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Episode 237: Desire to change others, sibling concerns, step-dad harsh with stepson
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uh if it is true that we can't change people why would evolution waste energy to engineer feelings in us that make us feel inclined to try to change others if we can't change others why do people come to believe that they can or enter relationships with others on that premise uh this is a really great question somebody somebody is paying attention to what we're saying and they're thinking carefully so i love the question the uh the the reason is that other people's behavior is modifiable under and even permanently under cost-benefit pressure so i use the example of you can have the not nastiest mafia chieftain who would just as soon slaughter anybody that that you know grins at him but you can turn that person into a puppy dog by putting a 45 loaded 45 right in the middle of his forehead okay you can you can make him talk you know like you know like he's kissing the ring of the pope so this is uh so in essence you you know that your actions and your consequences that you uh put on people can influence them that doesn't mean you change them permanently it means that you can mold their behavior as long as you put the pressure on them to what it is that you want so so it might it might feel to you uh very inconvenient that your your child is a flake with a messy room and so you want them you would in principle you'd want them to not be a flake and not to have a messy rum so uh now it is interesting that that people believe that somehow we can modify this person permanently now there's a reason why you might think so there's more than one reason one reason is is that in some ways you do modify people permanently and you become permanently modified when you get new information so the uh that's not a personality change all that ever changes personality doesn't change at all all that changes is the cost benefit analysis so let's suppose that lo and behold we'll take a very sort of a very unlikely example not not totally unlikely like my sister was a real slob when we were growing up she she had a totally messy room it was just total fiasco now interestingly enough when she grew up she became extremely orderly and she was an attorney and so she was meticulously orderly including in her own house and you might say well how is that even possible and the answer is the cost benefit changed so it would have been in her career it would have been basically impossible to to do the kind of work that she did with the conscientiousness that she had um to do a super good job if you were in chaos couldn't do it you might say well what happened you know where did this conscientiousness come from and where was it when she was growing up it was there my sister was a straight a student valedictorian of her high school okay so the conscientiousness was there she just didn't give a rat's ass about her room couldn't care less okay now uh didn't feel like it was enough of her place and her control and everything else into the sun so who knows what cbs were going on there we we lived in terror being nominated by my father to go out into the garage and help him clean out and organize the garage that's the thing that my sister and i to this day we laugh about it's like we had the same terror in my hand in my family that was like the worst the worst thing that could have happened my dad would couple times a year be like kids yes okay join me yes exactly yeah it's funny that we had the same thing because my dad my dad had this thing and if if the thing is is that our garage was small enough and so full of my dad's garage sale purchased crap that not not two kids couldn't fit in there only one could fit in so as a result it was like eeny meeny miny moe your number either came up for the lottery or your sister or brother did so it's the two of us and neither one of us bitched about it because we were both we're both on the same team against a common enemy and you know if you ha if your saturday happened to be the one that got sacrificed oh well you just got to go take it for the team there was no bitching that the other the other one got away with it so but i could imagine my sister's brain running a cb that basically said well if my room's in chaos dad's more worried about my chaotic room and he's yelling about that every now and then that's uh then it is you know uh in other words if it comes down to a saturday doug you come with me margie you clean your room okay so uh who knows what was going on in the depths of my sister's unconscious mind about what cb she was running but what we did see was we saw that it changed so you will see um so you can imagine that as a parent or is it a mentor or a teacher or anything else or a spouse you could see that if you could ex explain and show and get somebody to do something differently they might change permanently in that arena now it won't be because their personality changed it will be because their cost-benefit analysis of that particular narrow situation has changed and so so that that is true along with the fact that if we put actual pressure on people to change in other words we put consequences to their current behavior pattern uh under pressure i.e if you don't quit drinking i'm gonna leave you okay so it's like wow if you are valued enough as a mate that might be what causes somebody to put the bottle down okay so so this is why it is that people would have perfectly reasonable engineering that would be encouraging them to feel like they could quote change other people so the concept of changing other people is a muddy concept so and therein lies the answer to the mystery that sits underneath this question the um the fact that the personality structure is not changeable has not been known and wouldn't have been encoded as a concept in the genetic code okay so it's in there actually in some ways there are vestiges of that in other words you you if you don't quote like somebody and you get a feeling that you just don't like