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Episode 224: Current events, Growth mindset v Genes, Coronavirus compliance, Inheritance
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good evening everybody it's Nate G here along with dr. Doug Lyall and dr. Jen hawk with the beat your genes podcast for those listeners who have been listening to us from the beginning you know that we have been live for the whole time and so we are making a very slight change to the program now where we are taking voicemail questions only and we're no longer recording live and so as you've just heard in the new introduction the voicemail is seven one four nine zero zero two six zero one but everything else about the show is exactly the same so dr. Hawk is not with us today she's taking a little bit of a a bit of a break but dr. Lyle how you doing this evening good all as well I suppose it's all all's well in my world but the world's got it got its turbulence tonight but things are looking fine yeah well the the turbulence we we've had a few listeners send us some very excellent questions so dr. Lisle would you like to say something about what's going on today and in the world at present moment yes actually and folks Nathan Nathan shared some of these questions but I got a look at earlier today and I have to tell to tell you I'm I'm delighted with how intelligent and subtle and objective these questions are these are really really interesting questions very impressive graduate seminar level thinking which is what I was always hoping that that our little podcast might might be able to generate one day and it has so however this is a I'd like to be speculating and thinking through these things with folks tonight however this is a time for us to be very sensitive about about a very you know a touchy situation for many people and so I think the the right thing to do is to examine some of the dynamics of the issues that are going on at a later time when emotions aren't necessarily or won't be nearly as high the follows a a general set of life strategies and clinical strategies that I use that many of you have heard before several times which is number one never make a big decision and when a small decision will do we always we don't want to leap into things and make big decisions and so I don't want to have my comments look like I'm taking a some kind of a position when in fact what I'm always attempting to do is just to remain as objective as possible try to learn I'm in no way a political figure in any in any vector at all what I am is I'm just very curious about human nature and so you know my sort of Academical detachment that might come across might be offensive and I wouldn't want that to happen so the also if something is such a great idea to do something that that seems exciting or dangerous etc it's always a great idea to wait for a while and do it later so if it seems like the guy is really hot really exciting and really cool you know and you don't she only just got to know him and you really feels like it'd be great idea to have sex with them I'll tell my clients if it's such a great idea it'll be a great idea three or four weeks from now to that idea won't go away and it won't it won't decay and the same thing is true about the the very complicated dynamics that are going on in our country right now I'm seeing this now on Tuesday evening on the 2nd of June and things are quite a bit different and seem much calmer than they were just 48 hours ago and I'm very grateful to see that that's happening the reasons for everything that's going on I believe are an interplay of many many different forces and those will be worth looking at to try to understand and shed light on from an EP perspective at a later time the it's going to turn out that that when when people when two people are in conflict two or more people are in conflict or it could be two large groups if the conflict is very intense very serious business then it's going to turn out that the the gene survival mechanisms involved are are very sensitive about side taking so you'll see this in families or in relationships when when there's a lot on the line there is it gets to be very edgy and if any individual tries to step in the middle to analyze the process without simply taking one side or another of a conflict it can be it can go back very poorly so this is a something that that I want to refrain from doing by not getting in the middle of any analysis here at the moment this is undoubtedly a derivative of our tribal history so you you're either with us or against us and under those under very high emotion high-stakes situations objectivity is not easy to find and so as a result I think that all of us that might be interested in whatever light that that our little podcast can shed on anything I think I think our ability to contribute anything to this discussion for anybody who's interested in listening you our ability to do that is just as good or better later than it is now the so if then when we walk down this that road I won't want to walk it alone I've got a beautiful brilliant favorite political scientist colleague dr. Jen Hawke who of course is in here tonight there's a reason she's not here all the people under all circumstances and all animals are simply running cost-benefit analysis on their best interest no matter how no matter how deeply buried or cloaked or unconscious that is that's what it is and dr. Hawks no exception it turns out that yes she's she dumped us Nathan she's got a better deal tonight so there's something very very fabulous taking place dr. Hawks life will no more about it soon I'm sure but so even though it is fabulous we can still be irritated because it's inconvenient for us but we move on all right all right so let's let's go ahead Nathan let's let's let's serve up some good old-fashioned beat your jeans questions and see what we can learn absolutely fascinating thank you dr. Lyle for saying that my nervous system has been has been glued to every form of media for the last you know several days and I have been listening to your words in my internal audience to to beat my genes and part of that included you know installing a very very difficult content blocker to block the Facebook and block the news and block all the stuff going on and so that that has been helpful but we will move on to normal beat your genes questions that have been coming in as normal through the through the website in through the email so let's just go go with it all right okay dear dr. Lyle I love how you often advise individuals to overcome motivational barriers like the ego trap through lowering the cost of trying and failing this has made a lot of sense when you've talked about Carol Dweck's work