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Episode 234: Covid update, psychology of war, why high expectations
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one thing i've had some people write to me a few times about uh about how you know what happened to our coveted discussions and i think what happened to to us was we sort of got adrift and away from it after after we saw the pattern and and and became increasingly less interested until until the picture got clearer the uh i think the picture is quite a bit clearer now i think it's going to get a lot clearer here in the next few weeks but i'm seeing an interesting thing that it's the mirror image of something that happened early early in last march as covid was headed our way i had a couple of uh two or three as i recall conversations with some bright people that said uh they had heard me talk and said that um that they didn't really see how on earth that we were gonna wind up uh with the 40 000 or 50 000 or 60 000 deaths that i thought we were going to see in april and i said oh yes it is it's coming and it's going to happen and and so they they just they weren't it was such a change from where it is that we were at that point that they couldn't quite fathom it and uh even though i i have a friend of mine he was like kind of pleading with me like no really i mean you really you really think that's going to happen it's like yes it's absolutely going to happen it's a certainty we just don't know what it's going to look like exactly but trust me there's going to be tens of thousands of fatalities in april and there were and similarly i'm seeing the mirror image of that now and uh the mirror images is that this thing is just going to go on forever and we have to keep locking down we have some intelligent people saying this uh god knows i think bill gates is is chirping up this way and the head of the fed in saint louis or some political place is saying similar it's extraordinary to me that this is what we're hearing because um uh and not just not to say that i'm smarter than than these people because i don't think i am i just i'm a little it's a little bizarre that that's their perspective and let me explain why the uh the truth of the matter is we now have a fairly decent handle on the the mathematics of this first round of covid which by all accounts should be the worst that we'll ever see it and the all we have to do is we have to look at a place we had a beautiful experiment that took place in spite of a lot of people's consternation and objections a beautiful experiment was taken place took place in sweden where we had one tough old swede that basically said we're going to do it this way we're going to keep it open and we're going to let this thing go through with reasonable intelligence on the part of the population without walking down without worrying about mass or anything else and what took place was they had uh they've had about 5700 fatalities out of their 10 million people uh and as a result of that they're done if you look at the swedish curve it's over in sweden and um uh what they did effectively was they took the band-aid off quickly now other places that have locked down uh as we as jen jen has a phrase for this i guess it comes out of political science it's called mission creep so what happened is we got mission creep in the united states where it went from let's lock down to flatten the curve so we don't overwhelm our health system all the way to we have to lock down to try to stop the virus from spreading and maybe delay it all until sometime we get a vaccine that is incredible mission creep but that's exactly what happened it happened all over the political spectrum this wasn't a this wasn't a singular uh singular uh dimension it's not a republican or democrat issue it's a very uh although there's certainly differences there uh from different perspectives there across the board but the basic thing that happened wish mission creep and what we've now see is when you take out your pocket calculator and you say okay well if you've got 5700 deaths per 10 million and you you take a look at italy and italy has about 60 million people or so and you multiply uh 5700 deaths that that happened free form in sweden and then you multiply that times the 65 million people in italy you get about 35 000 which is exactly how many people died in italy before it all stopped okay then you do the same thing in spain which is a smaller country a little bit smaller than italy and they've got fewer fatalities i can't remember what they wound up with 25 000 or so i.e the same ratio then you go to great britain and they're a little worse but it's in the same easily within the same order of magnitude in other words it's it's within a one to one point five uh multiplication ratio of this in other words everywhere you look this is what you're going to see the uh the pl so what the what the virus does is it uh because it's a novel virus and we we don't have an existing immune to it or at least a lot of people don't so it it races its way through the population it takes its pound of flesh and you you can try to slow it down but it's going to get there in all probability uh places that have have done a masterful job of sequestering themselves at great expense a place like iceland we would have anticipated at this rate that iceland would have had let me see with 350 000 people um i think we would have expected somewhere in the neighborhood of 180 fatalities more or less and they have 10 and that's because they literally were able to lock down an island the um so at great expense they did this however they're not done uh so there they sit uh defending that that strategy at great expense hopefully hoping that there will be either better treatments in the long run or or a vaccine that could help etc but essentially they have a debt to corona on the order of 150 or so fatalities now the united states if we take out our pocket calculator for all of the hand wringing and consternation and masks and locking down and shutting the restaurants and shutting the schools and everything else into the sun where are we today well take out your