them that's not likely to change and even if they start acting somewhat differently towards you you may you may smell a rat and feel like no i know what your basic personality is and my feelings towards you actually aren't changing even though your behavior towards me is changing so uh so you certainly have the ability to sniff out the notion that you that an individual's human nature is quite stable uh what you also though understand is that you can influence another person's behavior pattern uh either in the short term under pressure or in the long term under effectively getting them to see the world differently than they currently see it and thereby changing their cb on their behavior pattern so that's why that's the the answer to uh what is actually an excellent question and i think that resolves the mystery wonderful yeah i would i would just throw it on there doug are you on speaker by any chance am i on speaker yeah your phone sounds a little distant i just want to make sure you're not on speaker that's all i am not a speaker okay perfect nevermind okay go ahead drock um yeah i would just throw in there that i think that that is all completely true but not only do we have this intuition that we we have changed our cost benefit under carrots or sticks in some form in various relationships that we've had and that that is look like behavioral and personality change um and that we've seen other people do it so we have this sort of life experience and intuitive feeling that that's possible but let's not forget that there's also an entire self-help self-transformation military-industrial complex that sort of doubles down on this idea and that you have everywhere you turn people with doctor in front of their name or phd after their name in positions of authority telling you that this is not only possible but that it's the way to improve your relationships it's the way to um to change the whole outcome of of the dynamic between the two of you so it's not like you're just coming to this conclusion and acting on it on your own accord you're getting supported and reinforced in that direction by every self-help book every magazine article every episode of oprah and dr phil and just everything you could possibly uh source sorry about all of the my computer blowing up in the background i thought it was me no it's not good yeah you know that's great jen client yeah yeah i had uh i i had barely caught that but of course there there's actually been you know a profound education for a hundred years uh a bit basically behind both freudian and and uh early learning theory that has now permeated all social science in the 20th century and then as jen points out it's actually weaved its way into the business of human relationships and advice so god yeah i've completely forgot about that excellent yeah all good uh um are there others uh would you say there's certain personality characteristics that that will will uh cause people to try to change others more than others like uh the thing i can think of as a more disagreeable person yeah disagreeable it's there's just more of a tendency to think that you know the right way to do things and if only everybody would just do it the way that you do it then everything would just be fine that's like that's just implicit in the disagreeable world view so i would think that that would be the number one and then super conscientious people suffer under this distortion where it's like they they cannot understand right why and how the rest of the world is not the same 99th percentile level of conscientiousness that they are yeah and how about intelligence um i think i think that contains its own ability to discern that it's not possible [Laughter] if you've if you've got very high iq you're not trying to drag other people along with you most of the time i would i would say i don't know doug what do you what would you say about that um we i think it you know this all this we're now starting to parse this down through personality and i think we i think we already have the broad strokes the way the way i look at the way i look at psychology with personality being a part of it is sort of the earth and the moon that psychology all of the neural circuits that make up what a human is that's like the earth it's it's massively bigger than the moon but you can't understand life on earth unless you understand the moon and its influence and that that's what personality is so the individual differences variables are there but in answer the question the big issue is that the big issue is is that you do know that other people's behavior is modifiable you do know that you can have an influence you don't understand the nature of that influence you weren't designed to you're just designed to know that you can influence them and so that that's why it is that despite the fact that you cannot change their personalities you would still have a motive that would be driving driving a cb on putting that energy in because in fact their behavior is modifiable under pressure so that then we can parse then we can jump from the earth to the moon and we can say well why are some people more susceptible to that to having that cb trigger and i think jen's point is is immediately correct which is that the disagreeable people are going to be far more likely to be putting pressure on other people than anybody else uh then you're gonna throw in some conscientiousness and then we can start talking about everything else but but now we're talking about the smaller pieces biggest piece of the puzzle is um is that there's a cb behind it and that cb is legitimate wonderful yeah it's a really good framework for people just at the level of principle because so often we have you know people who get they they get into the idea of the big five and they really want to understand themselves but they get a little deterministic about it so they get a little like oh i'm you know i took a quiz that says i'm i'm 78th percentile conscientiousness and therefore that's going to create these sorts of specific problems for me and um and they they they try they make