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Episode 244: Washed up Jimmy, Lazy Millenials, Covid mandates, New normal
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let's go all right dear doctors as a somewhat successful woman in her late 30s i find many men attracted to my stability i feel almost viewed as an asset to potential mates in the dating arena someone they would show off to their parents even to hear quote we could do so much with our incomes combined okay dr lyle has stated men are not much concerned about provisions from the woman i would like to hear your download on this along the same lines i hire a dozen or so people a year to help in labor-type jobs most of the individuals are in their twenties and seem to lack work ethic compared to people in their later thirties i automatically think that the millennials lack work ethic and it is quote learned behavior how do you explain this from an evolutionary standpoint my point is this if laziness isn't learned why does it seem to me like we have more lazy people today than previous generations well let's start let's start with the the mating thing uh jen why don't you start with that and let's let's hear your uh hear your take on that well i think the the answer to the two-part question i mean on on its face it sounds like two very different questions but i think the answer is actually the same which is that you're looking at an opportunistic cb yeah so so it's it's funny i talked to a lot of clients where i have heard some version of this story so many times that it's it's actually like become a type that i can kind of anticipate based on certain characteristics of the story so successful woman in her in her 30s or 40s who's out there on the dating market and usually a personality type that's very conscientious i.e successful and usually pretty agreeable and gets some waste roll who latches on really really really quickly like usually the first person that they meet on a dating site and they go out with and they then they call me and they're trying to like justify all of the all of the different things that this guy is doing and his mixed signals and all all these dynamics in this relationship which are really just reflecting that you've got this um this less successful gentleman who is trolling match.com looking for a meal ticket more or less and there are variations of this story it's not always quite quite that cut and dried um if you've got guys saying you know what what could we do with our incomes combined that is implying that he's at least employed that's that's great but i think most of the time when you're running into this dynamic where you have a male who is interested in you as a financial asset to the the union of the relationship that is a male who is not very confident about his own ability to provide and protect in an ancestral sense and he is he is definitely running a cb on uh the the actual financial interest that you're bringing to the relationship um so i would say that you're probably you've got a little bit of personality distortion that is likely leading you into these scenarios where your your you know ie why do i attract the same kind of guy over and over again it's because you're likely very conscientious and probably pretty agreeable so you have a little bit of the sucker triad and you have these guys who are seeking to exploit you just like other people in your life have most likely sought to exploit you so that is i i would assume a lot of what is going on with with a recurring romantic dynamic that looks like that um we can get into how that applies to the other part of the question but that i mean i would say the the very short answer to that is that millennials are not any lazier than any other generation inherently but they are running an opportunistic cost-benefit analysis on their environment that says hey i i don't have to work as hard right now as i would have in previous generations and so why go to all the trouble of making effort if it's not necessary that's going to be a cb that runs across not only this species but every species it's just energy conservation so my dog runs the same cost-benefit analysis if it doesn't have to hustle for its food it's going to be as lazy as possible as it can as it can get away with as if it's still being you know consistently provisioned by me so i think the same basic dynamics are at work with both of these scenarios and you're just looking at human animals who are taking advantage of the situation at hand with energy conservation running the show fab fabulous perfect from my perspective i would i'd be because i'm me and i've got this uh sort of you can't help but have a cynical you just can't help it i mean my view actually isn't cynical it's just uh it's just sort of a systematic you know precision seeking uh with any question like this what's also underneath this that that i i don't know that this occurred to jen or whether or not she's being kind the also remember that it's likely that the male that's making those kinds of noises is sufficiently sexually attractive that you're biting on it so yeah that's that's uh that's part of this equation and so that's implied by by waist roll i should have said you know like washed up washed up rock star wasters understand yeah actually i heard the word and i knew that that's what you were implying so these guys are always they always have a little music on the side too every time i talk to a client who's in this situation the guy the guy does you know open mic night down at the bar once a