pocket calculator and multiply 5700 deaths uh per 10 10 million multiply that by 32.5 because there's 325 million people in the united states and lo and behold you're going to wind up somewhere in the neighborhood of 175 fatalities and guess what that's almost where we are so the uh i i heard a a news report i think niles ferguson or whoever this guy was that started the the whole alarm at imperial college in in london saying that by locking down britain had saved half a million lives this is total bs people total bs if that were true great britain uh great britain which then if that were true then sweden that did not lock down and at 5700 fatalities out of 10 million which is about one-sixth the size of great britain if you do that multiplication you would expect about 35 000 deaths in great britain they have over 45 000 so where the hell is the net benefit and the answer is it's not to be found that's a lie and that's a that's a total political commentary uh to a completely confused populace from a big time uh a scholar who's truly has egg all over his face and is now going to defend an extraordinarily expensive experiment uh in trying to con control an epidemic that did that failed okay so the bottom line is is that that my personal sort of interest in this is watching people now including those same intelligent people that i was talking to four months ago telling them that this is inevitable that you're going to have this crisis and now they're not thinking it's going to end and it's like well now that's really interesting what exactly are you thinking are you thinking that you're going to see another 175 000 fatalities in the next four months in the united states that doesn't make any sense at all that would make the united states situation entirely different than what you saw in sweden in england in spain in france and in italy in other words it would be utterly inconsistent with this so the answer folks is we're about done okay and strangely enough you have people sort of not grasping this and the news media not reporting that this is obviously where this is headed and um and obviously we had a second wave of sorts here in the south southern united states because the united states is a much larger land mass than than an individual country in europe and so in the same way that it had to march its way through different places in europe at different times it had to march its way through the united states in different places at different times and it's now about done so unless the united states has an extraordinarily more uh vulnerable population which it does not then sweden for example in other words our our age of our population is about the same as sweden's and we eat similarly rich crap with sweden and we probably have similar obesity to sweden and we probably have similar smoking rates to sweden so we were not really going to expect that that the united states fatality ratios are going to be significantly different than sweden's so we should be expecting somewhere in the neighborhood of 175 000 to 200 000 deaths at this point now that we have the the data in and that's what it's going to be so relax everybody chill out we're down to the last 60 days of the coronavirus being a substantial public health threat in the united states at least for the time being and so hey i'm i'm looking forward as i watch the numbers quietly start to fall on the final part of the curve to life getting normal now the fact that people are not anticipating this well at all uh is kind of we're seeing human nature uh once again once it gets used to something it can't imagine that there's gonna be a change and so the uh there's gonna be a significant change it's uh november and december aren't going to look anything like july and august and so but it may take a while for this to get absorbed and so i actually think that come about the first of the year [Applause] all the little penguins are going to start to jump in the water when it when they find out that the water's safe so i think that your country nathan and everybody is going to look an awful lot like the country that we had last february come this coming february so i think they'll obviously be some uh some tenacious hold on on some changes as a result of the hyper conscientiousness of of a lot of individuals but essentially the america that you know and the marketplace that you know is will return in full force rather soon wonderful well that certainly certainly relaxes me i know that i've been looking at the cdc's provisional death counts and that seems to support exactly what you're saying they have a big graph that goes all the way up and then it's coming down and we're basically at the very tail end of it right uh and so so it's um i'm gonna post that to the be your genes fans of the beat your jeans uh facebook group for those of people who are interested yeah um but uh appreciate it dr lyle this is good it's all it's always it's always nice to hear a voice of reason in such a chaotic yeah yeah data driven sure to be fair this was you know two or three times as bad as i thought it was going to be uh actually a a very thoughtful commentary from a from a doctor in sweden uh basically says that uh that he believes uh that that he he's thinking from what he can tell that in order to get hurt immunity you probably have to have about half the people infected so he believes that probably about half of sweden was infected about five million cases and uh and then if you take those five million cases and you put fifty seven hundred fatalities over it you're you're more or less boiling down to an infection uh fatality ratio 0.12 which is down in the flu flu-like numbers so uh people might back up and horrified because that's uh that's language we're not supposed to use to call this flu-like numbers but it looks like they are so the fact that we had a obviously much worse than a normal flu season normal flu season um in the united states might take 50 or 60 000 fatalities and this one's going to take maybe three times that but that's because it's the first time through okay so the first time through by the time it washes through the population and you get