these law like inferences based on their personality and how it's going to impact something like this when really they should be oriented toward the the earth like rules government system that you're talking about and looking at personality as a filter on it that is really dynamic that is subject to all kinds of contingencies and interactional effects with other personality characteristics and other uh you know what we would call skittles or information distortions or just so many different things um so really you your personality is not this it's it's stable in some sense but it's not it's not a stable variable that you can use to prescribe these kinds of things in the way that people sometimes want to yeah very good very good great wonderful all right what else we got next question dear doctors my question is regarding my older brother he's always been very private about his relationship with his significant other to the point that it makes our family uncomfortable she is his first relationship and she's the one who heavily pursued him they've been together on and off for three years she was a foreign exchange student when they met failed to meet her requirements for work visa this spring and so my brother finally told us that they got married this past may to keep her in the states he did not seek anyone's input he knows we've all been uncomfortable with her this whole time and now he's waited three months to tell us that he got married he's not religious in any way he's atheist actually and also stated before that he does not really believe in the institution of marriage he also expressed as recently as one year ago he's not even sure if he likes her but he does enjoy her attention and having her as company i guess my question here is twofold is it worth expressing concern to him about this action at this point being that it's done and has been for done for three months it was a particularly hard blow to my parents who are practicing catholics and i don't see how he could fail to see the hurt it could cause them second from a gene standpoint why did he do this i know it all comes down to cost-benefit analysis but i guess i'm just struggling with the fact that he really seemed to think it was more beneficial to secretly snap decision get married without thinking of the long-term consequences of his actions i know it sounds like a mess trust me it feels like one to me too i'm just in complete disbelief and i'd appreciate any insight on this one yeah this is a nice messy family thing this is a gen nice messy family thing it's me with my my sort of general um the the same kind of framework and approach that i bring to all of these kinds of questions like the details of any of these we get a lot of questions that are sort of i would lump in the same kind of category like i have an adult family member who is doing something i don't like and this adult family members making decisions that i don't understand and i don't approve of um and uh it's it's a you know having this effect on us and upsetting us i mean there are all kinds of tells in this question you're you're simultaneously expressing confusion that your brother decided to do this in secret without without clueing the family into the process but you're also letting me know in the question that you have been signaling your disapproval for it as a family the whole time so there's really no surprise that your brother would choose to you know take this into you know offline and not involve the family in the decision process he's running his cost benefit analysis you are not privy to all of the components of that cost benefit analysis you don't know what his real motivation is you don't know why he's doing this there there certainly he um you know the assumption that he's failing to see the hurt that it causes your parents i i doubt that that's true i i'm sure that that is part of the cb but you don't know what kinds of pressures are being exerted in other parts of of that cost benefit analysis to make that more compelling for him to take that action into and to give his wife this status through marriage so you you don't know all the components he may not even be consciously aware of all of the reasons that he's doing what he's doing but the fact remains that he is an adult who is sovereign unto himself and able to make these decisions whether or not you're happy about them so i always go back in this kind of situation to um in my in my woo-woo days there is a there's a very well known probably many listeners have encountered this particular guru her name is byron katie and she's she's really kind of a glorified cbt type who wraps her cbt thinking and a lot of woo-woo language but she does have this very useful uh thing that she does where she'll listen to somebody you know come come to one of her seminars and give this kind of question about some some family usually it's an adult child or a parent or an adult family member who's doing something upsetting and she'll just kind of sit back and she gets this kind of this this particular look on her face and she's like whose business are you in are you in your business are you in somebody else's business and it's like this decision rule it's are you who whose life are you worrying about and are these things that belong to you to worry about or not and in this case it's not affecting you directly it's just something that you're sort of opposed to in principle and that you wouldn't have made you were perceiving that you wouldn't have made the same decisions under the same conditions um and we also don't know that that's true by the way but you're that's where this discontent is coming from so my advice to you is just generally to you know let your brother run his own show get in touch with the fact that this is not negatively impacting your life and your existence in any kind of meaningful way that perhaps your parents are upset about it but that's between your brother and your parents and you you again are sort of tangential to that process and um and just yeah stand back let him live it's probably going to run its course it probably