month so yeah they're aging jimmy's who are running out of other options yeah and so they're they're going to compil bind their low middle income job to your high middle income job and it's like hey well when it all adds up it adds up pretty well [Laughter] um you know that's also that's actually a really good that that reminds me of another quality of jimmy's which is they have they have spent their lives sort of monetizing potential like they're sort of they're going through life just selling people on how all the greatness that can come about if you partner up with me uh you know if i just ha if i if my ship comes in everything's just going to be great i'm going to make it big everything's going to be fantastic and so yeah our incomes combined is probably not he's probably not talking about the actual income that he's bringing to the relationship but this amorphous idea of how you're going to make him better by your your your wonderful feminine energy that's going to inspire him to do great things in the world and that this is unlikely to happen you can tell by looking at him that he's got big things you know he's got the potential so much potential yeah so this doesn't necessarily refer to this questioner but it it refers to that genre of questions that uh and so i i would stand by my assessment that if the male's making those kinds of noises he's he's not sleeping up it's unlikely okay uh he's he's looking to uh he's looking to i.e cut a corner and he's willing and he's willing to do it so uh males that are uh now or is this 100 of the time no believe it or not our favorite friend jan larry there larry told his his lovely wife he says okay it's okay with me now listen cheryl we've been together 10 years now so you know me you know i'm in this with you so it's okay if you admit to me now that you're an heiress because i just soon live life so oh well larry larry's a very special personality but uh but yeah that's i i think that's i think that that dynamic is sitting in this mix the waist drill dynamic and if you find yourself consistently you know being drawn to waste rolls and going out on dates with waste rolls it's it's likely because you you kind of are you either don't understand or you don't want to accept the the essential dynamics at the at the heart of the romantic interaction and particularly what should be driving your online strategy which is to not go you you don't want to be swiping yes on the guys who are immediately getting you excited because that's going to continue to lead you down this path so you want to you want to provide opportunities for quality men to win you over with repeat exposure and that's going to include guys that you're not necessarily that you know they don't have the shaggy hair in the profile photo they're not they're not posing with their guitar on the wall they're not they don't they don't have some sample of poetry that they've written that they want to share with you they're not they're not they're not wooing you with you know french art like all of these things they're all very exciting but they're all telltale signs that you're you're dealing with a a washed up jimmy which nothing worse than a washed up jimmy the the nothing finer than lesson listening to jen rip on this one it's beautiful i i know what i speak let's just say jen you don't have any issues about this at all i i spent years in the online dating world particularly in boston and seattle um falling into this trap over and over and over again so yeah learn from my mistakes do what i say not what i do exactly that's that's what i'm here for that's it oh my grand all right nathan what do we got what else all right um okay so our next question dear doctors i'm concerned when i hear people and even other doctors say things like masks and social distancing and virtual learning is the permanent new normal even dr mcdougall has voiced some of this recently on a web chat why is this the trend and is it going to be like this life isn't fun at all and i'm finding this very depressing months ago i shared dr ionitis and similar opinions on facebook and got shut down pretty hard i apparently had the audacity to question the mask wearing the social distancing concepts and got ugly angry responses it feels dystopian to me not a single person i know seemed to voice any of this am i the nut well what do you want jen we could flip for it [Music] this is more your your coveted wheelhouse so i'll let you get started and i'll pitch in as as needed it's safer for the podcast if you yeah well this is it's an interesting thing because i i have actually slipped you know over time i've i've gotten more into i i would i refuse to use the phrase new normal just because i feel allergic to it but um i do i i have become convinced that this is something that we are going to be dealing with at some level for a while um as as opposed to my earlier optimism on it so my position has shifted a little bit and i i think yours has as well to some degree so it's interesting getting this question now yeah yeah i think that um so there's multiple there's different perspectives here one of them is where are we at sociologically and right you know where where where does covid stand as a as a health concern and then where does it where does social distancing and mask wearing stand in terms of its actual utility so there's there's a variety of perspectives so um kovid has been a worse problem than i would have thought it's been more tenacious than i thought i saw when i saw all of the covet basically leave europe in mid-summer