in the her book mindset what I'm struggling with is how this lines up with Robert Plomin --zz work in his book blueprint I come from a family of low lifes junkies and drug addicts I was able to be the first person in my family to get a college degree of any kind and am looking at pursuing a PhD I'm willing to believe this might be reaching on my part and I might fail but it seems worthwhile to try if I were to look at my genetics it makes me think that I'm doomed to become a drug addict who accomplishes nothing wouldn't it be more useful to have a growth mindset about your abilities and let the environment then tell you where you are reaching out of your league if I'm being honest that genetics perspective just makes me feel hopeless where my lived experience does not how can I more usefully incorporate this perspective to help fuel my achievement rather than a fixed mindset of my own abilities as determined by my genetics mm-hmm great question deep thinking graduate seminar just what I was saying the all right it's it's a it's a fabulous question let's let's review quickly first what what the questioner is asking so that people understand the Carol Dweck who may or may not still be the head of department of psychology at Stanford University has a major theory that she devised called mindset and the notion of mindset theory is that if you have a growth mindset it means that that you feel like you are that you're not just great at something and so you don't have to you're not resting on your laurels you feel like you are growing and getting better and therefore you are more motivated whereas if you have a fixed mindset and the notion that you are what you are and you can't change that then then that would be demotivating and so do what basically any study she ever ran on this sort of works perfectly in other words that if you tell people things like well you're you you really make an improvement here you know a good job then a kid works hard or worse if you tell the kid hey you're great at this then they then they don't okay they will stop and he'll freeze and they won't want to do the next set of problems now she thinks it's a growth versus fixed mindset when I first read Dweck I was I was quite fascinated that that her experiments worked so beautifully and yet she didn't understand what was happening so by the time she had written this or the time I was aware of it I had already analyzed the problem Dweck's analysis does not involve evolutionary psychology so she's not thinking in terms of adaptive mechanisms so there'd be no way that she would understand that when she sees the resistance of the quote fixed mindset that she actually mentions she's throw the word around in an earlier chapter saying well it's just about ego or something well little did she know that I used the word ego to stand for the notion of an esteem meter or a monitoring device looking for esteem signals or status and so and that's a loose term that's used in in the just common vernacular and so that's how she was using it and it turns out little did she know how right she was it is about ego but it's not ego it's not a silly thing and it's not a an immature thing or disgusting thing or anything else the ego is the the or what we call ego is actually the operations of an esteem sensing mechanism what I call the esteem meter and there's a trap that's uh that is evident in motivation a self-destructive trap of procrastination and avoidance that I have turned the ego trap and the ego trap takes place when the benefits of essentially staying on the sidelines and not trying out are better than then the alternative action which is to try your best and fail so if you overly praise people and tell them how great they are they're not in a quote fixed mindset nothing of the kind is taking place there what's taking place is a cost-benefit analysis that the individual analyzes that you think they are fancier or more capable than they think that that then they themselves believe that they are and so as a result it's in their best interests genetically under those circumstances to understand that it is the right thing to do is to procrastinate and avoid and not demonstrate that you are in fact incorrect as an observer and that they are not as good as you think they are they want to hold on to the status I II what's happening is is the activation of the the status sensing mechanism or what I call you know the esteem meter or ego that mechanism is signaling with an overall CB that this is not in your best interest yeah there's nothing about this it's quote a fixed mindset okay so mindset theory at its core will at a superficial level it will demonstrate short-term little experiments that if you do them just right it will appears to confirm the theory but the notion that there are two mindsets and that the mindsets are inherently flexible and that you can choose one or the other is just utterly absurd that's and there's no truth in it at all as a result any long term effort to try to get anybody to change their mindset and therefore change their general attack on problems with respect to any any motivational dilemma turns out to be zero mindset theory is a total utter long-term complete failure there is no use to it okay now so then we wind up at Robert Plomin in other words mindset theory the notion that you could change things and it would change your trajectories substantially is incorrect and Robert Plomin is right and he's got the data and genes are largely destiny okay now where does that leave us well we're here to beat the chance okay so we're here to think clinically looking at at these two different perspectives we're here to say okay well what can you change and what you can change is the following that you can actually learn about the actual mechanics of the ego trap because the ego trap is not death and it's not inevitable is simply a cost benefit analysis dynamic that's why the name of my website and our approach Jen's and my approach is esteemed dynamics it's the notion that esteem processes are dynamic they're never static if they look static it's only because the the force field the the sum total of cost benefit analysis that are involved in the system are largely static okay it's not because esteem processes are inherently static they're inherently dynamic in other words they are responsive to environmental changes so you can't change your general personality structure about how inherently optimistic or risk-taking or anything else you are those are embedded in the genetic but when you find yourself in circumstances where you are essentially procrastinating and avoiding challenge then you cannot snap your fingers and scold yourself into a growth mindset that is not possible what you