won't last forever and you're never going to fully understand all of the different things that are going on here perfect i just can't i have nothing i mean i would say i i when i listened to this uh jen jen went uh more broadly on this uh my uh you are there's different ways of looking so she says listen you don't know the cb what's going on and my i start scrolling through the cb first relationship for this guy okay i i like her attention well what intention is that okay what do we mean all right the uh and second of all the also if it was his first relationship that was sort of telling me that it's not that easy for him to get relationships and so and to have a relationship and be to be married that sort of gives you real world credibility so when you go past this relationship it's like well yeah i was married it's like oh so that you're you're you're not a you're not a a wallflower that never had a girlfriend before is that right the answer is yeah now i've actually was a married guy a couple of you three years ago married some girl from russia or whatever it was well that's a way better story so again as as just exactly as jen was saying we have no idea what cb is going on inside that head and our job is to let him run his own show absolutely yeah i always assume when i see a question like that with the you know that you don't know the cb she could have blackmail on him it could be some weird sex thing it could be like he could have you know run into some trouble in business with her father and he like you know he's being coerced into it i mean there there's an infinite number of weird things that could be going on here and he is not necessarily going to be upfront about all those weird things so just stand back and let people live their lives quite an imagination there well you and you and i need to meet more my my imagination was already pretty good with my openness but then you know you know as well as i do in this job you talk to a lot of people you realize there's a lot of a lot of crazy stuff going on out in the world sure you gain an appreciation for um the situations that people are facing and the ways that they're trying to resolve them and doing their best the whole time but you know it's it's a big world with a lot of different types of relationships and a lot of a lot of stuff going on you got it is there anything you'd recommend for this particular listener to do to calm down those feelings uh that she you know she feels obviously you know she's in disbelief she feels like i guess she doesn't have as much status with this brother that she thought she did um all those types of feelings you can think of is there anything she can do other than just kind of ignore him essentially and just cut him out i'd say that's a good question nathan i think the um i think that the issue is the first conceptual thing to understand is that he he is running a brilliant cb you just don't know what it is but his his brain is running such complicated cost-benefit analysis he doesn't even know all the factors that are going into it so therefore what we want to be is respectful of somebody else's process so this isn't causing him to get cancer it's not causing him to be bankrupt it's not causing him to get get thrown in jail there's nothing illegal you know terrible humiliating for the family or anything else the parents may not like it because this would be theoretical catholic boy was supposed to marry i don't know some catholic girl and supposed to have kids with her oh well too bad that that's that's that is of no consequence your your your situation needs to be that what is your objective your objectives need needs to be or ought to be uh essentially uh in in relationship to your brother it should be what is serving his happiness that's that's what we need to be thinking about and so uh and that means we're not trying to forcibly interfere in anybody's life so it wouldn't be like well what about my parents happiness what if we force him to annul the marriage and then marry a catholic girl no that's not optimizing uh life experience of anybody involved here that's the parents worried about their pseudo esteem with the village you know forget it the uh no what we want to do is we want to have a philosophy that you know if you care about a person what we want is we want their experience you know to to be as good as it can be without im impacting ours or cost costing us a great deal so it costs us nothing uh to have the realization that he's going through his own process he's making his own moves and all we want to be is signaling that we love the gay we love the guy that's all that's all you need to do and if you do that and realize that this is not cancer this is not jail uh therefore this is part of the life process for him and that's all it is and you just let it let it unfold we have no idea uh there's a great quote somebody somebody could find it for me i don't have a copy of how i found freedom in an unfree world in my hands right now let's see if i can see if i can find it i've got it you do i've got it right on my shelf here yeah there's a quote jen if you can find it uh you may be able to i don't know that that book is indexed i think it is but if we look up herbert spencer okay herbert spencer was one of the great systematic thinkers of the 19th century uh he's actually the man who coined the phrase survival of the fittest and he actually coined it before darwin wrote the origin of species by the way so i believe it was it was after darwin that it became famous with respect to darwinian thought but spencer was a great systematizer of thought and he has a quote somewhere on how i found freedom unfree world about his it's at the end of a chapter it's in one of those little footnotes it might be chapter three or four or five or yeah no no it's one about about being uh when he sees that you know his investment decisions that he told a friend about that the front went bankrupt and that that his son you know that he worked so hard to be what's that what's that i've got two quotes there's one about the about um shielding men