i assumed that that was the nature of what we would be seeing and so when we saw a resurgence taking place that surprised me so i thought that america was essentially ending its process in september october as i as it looked to be mimicking what was happening in europe in terms of the numbers uh now we're seeing a big resurgence so we see that the the virus is uh not nearly through with the population and it's now finding its ways in nooks and crannies that it wasn't before um i saw some uh high brow analysis that this that indicated that they had believed that by september or so 50 to 60 million people in america had had the virus so probably it's now up to you know 75 million or so but the point is is that out of those 75 million uh what we've wound up with is 250 million deaths so that that means that 250 000 that's right so um so that means that we've got um we've got a ways to go in other words that this this would continue and this is this is looking like it would percolate all of its its way to a 0.3 possibly a 0.4 uh lethal uh virus um so and it because it's novel is hitting everybody now the uh and it's getting through the system and it's getting the vulnerable people that that is what's transpiring and it's not it's not stopping so the social distancing and the mask wearing it are clearly not being very effective i'm sure they're having some effect certainly but it's you're seeing this thing continue to roll the um and so what's going to stop it ultimately is going to be the vaccine vaccines of various kinds and they're going to be effective and we're going to uh you know the future is going to be this problem is going to be dampened down substantially here in the next few months the um so what are my thoughts about it well my thoughts about it are that that uh certainly the concept that this is the new normal is completely bogus and there may be many people that have a lot of agendas that uh that are served personally uh by such a concept but such a concept is ludicrous the um it that wouldn't be the case if you if the coronavirus was a shifty virus that you couldn't get a vaccine to work so i i had no idea uh whether or not you know whether or not a vaccine was going to be possible so the fact that a vaccine has been figured out is just a testimony to extraordinary human ingenuity and knowledge at this point in history so we've got it figured out we don't know how safe it all is looks pretty good uh there there may be some collateral damage along the way which is going to be grisly and disturbing for people i won't be the first person lined up for a vaccine i'll be like a penguin in antarctica watching the other penguins jump in the water and see which ones get eaten by by sea leopards like i want to see that happen and then i'll then i'll think about it and i also plan on free writing on everybody else getting the viru or getting the vaccine so i'm planning my personal strategy uh for this but i expect that this landscape of the world is is uh they'll be rolling this thing out probably in america i don't know first of the year and this this will have a profound effect on on what it is that we're observing over a 90-day period or so so you can forget the concept that this is the new normal the only question is how much longer do we have this you know uh haywire economy and social process go on could it be six more months yeah it could be uh do i think so no i don't i think that i think that there will be sufficient evidence uh in the first 90 days of the the vaccine's release that i think that that that uh people will uh the the cachet and the political force and the hysteria behind this will be considerably impacted and i think it's i i don't think it's going to last that long the um now what do i think about the mass scoring and social distancing well um i i think it's you know it's certainly an individual personal decision about uh what kind of positions you personally want to put yourself in and um i think it's uh an an interesting civil liberties question about whether or not it's it's uh constitutional to actually be penalizing people for not wearing masks in public i think that uh that that's an interesting question that probably ought to be tested by the supreme court uh it doesn't make any sense to me personally uh makes sense to me personally that the government's not here to protect your health the government's here to protect your freedom and so uh this is they're they're making the case that that if you're a carrier you could be infecting other people but the truth is that's not true they are out in public they are exposing themselves to risk and so the uh if you're out there as well then we're all exposing ourselves to risk so the concept that uh that the mask wearing should be somehow mandatory and imposed by the government to me is pretty incredible um now the fact that that there would be social pressure behind it and that people would be sort of shaming each other and that people would believe that this would be super useful that i can understand and that's a sociological process that i think is fair game okay but uh but it is uh you you are not the nut there are uh many many people that that look at this whole thing and are rolling their eyeballs and saying no the mask wearing is ludicrous and uh the and to make it a civil liberties issue is is absurd and therefore you know i disagree many learned people disagree the uh the idea of this being a new normal i think is absurd i don't think that makes any sense at all and i think that i think the the current uh