can do is that you can actually discover through the analysis of understanding of the dynamics of how your mind works that you have been by environmental cues you have gotten yourself worked into a situation where it appears that the benefit of procrastinating avoidance is succeeding the cost and the truth is is that that is usually incorrect it is superficially true only in some short-term limited basis only from a variety you know some particular perspective or some particular consciousness that we're attempting to Bluff but it is not in your long-term best interest so you can understand in principle how to deactivate the ego trap by understanding the true mechanics of how it works and why it works the way it works you cannot then generally apply it to your life as a general process that never works it's never true no change that anybody ever makes is on a general level at all because that would be personality no what you can do is you can change on highly specific very domain narrow problems when your particular personality and circumstances have arrived at the cost-benefit analysis that leads you into the non-competitive procrastinating to delay that we call the ego trap if you and I now know for example I can feel the ego trap in myself when it happens I can recognize the feeling I can also recognize it in others by across examining them and watching them and so as a result I know I know what that feeling feels like I recognize it and I understand its process so therefore I can actually also understand how on earth I need to grit my teeth look at the fundamentals be willing to sacrifice the short-term status loss at that surprising you know somebody's surprising observation of my relatively poor performance relative to what they thought I was going to be able to do and grind my way through the ego trap and to get out of it on the to get to the other side of it okay so that's why you no no no criticism to take Carol Dweck Carol Dweck is a classically trained social scientist looking at things from a learning theory perspective she's she's not aware really of the depth of of knowledge and and information and absolutely airtight lock on the truth that behavior genetics has so as a result she also as an experimental scientist she has an experimental paradigm that works if you had such a paradigm that works so beautifully you would think that it had greater long-term range in power and that it could be a domain general learning process it's clear from reading her book that she thinks it's domain-general and so in within her own family they kind of scold each other and monitor each other to keep a growth mindset instead of a instead of a fixed mindset it's like it's not possible okay so that that's the story so these are Dweck and and plumbing or on sort of looking at different aspects of it Plomin has the the broad domain general data of the nature of personality and and how incredibly useful that understanding could be but that does not mean we are trapped in we cannot actually improve our situations you you cannot change your personality but you can absolutely change your situation and the way you change your situation is by getting more information your all of your thoughts feelings and behavior take place as an interaction between information that comes into the system interacting with with two different databases one of which is that your learning history specifically and the other one is your personal genetically built nervous system as well those are two sources of variation why behavior is different from person to person and also why it's different from one person within their own lifetime at different locations in time that's because the the estimation of the environment changes with experience so therefore now instead of when I would have been 20 years old facing the ego trap I would have retreated instinctually from the cues that it would be giving me in order to stay away from the competitive problem hold on to the status as long as possible and avoid the challenge that was that is the genetic prescription for that it is not self-destructive per se it's a it's a it's an evolutionary devised strategy okay however it is not necessarily the optimum strategy in all conditions in fact it's usually not the optimal strategy if we understand how it is that we can get out of it okay that understanding is not obvious at all and so now that it's been clearly understood and I I know that it is now understood clearly by us here we we can we can actually step-by-step take people through the stepping stones that are necessary to get out of the trap you can learn that that is a domain general strategy by the way so understanding how the ego trap is once you understand that that is a domain general understanding of the nervous system you then take that domain general understanding and you can apply it quite specifically to every problem that a person faces where that's tugging at their nervous system and and and making their life less than it could be it's it's fascinating here you talk about this doctor law and I remember I'm gonna ask you for another example of an ego trend in your clinical practice but I remember the the first time you talked about this on the show where you described the the angst of a believer as a carpenter or a construction worker who yes who believed that he was he was supposed to make more than he he could have had ever thought he could make and that was stopping him from getting getting a you know going out and actually looking for a job in facing the reality that maybe he couldn't you know maybe he wouldn't get paid as much right now but do you have other exam a B I didn't report it right but but did you have other examples can you can you share with us maybe a story that comes to mind of a patient who was also in an ego trip I can I can I just what leaps to mind for me I mean there's there's there's been a thousand it's a common dilemma for people to be in particularly when they're picking up a phone trying to talk to a psychologist because they are there they're in some kind of they're in psychic pain they're in distress and conflict because because of failure in a competitive domain and one of the things that's happening is they're procrastinating and not moving forward and they can't understand why so there's been a thousand of those that we could talk about with respect to for example weight loss healthy diet getting exercise program together or anything else under the Sun like that the but what leaps to mind for me as as you just mention that and say in Kenya I could think of several but one of them that I've told about before was a I had I had given this presentation many years ago probably in early 2000s at an advanced City