effective a substantial amount of hurt immunity next year you're you're probably talking about 100 million to 150 million infections have taken place in the united states they've actually tested and counted millions but uh but but we know that far more than that have escaped our notice obviously because in the time when it was raging through the system we had almost no testing at all so if we've actually tested five or six million people positive we know just as this swedish doc is explaining that as it works its way through the population to the point where basically nobody's getting infected and nobody's dying at the end of the end of the curve that means it didn't just go away and hide with a little time clock on it it started banging into immunity all over the place as it tried to jump from person to person and it found a brick wall that's how these things work so the so therefore we begin or we don't really begin because this thing doesn't look like it has a season like the flu because it's not the flow but the point is is that uh there's nothing magical coming at us in november december january february uh that is like the flu that this thing is going to rain on top of us instead what we're seeing is that it it worked its way through the population it will probably continue percolating in other words it probably won't be eliminated it will probably percolate slowly and become a minor uh health threat you know in the united states you know depending upon for example how long the immunity lasts in an individual it could be that immunity doesn't last forever so you may get a slight infection and not know it which is the vast majority of cases are apparently essentially asymptomatic and therefore you may carry some immunity for what a year or two but that means that the coronavirus that we know may perk along around and take as the flu does you know ten thousand twenty thousand thirty thousand or even forty thousand or fifty thousand deaths a year mostly from the elderly and sick just like the flu does so i think that this is a very flu-like process and flu-like deadliness except that in this particular case we had a population a world population that had no immunity to it so the first year is the year that you get hit really hard and the next year is a very different story so i think that the uh the gloom and doom that we have a new world order then everybody's going to wear masks and sit behind their tv screen and never congregate anywhere and never go to a ball game i think is just absolutely ludicrous and i think the absurdity of that projection will become blatantly obvious in eight weeks so i look forward to watching the end of this catastrophe in the next two months as we see the final curves of the final outposts of the united states vulnerability uh fade into the into the background wow thank you dr lao so the case fair the infection fatality rate seems to be what anywhere from point one five point point one five or so all the way could potentially be 0.4 i think is the measurement i read in the cdc yeah i don't think that's true in other words i think the cdc is vastly underestimating the how widespread the infection is and the reason why i believe so nathan is because for example in a place like sweden where it has been allowed to go through the population it has not been stopped okay it stopped itself so there'd be no reason for this to stop itself until you have heard immunity and so uh so clearly it wound up so in order to get hurt immunity we had to get uh the the reproduction ratios on these things you have to get half the population exposed to get hurt immunity so as a result that means that they had 5 million infections in sweden they've had 5 700 deaths that's looking more that those estimations start looking like 0.12 so i think the cdc's estimations are uh uh i think we're back to john ionitis i think he had it right all along [Music] so uh it's just that the first year obviously you know blows blows your hair back is what happened so but i think the uh i think the wild ride is about over well thank you yeah i mean so point one two percent whereas dr lau you know you've had a two two episode out of 234 episode failure rate yeah you have a 0.85 percent so you're actually you've got a worse failure rate at recording than kovit has all right fair enough all right let's let's go on to something new okay our next question uh dear doctors there's question about war i'm fascinated about how humans can band together in tribes and kill each other they also will battle each other while having hospitals right there to treat the wounded i can understand fighting over resources but these days it seems to be more over ideologies than that do you have any evolutionary insight into this couldn't this potentially be detrimental to gene and species survival yes uh there's a lot of insight on this and so let's let's backtrack to the well first of all um don't be so sure that people are going to war over ideology so uh everywhere that you you turn they were after resources so the middle east has been an incredible hot bed because there's a bunch of oil over there so tensions are very high and and and uh greedy leadership in different places is always looking looking over at the next guy to see what they can take okay uh the the huge conflict in the middle east right now has to do with with uh well certainly one of the great conflicts has to do with israel and the gaza strip and they took our land and et cetera et cetera so this is uh those are resources and so the the ideology is likely to be uh probably serve a couple of functions it's a it's a justification function to uh uh enrage a group of males so that they will go to war uh however they're at the other end of it there isn't just ideology ideological victory there is resources uh that are also associated with this now the the the fact that you could trip a couple of levers uh and get a war produced out of seemingly you you might not be able to detect the original resource problem the original resource problem typically in a hunter-gatherer tribal warfare was somebody's theoretical stolen pig okay so some pig got loose somebody