sort of emergency status and re-emergence of the virus particularly even now i understand sweden is going to go into some sort of lockdown now that's interesting the i can see a certain logic to it because there's a difference between walking down temporarily when you have a virus in your left hand ready to be used by your right hand so that's that creates a completely different situation um so for for myself i am now being probably a little bit more careful with myself because i might expose my mother that lives with me i'm being more careful now than i would have maybe three months ago i was reasonably careful but now i'm more careful why because it's like we're right at the end of the line here we're almost done and we actually at the same time we're seeing a resurgence in the virus probably due to thanksgiving get-togethers with families etc so the point is is that we've got we got a few we got some part of the football field we still have to get through and uh so for for yourself personally wear a mask don't wear a mask go in public don't go in public you know make your own choices i personally am pretty conservative and careful i'm also not militant enough to be to be daring the the the city fathers and the police and anybody else under the sun by not wearing my mask were it ought to be worn according to convention or law so i'm not doing that so i'm gonna go ahead and play along why because we're not playing along for 20 years the rest of my life we're playing along for a little while longer so suck it up it's not that bad we'll get through this fiasco and then it's going to be over the um i also i sincerely also expect at some point for the virus to have washed its way through the population i don't know when that would be and at what you know at what point it's basically done we're never probably going to know or we may not know very well because the vaccine will in fact come in and interrupt that process so if you're a vaccine maker you want to get to this right now as fast as you can because you want to take credit for it when it's gone in june whether or not whether or not you are a large engine of that or not but one way or the other we will return back to normal and the mask wearing and paranoia and all this sort of stuff will be you know a very interesting uh point you know and moment in world history and so that's what it will be but it will not institute a new normal acceptance you know there's a few things that will change so they've talked about how business travel may be curtailed what are people doing traveling for business anyway for god's sakes there's nothing you can say you know in tampa that you couldn't save from your house in dallas so uh that was just a waste of money and junk at traveling and everything else under the sun most of the time so certain practices will change and that's fine but they won't be out of terror for the coronavirus they will be because the coronavirus force new cost-benefit analyses to be done on certain lifestyle practices and those things will now shift to some degree but not behind any cowering new normal it'll just be you know modifications of human life as a result of this experience yeah dr lyle i think um you're right you're so right about the uh the traveling for business but someone always thought someone in business told me that that you have to see people in person it makes a big difference and of course this is a good-looking tall handsome dude so of course they were banking on the fact that someone gets to look at them and they can't can't think straight and talk straight uh you know i've heard many times of people who meet the salesperson and they're very attractive and then they can't say no to them you know or they will say they're pretty or they're pretty disagreeable and they bully them into a deal or whatever so in person but i i have a friend that was uh pharmaceutical rep and um she explained that most of the pharmaceutical reps are are men interestingly enough and she said the reason why that is is that the gatekeepers to the physicians are females and so by having yeah isn't that interesting jen that makes that makes a lot of sense yeah yeah and so yeah obviously those gatekeepers aren't going to be so effective if we're doing it by zoom okay so there's definitely going to be practices that are that are going to be in person and guys are going to want to go on the road why because you can't get laid over the internet or at least not quite [Laughter] well in every every business conference every academic conference i mean those are just hookup fiestas i mean there's there's no other reason that these things exist it's like everybody's staying in the same hotel everybody gets drunk at the sponsored reception it's like the trajectory of this is really clear there's a reason why everybody converges on chicago at the same time you know it's not it's not to share your great ideas that you've been working on all year that's that's very easily done virtually so yeah yeah yeah forget it yeah it's the new normal is going to be tossed back really quick i i anticipate a lot of i mean these fault lines that have been drawn politically over the last year really just extraordinary and you you now have these you know really really entrenched i i like ideologically defined battle lines where where people are not going to abandon those anytime soon i think the getting past the presidential election softens it but you still have some really confused incentives and people behaving essentially irrationally in one sense but very