from the effects of folly that's the other one yeah it's about about it does it say that they're about us his son you know turned out worse than most now there's another quote i'm looking at the end right yeah there's one more these they're both great there's volumes might be written upon the impiety of the pious no that's that's sweet then there's then there's the ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools no there's one more and the other and even though those are really good there's a third one and see if you can find it quickly but it it basically says um when i look back at my life and i look at all the things that i earnestly sought and all of the p here you got it please read it for people yeah the uh the index was incorrect it told me it was page 107 but it's actually page 108 so when i remember how many of my private schemes have miscarried how speculations have failed agents proved dishonest marriage been a disappointment how i did but pauperize the relative i sought to help how my carefully governed son has turned out worse than most children how the thing i desperately strove against as a misfortune did me immense good how while the objects i ardently pursued brought me little happiness when gained most of my pleasures have come from unexpected sources when i recall these and hosts of like facts i am struck with the incompetence of my intellect to prescribe for society oh that's awesome it's awesome and that that should be emblazoned yes um yeah really people need to take that to heart yeah and that that's where we have to have this notion of you know let the reins go and let let the people that we love find their own way be supportive but realize that they they have to you know they have to walk in their own moccasins and our job is to to let them know that we care well that's so important too just like that's we really don't want to let this question go without making that point that even if he is completely misguided yes like he's not optimizing his happiness and this is a huge mistake and and he will you know get get through this process and even need your help extracting himself from it at some point which is possible you know people people get themselves into that situation you you want to be in that position as his sibling of just signaling unconditional support as as much as you can for that time when he may come to you and feel safe coming to you rather than where where i think he's been vis-a-vis the family which is knowing that you disapprove and therefore being incentivized to hide things from you and to not include you in his decision-making so so to the extent that you can be supportive of his process and his happiness just you know being being there in that non-judgmental supportive position is going to be the best thing to do beautiful got it all right all right all right our next question um another young man here i have a 15 year old son who did poorly in school after it moved online last spring eventually he stopped doing any of his work and lied to my husband and i about it he's now returning to hybrid model in a couple of weeks and i'm already dreading the acrimony that will follow my husband is our son's stepfather with no biological children of his own in the past there has been conflict between my husband and i about how to handle this i think my husband is draconian and he thinks i'm too relaxed how much freedom is appropriate to give kids when it comes to schoolwork what about lying is there any way to protect my relationships with both my husband and my son through this and finally why do some step parents like my husband get so invested in kids that will not be carrying their genes forward that one back to doug yeah we could just sort of uh we we could re re uh run everything that just jen said in the previous one the um okay this is a tricky place that uh this woman finds herself in so let's talk uh through this from different angles because she's got more than one agenda so she's got a relationship with her husband the relationship has her relationship with both her and her child and then the child has a relationship uh with her and with her with with the child's stepfather so in other words there's a whole bunch of relationships and a whole bunch of agendas so let's begin with uh where i think the the root pressure is so i think the root pressure comes from uh the the stepfather being you know highly conscientious uh uh varying degrees of disagreeable uh and so therefore uh this is uh for for we're not exactly sure what the reasons are inside his head but i i could read the tea leaves uh and sort of guess that possibly part of it comes from wanting this flake the young 15 year old flake to uh to actually get his act together get busy get good grades get on a path where he's going to be financially self-sufficient so i don't have to be supporting him in his young adulthood so i could absolutely see that i could be of course i could be wrong about this but it's going to turn out that the the scientific evidence would suggest this pretty strongly that the reason why most stepfathers are supportive of step children is because of the sexual importance of the mother to them okay so that's so this it isn't because they're so crazy about the step children and their success independently so that is the genetic reason uh why it is that this that this pathway would go in terms of stepfatherhood attention to uh stepchild success now so i can see that the kids flakiness would be irritating as all get out uh because that would be basically like whoa that means that 18 19 20 21 22 27 28 32 i'm gonna be supporting you because you're a flake so we gotta like get you whipped into shape now because it's finally getting serious and i should be almost at the end of my provisioning and you're frustrating the daylights out of me because you're not doing anything so i could see that as background music to the quote draconian frustration of the stepfather i.e the husband now i could be wrong it could be just sheer flat out achievement natural achievement motivation and high conscientiousness on