else got it they slaughtered it and they ate it and then it turned out it was my pig not your pig and now we have a fist fight over it and now that that now that uh i lost the fist fight and i'm pissed off uh in fact it might have been worse than a fist fight maybe you killed me now my brother is going to come kill you okay so now in other words an original resource dispute uh fuels a cycle of violence uh that then you may not remember what the original resource dispute was about because it actually then became about status uh and status is a very significant uh resource also uh the the but the original adaptation was was basically to get women so this is uh been beautifully outlined by to be in cosmetics the are the resident geniuses of the world of psychology and they they worked this out quite a long time ago so uh people that have heard my talk uh getting along without going along in that talk i talk about how that that you know it's all about the eggs that that what the women are the cause of all war okay and uh and they they are okay and so they don't want to be women have no warfare chip they don't have any warfare adaptation uh warfare is strictly an adaptation in men and it's a it's uh it's about uh women and there are certain conditions under which this uh could have evolved and in fact did evolve so in our species as well as in chimpanzees uh there are there are obviously other species that will go to war uh but but humans humans and chimps are the only big ones that we know of the other ones are things like ants and bees and wasps and stuff like that so uh but in uh the war adaptation side of humans evolved uh in order to statistically increase reproductive success and so that meant that there were a certain set of conditions that made it likely for the warfare instinct effectively to be activated uh that would have been uh that they would have had to have situations where they're what chibi and cosmetics call a veil of ignorance about who's gonna die so if there's ten guys going to war against another bunch another guy's eight guys on the other side of the river and incidentally one of the conditions is the belief that we will win and a huge part of that has to do with whether or not we think we've got bigger numbers than they do or if we don't have bigger numbers we are sufficiently um more talented we're bigger and stronger we're younger we may have a device that they don't have we've got a plan that they don't that they won't see coming and they've got some very good looking women over there that we want to get to and we can't manage to trade for them so that uh but you have to have an ignorance as you go into the into the warfare that number one that you don't know who's gonna die if anybody so you certainly don't know that you're gonna die and second of all you have to believe that you're going to be victorious and so it should be there should be instincts for defection and desertion if things start going bad which of course there would be this is well known in the military the and it should also be the case that people in the group should be paying attention to who takes the risks and the rewards should be essentially honored and meted out relative to the risks not just the risks but also the contributions uh that that people made during the fight these are all part of a cohesive system an adaptive system for what clearly evolved in humans where men banding together in in war-like bands would have been more successful at reproducing those g their genes than men who did not and so the men who did that and had that as a proclivity for their psychology out reproduced the men that that you know the proto-humans that did not develop that tendency as as significantly so we have we are we are instinctually war uh we're an instinctually war warlike species uh that those instincts are almost exclusively activated in men um the uh so it's a little strange even now it makes sense for women to be quote serving in the military in certain capacities but the the rage of battle and the desire to uh kill the other guy uh this is this is going to make more sense to the psychology of a male and and they're they're looking and angling to get reproductively relevant resources to this day uh they want fancy stripes on them they want medals of honor this is all to grandstand to females uh in order to increase your likelihood of mating success you know this is the the great pride the beautiful uniforms this is all done to essentially trade out the increase a young man's likelihood of mating success early in life as they as they battle the cost benefit against losing the whole goddamn thing okay so that's the same cost benefit complicated cost benefit that nature had to run through unteen generations of proto-humans as they essentially slowly evolved the cohesive band probably complete with an earlier part of our the question which was about quote ideology well don't think that something that adds to the war-like cohesiveness of a of a group of men is the fact that our ideology uh is better than your ideology and you're in fact kind of shitty people and therefore you deserve to be killed okay so that you know that that instinct that 2d tubing cosmetics don't talk about but but i'm sure has been talked about by other people um is undoubtedly also an instinctual part of the system so yeah that's uh you you should be amazed it's a bizarre adaptation you won't see the horses do it you won't see the cows do it you won't even see the wolves do it you won't see the lions do it but you'll see humans do it and you're not going to see all of them do it you're going to see typically throughout the course of history the males do it and and the reason why is that it it is a it is an adaptive it's an instinct inside the human mail we feel that instinct uh when we when we're in heavy competition in sports you feel the same kind of thing in fact uh the person who doesn't back down from the greatest high pressure challenges and and wants to you know essentially take the big responsibility of the big risks the guy that wants to take the big shot we call that a killer instinct okay and it is revered in the