rationally from the point of view of their their um their interests and their affiliations and and i think you're gonna see um the same reason the same way that you have a spotlight effect on adverse uh consequences from kovid you know sort of the the freakish cases of the the 30 year old who had no pre-existing conditions who drop stud those are getting all the play and all the headlines the same way that that has been happening and to great effect and to great advertising revenue for cnn and everybody else i think you're going to see that played out all over again with the vaccine so of course you know we're going to have all kinds of adverse effects from the vaccine every vaccine has them um you've got this weird cultural battle over vaccination anyway that's been happening for some years now and i think it's it's on the precipice of this big it's going to kind of merge into these pre-defined ideological fault lines and it's i think it's going to be a [ __ ] show for a while around that hey so yeah yeah jen yeah i'm super curious about what you're thinking about this because i i i zone out and i forget about the political issues which of course are uh important in here and they're they're important levers of the person's overall cb all right that's good the um but what about um the vaccine and resistance to vaccine i think has a strong streak in the sort of uh government paranoid libertarian uh also bizarrely enough hyper health arena which is a different part of you know a very different group of people but the um the um but they that's not sort of a very well defined people you know it's kind of like i don't it's strangely enough i don't see like the uh the the left which might otherwise be somewhat paranoid about government you know things in civil liberties they they probably are are going to be preaching positive vaccine interestingly enough the the right which would i think normally be hey we we follow the rules and we do the rules and get your vaccine etc i don't think they're they tend to be anti-vaccine type of thing i don't know that they will be but i think i think you can have a diversified set of fringes that are going to be have their hackles up right yeah you've got this this sort of new coalition that and you'll see this happen in history these these sort of like political signs call them cross-cutting cleavages because political science has to make up all these ridiculous terms but these sort of like you know you've got people who would normally yeah you would you would silo them into particular political parties and predefined interests and then you have something come up that is a new social issue that draws people from across party lines and aligns them in essentially a new party or uh rallies around some sort of leader who's able to attract a you know a much bigger independent streak from the other party so there's really no predicting what could happen with that because yeah you've got a whole variety of weird coalitional members you've got the you know super religious you've got the health arena you've got the you know live free or die kind of gun coding you know libertarian types you've got you've got people who do not share a lot of other common social issues at all um who may may very well um rally around this so yeah it really kind of just depends who you know this is this is like we've been talking about another context it's um it's really a matter of uh what political figure or figures make the most hay with this and and manage to build a movement around it in some kind of effective way so you have people i've been watching people trying to do this since the beginning of covid trying to kind of mobilize across different political fault lines with fear you know get don't let the government chip you you know conspiracy theories seeping into the discussion all of this kind of stuff but i think if you i mean just in in theory if you had some sort of um you know a plausible candidate some sort of reasonable non-wingnut charismatic candidate who could make a case for the the dangers of the vaccine that that could be a really interesting presence in the political field going into the next couple of years so who knows all sorts of things could happen but certainly within you know the this the social media outrage machine yeah you're gonna have you're gonna have more of what we've seen around covid spotlighting which is oh you know this is this is too dangerous this is unacceptable this is a different kind of vaccine we don't understand this vaccine it was rushed to market we don't you know hear hear all the things that are suspicious about it here are all the cases of people who have terrible adverse effects that are going to affect them for a lifetime like yeah all sorts of shenanigans could come down with us so yeah stay tuned but i think it comes back to your what you're saying just about personal responsibility in your personal relationship to all of this it's it's really like it it's very easy for all of us to get caught up in you know why why don't other people see this like i do and yeah why is everybody so crazy and i i feel like i'm just going going insane with all the coveted contradictions and really your only business is you know how are you managing and mitigating your own risk um and how are you like are how are you existing in an equilibrium between your your personal freedom your personal enjoyment and some level of social responsibility that makes sense for you there was i was just talking recently somewhere else about this great piece in the new york