and then it resumed communication so uh it took you know whatever that was 26 letters or whatever it was i can't remember exactly it was something in that range though uh in other words by by focusing on the process rather than the outcome uh i just said listen this is what you can do okay we can't do anything else all we can do you know you you can't buy them presents you're in prison you have no money okay there's nothing else you have no other avenue other than you can write to them and it's exceedingly likely that they're going to open it and that they're going to read it so therefore what you're going to do i i remember we had a simple little schematic i think the the party was you know the baby mama and the kid something like that i i don't remember it's now it's starting to come back to me vaguely so i think that um it was um i think what we did was we we had the guy write something about you know something uh yeah now i remember actually we we we were looking all month i said i want you to look all month for anything that's funny that happens between the prisoners and the guards some goofy thing okay you keep your eyes peeled for it and then that becomes part of the story okay and then listen on the prison yard for jokes okay and uh you listen any good joke you know that's a good one you're gonna keep track of these things and so every letter uh and then look for any of these little periodicals that around that if there's any little cartoons you're gonna send a cartoon along with it but i'm remembering this all now that's coming back to me so the the letter was hi how you doing then you're going to say something that good that good or interesting happen in the prison and what the what good food they had on wednesday night they had lasagna and then so in other words we're not going to be moping and whining about anything and then we're going to say something goofy and funny that happened either a prisoner looked silly or a guard looked silly and that some little goofy situation and then we're going to uh send a little cartoon and then we're just going to sign off and say hope hope very much you're doing well yeah two years okay two years later that relationship cracked open and it re-emerged so that's what i call it you just keep dripping the cb on their head that's all you can do people okay you can't do anything else so you just continue to signal that they have a steam with you and you don't we don't get angry and frustrated and pissy and boy you should have seen some of the letters that i looked at when uh when prisoners were pissed at their family just these long you know eight page rails against how unfair the families being and how they this and how they that and how they've been wronged it's like yeah well no wonder they haven't visited you okay so uh yeah instead we go this other direction think what we want to do there's two principles that come to mind here principle number one is the the issue of the cost benefit the other principle is the principle of distortion so jen was referring to the fact that the woman on the other side of this has a distorted view of her value and a distorted view of the decision then to essentially terminate her and not use her okay so and what it means about how our party values her in general so did our party did she lose value to our party in this process yes we thought that she was better than she was okay however our our relationship and friendship with her was not predicated on how outstanding she was as a proofreader so therefore even though she wasn't as good as we thought you know that's like finding out that alan isn't as good a bowler as i thought he was it's like hey i thought you were good you were bragging about it you brags about everything else [Laughter] it actually is it just so happens that alan was a very good bowler but i just i just brought that out of a 50-year memory the uh uh but the point is is that that big deal so it's really not that big a deal and you're not thinking of it it's a big deal but we have a crisis that that is now we've got a distorted process now and all that we can do is hope for the chance to de-distort the process so we can do it with an opening letter where we describe the issue of excellence versus very good and so i'm so sorry and it was a hard decision and i wasn't ever really clear so i dragged on and then it just sort of did it you know by by default okay and it wasn't right and so we stand up and we make that apology because it's you know we and so we're putting some ink in the water because actually she's so so and we needed her to be very good but you know so what we give her a little great inflation everybody else does so the um so we do that and therefore we we de-distort you know the the issues of the crisis which is that we're not really rejecting her because she's not that valuable as a human it's extremely narrow and it's not really particularly important to our overall evaluation of her so if it turns out that she has a personality uh streak and she's going to hold us against us she's not fair in the face of this kind of goodwill then that's okay then then she's giving us an opportunity to actually show us who she is and then you'll probably won't value her as much that was that was a point i was going to make is that that's another part of the de-distortion process right this if this continues to be the central defining feature of your friendship throughout the ages you know and she really is not able to see past this then this something on this order was going to happen the first time the two of you encountered any kind of conflict of interest so it happened to take the form of your business interest but but this is showing you that she is you know in in terms of the fairness trading partner that we talk about you we're going to run into trouble sooner or later um and that it's being held against you so um definitively is really it's just an early it's it's an early warning shot and it's showing you who she is beautiful i i would also say go ahead jen oh no you go go ahead you i know you were wrapping around to a second point too but i i have one more thing to add so we're going to really okay i will uh i when when something like this happens um obviously we use chinese water torture and we use the most direct possible avenue towards circumscribing whatever the issue is and and trying to paint the paint the relationship around that problem so that they understand it's not that important to us in the overall cb so if that's how we feel that's what we do etc now if it turns out that it's a mess that can't be fixed then i have the following reaction and that is even though you can be irritated that's okay the real big reaction that you