sports world so michael jordan and kobe bryant are two of the of the most revered personalities in that game precisely because of their killer instinct lebron james has been criticized throughout his career for not having a killer instinct for his willingness to be deferential and to essentially not quote take over the game at the end now i think he actually does a brilliant job i think he's a uh i think lebron james has just a little bit less i'll take all the risks myself and if i win i get all the rewards and if i lose i'm willing to be the goat and i don't give a damn i think he has a little bit less of that intense gambler mentality that both michael and kobe had and as a result i don't think he makes uh i don't think he makes any worse decisions i think he makes outstanding decisions uh in those situations but we do see a personality difference okay and it is uh he's got a little less of that vicious selfish me first than either those guys had i.e the killer instinct wonderful all right wow yeah i really appreciated dr lyle the beginning of the the podcast where you explained how sports are essentially a proxy for war so we don't have to go and kill each other sure yes it's a uh however that doesn't mean we don't have big armies and a lot of international intrigue all the time because we do because the same the same instincts are still bubbling around uh in in the leaders of the world [Music] and we have those war games too sure yeah yeah all right all right our next question uh why are we more inclined to have high expectations even when they make us fall into egotrap while we don't like to have lower expectations even if they might help us is this due to social cultural messaging or upbringing or something else the cause no it's not sociocultural these are these are instincts and um what's happening is is that think of yourself think of yourself being quote bored in a relationship or bored with a job okay uh we're just bored sitting around with quote nothing to do what that means is is that you you are intuitively aware that you are not optimally using your time and energy in order to improve your situation with respect to survival and reproduction so boredom is the some some handsome dude that spent on casual mating strategy swaggers into a bar and there aren't enough hot women in there and so he feels quote bored okay he is that's a feedback system that says what we are doing right now is not advancing our interests or genetic interests ultimately obviously so the um so in the same way ex low expectations are you can't the the expectations that you have and the goals that you seek are not something that you can choose in fact you do not choose them the uh what happens is is that they occur to you so if you say to yourself no well i chose to buy that house you you i don't know who you is but what's actually going on inside that nervous system is that deep algorithms are at work here trying to figure out whether that's the best use of your finances and time and energy in pursuing that particular goal and that goal arrives in consciousness so you become aware of it and there's an integrated set of actions in order to pursue it and what a goal is is it's a hypothesized state of the organism that is different than the one that's in now and there's a a sequence of operations a sequence of behaviors that are going to be required in order for you to change your circumstances from where you are now to where it is that the goal you know would have you get to now you might say well if we set those goals really high you know if we set quote high expectations then this is going to potentially intimidate us into the ego trap whereas low expectations if we keep them low we will not be in the ego trap this is true the ego trap is a a particular point it's a particular motivational instinct that gets activated under very very tightly constrained conditions those conditions are that i have a goal so part of the information processing systems in my brain believe that i could achieve this now not only did they those circuits are coming up with the the probability that we might be able to achieve this they're also uh it's also true that other people who are aware of our abilities they too believe that we could achieve this so the problem is that even though the goal uh is worthy and we feel an excitement about what it would be like to have achieved the goal because we can compute the survival and reproductive benefits that would uh that would result from this i.e getting into medical school or ie getting into a surgical residency or you know opening my art gallery with my paintings and being a big success in new york that whatever that goal is the the the reason why the individual is pursuing it at all is because they believe that it's going to improve circumstances enough to be worth the time and energy now the it's going to be the case that in order to generate excitement that change of circumstances is going to need to be significant okay so the only thing that's going to be exciting an exciting goal an exciting partner an exciting job opportunity an exciting entrepreneurial activity an exciting vacation anything that's going to be exciting is going to be something that is going to move you from the states you're in now to a state where the where you believe the survival and reproductive circumstances are going to improve substantially relative to the cost of getting it so you could be excited about a sale at macy's on sweaters because the truth is you look at them and you're like yeah those were 50 sweaters now they're going to be 25 you it generates some excitement uh if if you plan on buying four of them and saving a hundred dollars and a hundred dollars is a substantial savings for you so the you don't you don't you can't choose what you're excited about and you can't choose your goals your goals wind up uh emanating from deep algorithms that basically tell you this is the most efficient use of your time and energy now the excitement that drives those things uh the excitement that goes along with the realization of a goal a realization of a possibility that you might be able to achieve