times this week about the uselessness of pandemic shaming in general because you know somebody saying you're not being careful enough this is a continuum of behavior so i'm very responsible i'm very careful i'm very risk-averse but my behavior looks reckless if you go a little further down the continuum to somebody who's a lot more rigid than i am um and and and my behavior looks overly cautious to somebody on to the other side of me so and everybody is in this position ever you were you were somebody to to everybody in the world you were on either side of that divide so the shaming does nothing to change someone else's behavior it just causes you more stress um and more outrage that you can then go you know filter out on social media and make advertising dollars for corporations um but it's it's also uh it this is just built into the fact that again we live in this lovely democratic regime where we most of us get to do what we want i think people are confused this this sort of fear of of governmental tyranny people are conflating corporate costco policies with the government you know like yeah costco is not going to let you come in without a mask and they're going to kick you out if you don't have one on but that is not the government you know punishing you for not wearing a mask that is a that's a very different proposition that will go to the court and i i believe the court would not um would not tolerate that sort of infringement on civil liberties there's a big difference between the president or uh you know any uh the governor or anybody telling you you know asking you pleading with you to wear a mask and engage in these policies versus punishing you for not doing so um that that's a whole different political proposition and we haven't crossed that bridge and i don't i don't think it's likely to unfold that way so actually i don't know this gen but i think it has so i think that i think it is the law of california that you can't go into a commercial establishment without a mask and what happens if i mean has it been tested in the courts and been arrested uh i'm sure that that has not happened yet but the point is in many counties in southern california i actually said we're not going to be enforcing we're not going to enforce it that's the that's the difference like you can make the law it's an unconstitutional law but it's never going to go to review if nobody ever gets arrested right yeah right so so it's it this is basically a toothless sort of like yeah we're going to make it look as serious as we possibly can but there's no way we're actually sending you jail over it um so the county the county health is threatening to shut down businesses and because businesses are scared that they're going to come i mean you know of course this is national news but they yeah they had a couple of places where they actually came in and boarded up the place and wouldn't let the owners go into their own shop you know well that's something i mean that as sympathetic as i may be to that at some level it's it's that is a constitutional issue and it will go through the courts and i i don't think i mean we've we've already seen the the religious um you know the exception for practicing your religion we've seen like the the court is going to be um siding pretty firmly on the side of free expression and civil liberties so uh it does it's not going to stop governments particularly blue state governments from pushing it as far as they can but i think when it actually comes down to a test particularly a national legal test it's not going to go anywhere um i could be wrong but right i don't see how no i think you're right no i i think what yeah this makes perfect sense to me that right now because whoever's in charge can dictate terms right now and be pretty you know pretty aggressive but yeah as a what a lot of uh libertarians and and uh conservatives are concerned about is quote the future uh i am not concerned about it and and uh being a libertarian i'm looking at this and i'm i'm thinking that this is a toothless issue but right now you have this like emergency situation and an unusual swirl of political you know sensitivity about everything the uh but yeah i would agree i mean so i'm looking at this like yeah this bs and that that that won't stand uh uh after all the dust settles and this gets challenged up into the courts i don't think i don't think that it stands but uh but it'll be interesting it'll be interesting because the the the supreme court and the courts in general there you know that's the thing about the law is that the the law is a is a living process and as human beings confront one problem after the next of essentially the problems that they're confronting are problems of conflict of interest between individuals that's what civilization is civilization is a is a set of agreed upon rules that help us mitigate the fact that group living has benefits that we want to have but impose costs on us that we want to minimize and so that that so the the united states and now other people that have followed us are attempting to have a government which is actually optimizing life experiences of the people rather than the glory of the the son of god dictator that you have or king or whatever the hell it is so but that doesn't mean that they've got it all worked out they've got principles they've got ideas they've had they've had to learn through harsh bitter experiences and a lot of sort of course corrections it's kind of like a person getting wise as they get older when i was a a very young guy i