his part that is quite independent of the concerns about the provisioning extensive extended provisioning issue now the uh so that so that we're that's where the pressure is coming so mom is quote not as upset about the kids flakiness uh however we're not completely uh happy about the fact that the kid is is flaking out he's lying of course why because there's conflict of interest between him and his parents particularly his stepfather and therefore he's just going to kick the can down the road tell you he did things that he didn't do that he doesn't want to do and has no intention of doing perfectly understandable uh now so where would i come in on this i would come in on this um as totally relaxed about this child's uh performance in school what do we care this is this kid's life this kid will not sink or swim his life for what he does in the next two or three years he's clearly not motivated he's seeing that the cb from his standpoint about whether or not he does well in school or not or even passes doesn't seem to matter to him so why should we care uh it the this is all go boils down to the famous why mom care speech which is that why should we be panicked about his sexual success let him worry about it uh he he he'll take care of himself he'll figure it out all we have to do is give him 20 in a suitcase on his 18th birthday and suddenly he'll become incredibly responsible okay so i i don't really when we really boil down and try to figure out where all this anxiety is coming from it's just coming from the fact that that you know everybody wants him to do more than he wants to do for himself right now and why should we care now the um we care she might care because of the constraint of mating choice in the stone age that the difference between two options if she if he loses one of the two in the stone age there could be a significant difference between the eight he could have gotten and the five that he's gonna get because there's only four four young ladies available but that's not true in the modern environment so the modern environment he's going to get his due he's not going to take some 30th percentile hit because there weren't enough options and he was too flaky to beat out his competitor so that's why we don't have to worry about that situation now so my attitude would be i would have the bar very very low for this young man it should be at pass so the attitude should be listen you either pass your classes and you pass the semester or if you don't pass that's that's fine i don't care if you pass or not but you will lose your cell phone and you will lose your computer there'll be no access to the internet there'll be no access to your cell phone you for the next six months so i i don't really care if you pass or not i just know that if you don't pass that's what's going to happen to you oh my god he'll die without a cell phone how will we know when he's in a ditch on the side of the road with you know his 18 drunk buddies and somebody's playing got a loaded revolver that they stole from their uncle and they're playing russian roulette really was that happening on all the days before we had cell phones no okay so therefore i don't give a rat's ass if that kid has a cell phone or not it is not important for his safety so he does not uh he's just not going to have a car no car absolutely not so he's not going to have a car he's not going to have a cell phone he's not going to have a computer hey hey i hope you like cable television because that's what you're going to be watching if you don't pass your classes now if you pass what's that old reruns of matlock yeah exactly the evolution of andy griffith yeah whatever so the point is is that the bar should be the lowest possible bar i.e how i found free of an unfree world let this young man you know do whatever it is that he wants to do with some realistic constraints on it now the uh i would also tell the husband that it might be wise to listen to this answer or have him book a session with jen or myself preferably jen [Laughter] the um but the so the notion is is that no i i have understandable you know i have empathy for this situation i have empathy for the irritable conscientiousness of the husband who's providing for stepchildren and this stepchild who does not have apparently the conscientious genes of the stepfather and so therefore i understand that there's dynamics there that are uncomfortable and that person may need to essentially process their their fears and their anxieties and their frustrations and how it is that they all feel like this is unfair and when they realize that actually if you're cohabiting this space uh the real notion is hey the me you don't get to play the music loud so that it bothers me you don't have you don't get to mess up the kitchen uh without consequence and leave your crap all over the place and make my life uncomfortable without consequences okay and you don't get to flunk out of school and without consequences but i'm not going to cross examine you about your homework i'm not going to ask one thing about it because you're running your own show and i hope to be there for your graduation and i hope that works out and if it doesn't work out it doesn't matter because when you're 18 it's 20 in a suitcase if that's what you've deserved okay and if you've worked hard and we're wealthy and you want to go to swarthmore and study you know eastern european art because you deserved it and you got in with excellent grades and you were you know excellent in your high school and worked hard on your sats and i can afford it then i'll put you at swarthmore and you can waste another 200 000 of my money fine okay but the bottom line is is that it's all about consequences and it's all about letting this kid run their own show and that's how we do this so the these are these are conflicts that don't need to be there uh and we're not going to modify this child's personality we can modify their behavior and we're going to do that with very reasonable consequences for that child to compute the cb you
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