something the that comes along with the possibility obviously if it's a prize situation that represents a substantial upgrade uh about from your circumstances to the new circumstances you can better believe that there are competitive pressures so if you are all excited for example about some deal on a flipper house that you think you're going to get a great deal on your excitement is tempered and driven alongside your anxiety that somebody else is going to get it okay you recognize that this is a is a an excellent opportunity and therefore there's tension in your system and there's focus and there's there's an urgency uh you meet a new mate that made seems very quote exciting which means that you feel like you're getting a great genetic deal if you're able to secure this you feel an urgency and excitement about the competitive problem that someone else may get there first and derail your great deal now so what i'm saying is is that excitement is the signal that things are that a potential change would be very good that's quote high expectations okay now the truth is high expectations come with an intimidating other side and the intimidating other side is we may try very hard and we may fail now oftentimes that doesn't create the ego trap so uh so tru you know bidding on that junker house that you're so sure is going to be a killer deal uh you may not have a feeling of oh no i'm not even going to try to bid because if i you know people think that i'm a sharp real estate person and then if i don't get it i'm going to look bad that you you may not have any kind of bizarre ego trap set up there that is going to stop you from doing anything other than pursuing that goal vigorously behind your excitement and urgency however there are circumstances where the goal that we seek is going to result is going to involve a performance that's going to be observed or cataloged and whether we succeeded or failed is going to be recorded in somebody's head if only our internal audiences but from the standpoint of simplicity here in the explanation the the um if we have sensed and we have data that other people would reasonably expect us to be able to achieve this goal and even though we think there's a reasonable chance that we could we also believe that there's a chance that we couldn't and if we don't if we attempt to do so and we fail but we may stand to lose a great deal of status as a result of that then now this becomes not just the expenditure of the time and energy is lost if we fail but also an additional price tag of a social loss has also been incurred so as a result the ego trap now springs its head now if we say to ourselves well gee the ego trap is such a miserable self-destructive you know essentially piece of work what if i avoid that by just bringing my expectations down and making them lower the problem is is that lower expectations you you don't get to select the goals that you go for if your expectations are are quote low then you're bored you have no motivation at all you already know that you can achieve this in fact it doesn't represent any improvement over the situation that you're in okay so that would be like being excited about about buying an investment house where you already know that you're paying full price and there's no particular upside why would there be any excitement why would there be any sense of urgency why would we be excited about a date with someone that we don't find particularly attractive and we don't think it's any particularly good genetic deal we wouldn't okay so therefore the the answer to the question is you don't get to choose your expectations your expectations are what they are and your excitement in this life is only driven by situations where there's a lot to gain and therefore there's excitement and high expectations a lot sometimes excitement doesn't result in high expectations for your performance like getting a deal on a house but for very many things where the ego trap is ever involved then it does involve this and so the ego trap is an instinctual check it's basically a very sophisticated piece of social psychological engineering inside of the human instinctual system to basically say okay we'll be careful be careful because even though you very well may succeed you may very well may fail and even though it would represent a substantial increase in your survival and reproductive chips uh it also may you may incur a substantial loss so this is why for example a lot of athletes do not have a killer instinct they have a different psychology they're a little bit different psychologically so they don't want to take the risk they are they could absolutely be ego trapped in a situation an awful lot of players for example do not want to be holding the ball in the last second and be fouled okay and then have to go to the free throw line and win the game from the free throw line uh that they they would they would like to not have to shoot those free throws uh because we're quotes supposed to make those free throws and if we miss them and we lose the big game you know this is we are way more the goat okay so that's the that's the explanation to uh to what is in fact a very good question well thank you dr lyle so i've heard that in some cultures it's it's a big deal to help people save face in the face of these types of things sure um how do you relate the quote saving face uh and egotrap um yeah i mean there there's a saving face i mean we have to break that down we know what we're talking about which is in other words trying to to signal to people that they have not lost that much status okay so this is a this is again a complaint of human psychology where we where we we are aware that someone is doing something or has done something that is that has cost them status we may feel for them empathically we may actually have our own status connected with them somehow uh possibly so as a result we have an instinct that may attempt to mitigate their pain because of empathic mechanisms or also to mitigate their loss so as to reduce our own so that that would be a component of the quote saving phase process you
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