believe it or not when i was a teenager i was selling real estate didn't last long but i did and um even though you could do it in person yeah yeah and what at the time i believe i believe my memory is correct about this um if it's not it's very close that the the documents for a like a transaction were like a page long and it might have been two pages at that point but my dad i think my dad might have showed me that five or six years earlier it had been one page and then it had gone over at around 1980 to about a page and a half so it's a second page on the association of real california association of realtors document for for a sale or a listing then i don't know 20 years later i'm buying a property or something i can't remember what it was and it's like 13 pages long and my dad actually was explaining to me says when you see these pages doug what you're looking at is you're looking at one nasty puzzle legally after the next so that as a state has gone to 20 million 30 million 40 million people and millions of real estate transactions there's been trouble and there's been trouble the existing documents weren't in specific enough and so now we've gone from a document that protected us against 90 of the trouble and then things came up then to 95 then to 96 then in 97 and 98 it's now that things are so long nobody can read them you just click the little button 27 times and says you read it sign it it's like you just gotta trust it okay and you actually can because there's been lawyers on both sides of that and case law that have bitterly fought out fought their way to reason to to minimize your exposure beyond anything that you would consider a reasonable thing so but that uh just as the common laws that led to you know commercial processes of of the last couple of centuries were formulated in dutch trading uh you know in the 14th and 1500s that it took a long time for those to to to evolve and the same thing is true of of uh of a problem like this like well what do you do if you have a pandemic and some people are really pissed off that if other people are walking around without a mask they're causing me a possible exposure oops new problem okay so uh so once again we're gonna watch the process go i don't i don't cower in libertarian fear and rage that that uh you know that that the courts are going to be tipped upside down and do this terrible thing against human freedom no i i look at it as a de detat as a detached with detached interests like okay this is an interesting problem of conflict between individuals in a society it's one that we haven't seen before and we haven't had to litigate it and so we'll find out and the the courts will the people that will be involved there will be layers of thought uh and layers of judges and then ultimately someday we may have a supreme court decision on what the supreme court thinks of that particular conflict of interest between individuals so right now um right now i know what i think the decision would be and should be but i i might you know enough supreme court's justices may be persuaded by some other line of arguments that are consistent with the underlying principle of optimizing human well-being under the general welfare that that may that may be where that goes who knows we'll just have to wait and find out wonderful dr hawk thank you for your analysis dr lyle thank you for analysis i i can't i can't uh can't help but wonder if this uh this new party dr hawk that you suggested might happen uh for the people who are not don't want to do vaccines i wonder if they're going to be called antiva ah that's very good well let's be clear i'm not suggesting a new party will he be the leader of antiva see this is the kind of crap that can happen i mean this is the sort of weird [ __ ] that goes down he might name it absolutely i mean in where we i mean even in you know well-consolidated democracies weird things can happen when you have emergent social issues and particularly when you have emergent social issues that coalesce in time and space around some bizarre charismatic figure like you can get short-term weird crap it can happen so um it's not out of the realm of possibility that that could be i mean people forget ross perot pulled 20 of the popular vote in the 1992 presidential election you know this like if if you remember what a crazy you know like on on its face just bizarre like who would want this guy to be president sort of proposition he managed to you know even even being out of the race his name was still on the ticket um yeah but he had dropped out of the race by the time of election day he still got 20 or nearly 20 um and that is just a that's a testament to the sort of the the whims of the electorate and the way that you know sort of in an ephemeral moment you you cannot predict what sort of interests are going to be captured by a particular kind of character i i think most of these things wash out over time like we've talked about in past weeks you know the system corrects for itself but that doesn't mean that you ha you don't have some sort of really bizarre short-term effect um where you have this moment of great irrationality in the electorate and some very strange results that could happen so yeah yeah all grand all right well dr hock thank you dr lyle our our next question just saying that they're miss dr lyle's rants about the coronavirus but i think he just goes well the question just had to they wanted to give you a rant of their own to try and provoke you basically you
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