should have is one of relief okay and that is it's like good i'm really glad you showed me that now not seven years from now when i've invested more time and energy in this relationship and and we might be playing for bigger stakes seven years from now and then it turns out that you've got character character uh characteristics that i didn't know were there okay so the uh i uh i said something on on our our on our and our internal discussion that jen and i had with our uh living with some library group a couple days ago i and i i just had figured out this is the year that jen and i have known each other five years i don't recall that we've ever had an argument okay i i actually can't remember one can you no which is amazing because it's not like we haven't had conflicts of interest yeah and it's it's not it's also yeah we've got a number of possible conflicts of interest we've waded into a lot of ground where there could be large conflicts of interest we we've have somewhat different how we see the world from male perspective female perspective you know left leaning versus light right leaning libertarian-esque and so we've got you know some political background rumblings that that could cause conflicts of interest but the answer is no never had a single never had five seconds of it and so there's just been no [ __ ] at all and so that that lets me know wow if we've we've been through this water already it's been you know mildly choppy choppy enough that it's like there's no problem this is a grand investment it feels like super great investment every day because it's just you're just building constantly better goodwill of deeper water that one of the two of us or both of us might face in the future over something you know but if i make some offhand really off-call or sexist comment someday he gets caught on national tv and we get jen's gonna jen's gonna throw me under the bus oh totally in a second that is such a thing such a thing happened though i would understand because i i asked for it [Laughter] but the but this is but the point of all this is yet sometimes if you run into a rough one and you can't fix it with excellent goodwill and a very decent strategy then you know so be it and that's and we we make peace with that then we need to do the best we can and we need to really think it through and make sure we've executed an extremely fair good sensitive strategy if we've done that and it still fails then we then it's like okay i i can live with it and that that's how we get inner peace out of it yeah yeah the the only other thing i'd add there's some breadcrumbs in the way the question is asked that give me the feeling that she's in financial scarcity she's like right uh you know there was something something about how she needs the money and she's you know she's selling herself as having being very successful having lots of clients but if that were true then maybe she wouldn't be in this position of needing money so this just file this under d distortion where maybe she needs to get through a period of time where she's feeling cornered financially and particularly stressed and she was more she was leaning on you as an insurance policy to get her through a hard time um and so that's part of why she's taking it personally and that that will given you know as she reestablishes some financial security and she feels less cornered by her circumstances this is not going to be a salient for her so it's more hurtful now because it's the this was her ticket to financial security and it's been taken away from her when she she thought she could count on you as a friend to get her through a tough time and she's essentially confronting the fact that that insurance policy on the friendship is not paying out like she thought it was going to pay out because it got muddied by this this um this business arrangement so right that is something that that yes if you keep the keep the door open keep the goodwill flowing let her know that you're still there as a friend the insurance policy is still valid that it just you know it didn't apply in this particular precondition then then as she moves into a different stage of her life then the friendship could find its footing again abs rock rock and solid beautiful that that's i hadn't thought of that but that is that you're right it's right it's right there and she would be particularly sensitive you know totally right she's already being beat up by the market so and feeling really insecure about it yes and feeling you know really down on her talents probably so we've got one of two things and this goes back to this is why you do something like the i'm not going to call it by the name you're calling it which is terribly politically incorrect different name i was a kid i watched james bond movies that's sorry but but that sort of process of just keeping keeping the door open and you know reaffirming that you're there for her um so yeah yeah we we don't know i so that is basically the experiment that you do to discover whether it's hypothesis one is true she's you know she thinks she's really hot [ __ ] and she's been rejected and it's not fair or whether hypothesis two is true which is that she's feeling really scared and really financially insecure and that she was counting on a friend who didn't didn't come through for her when she thought that he was um or if it's some uh combination of those two or something else you you have to kind of you know engage in the in in the openness and the and staying present for her to discover what the truth of the relationship is but you will discover the truth of the relationship over time that's the that's like the fundamental principle of all relationships is the truth the truth emerges over time as long as you you stay in a space that facilitates truth-telling i got a question so are are you telling me that i can't call the chapter chinese water torture is that what you're telling me is this our first fight are we having our first fight on air no i'm just asking i'm just asking i just i just i got my answer no we can't no we can't call it come up with you've got a powerful right brain died you can come up with a better name than that all right well that's wonderful all right nate dr lyle thank you so doctor dr hawk if i understand you correctly you're kind of beautifully tying this into the first question by essentially getting her to her friend to understand to hate the game not the players that is that did i get that right it's a stretch but i'll give it to you there you go all right over shotgun all right close enough yeah good good all right well thank you guys very much and uh we'll talk to you guys next week you
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