weekend for John McDougall and this this handsome elegant athletic man of in his mid-60s came up to me afterwards and and said to the effect oh my god now I understand something incredibly important in my life and and I said we'll tell me the story and he said for 16 years I was the number one tennis player in my Tennis Club I was always ranked number one but I did not ever play in our annual tournament and I didn't do it because I was terrified of being beaten and he says I played another clubs tournaments I did all kinds of stuff I went a lot of stuff but I never played in my own clubs tournament and I just made it a policy no I don't play in the club's tournament and he said he was all ego trap and I felt terrible about it made me sick I was bluffing everybody like I didn't care but really I was just afraid of losing and he says he says now that I see this I just should have played and she should have played he says I would have lost some but I would have won some and right now I'd have you know half a dozen trophies on my shelf that I don't have and a bunch of memories and it just would have been so much better it was such a weird life all those years in my club somehow the you know me being number one and never playing in the tournament he goes I thank you because now I understand why I did what I did I couldn't understand it so that's a that's an example of the the ego trap in a in a very very static looking social dynamic where the ego trap got put in place and was able to be stay there for essentially a lifetime or a huge chunk of a lifetime and caused a challenge avoidance that that impoverished this man's existence and in a way his life was less than it would have been he has a great life but he he's got he had some pain and some confusion about his own behavior and and why that took place that he then finally was able to understand the this is you know one day somebody will take the concept of the ego trap and they'll go back and they'll look at the most likely to succeed and it will be an interesting study just to look at you know 3,000 of our best and brightest you know high school students they get voted that on or and then track what happens to their lives and see whether or not we have evidence of some major avoidance of effort that is semi tragic in nature I don't really have any doubt about it that there is an influence in that regard to some degree so the what would Robert Plomin say about that he would say yeah their what their lives were probably pretty similar to what they would have been and I would add yes but this life experience of having expectations sort of permanently in shining Li put on you that were you know crushing I'll bet you that their lives were less than they would have otherwise been in most cases so that's the that's what I would say about that thank you so much and dr. Lao you know you've said this recently actually relative to how many shows we have but it's it's been stuck in my mind since then and I've when I find myself in what I believe is an ego trap I I keep trying to tell myself that the next best thing to playing and winning is playing and losing there you go there you go absolutely all right our next question mm-hmm all right dear dr. Lyle I'm noticing that despite the evidence that is widely available people who should not be personally overly fearful of the coronavirus are in fact quite fearful now you have discussed many possibilities for this including a reason for maybe opting out of competition and the like but I'm curious if what we're seeing is nervous systems intentionally generating personal levels of fear in order to maintain or obtain or obtain status it feels as though it is seen as low status low conscientious low compassion etc behavior to disregard the coronavirus as a threat and it seems people's internal audience is generating fear in order to obtain compliance and preserve status I'm curious if you think the area of the nervous system that is responsible for maintaining status is always competing with other areas of the nervous system and will have to trick its competition in order to fulfill its goals and that the best way to do that in the case of the corona virus is to create the impression that this thing is a personal threat fascinating thinking and so this this is there's a problem there's a little bit of a problem with this that the person is a the questionnaire has has sort of they have entered into a hybrid land where there's some psychodynamic thinking involved here the so but there's good thinking and there's creative thinking and then it's being tinged with some with at least in the way the language is being used some sort of there's a little psychodynamic magic that's being thrown in the sauce now so for example would it be possible that the nervous system could know that it's really somehow aiming at status so in order to get the status it needs to generate the fear which will generate the compliance which will generate the status know now the nervous system could never be constructed that way it's uh instead what you you could see is you could see something that half way looks like that and maps on to it in terms of a datasheet so it looks like this a highly conscientious person picks up the social cues that wearing a mask is a good thing now they aren't thinking necessarily the reason why they're wearing the mask primarily is there they are have anxiety about about the virus you might say well objectively they shouldn't be anxious about the virus but that's the whole point of being highly conscientious is that the when we say highly conscientious we mean above the conscientiousness of the middle of the bell curve so by definition anybody that's above the deaf above the middle of the conscientiousness mid line is is sort of typically distorted in the direction of overestimating the worst-case-scenario the person that sits at the middle of the bell curve has a nervous system that has been shaped by evolutionary processes to actually optimize the risk/reward ratios with respect to threats that's why that gene is more successful in the gene pool than every other gene on the bell curve of that dimension okay the so the so the hyper conscientious person is a person who is is dealing with a nervous system the is going to be typically over-investing in prophylactic measures to reduce the likelihood of loss no problem it's not a disaster if you're a little bit more conscientious than average then all is fine if you get to be super hyper conscientious then we can get all the way to you washing your hands 87 times a day and we can really see now that you are overestimating and you're wasting time and energy in a way that's vastly reducing your likelihood of of broad term broad spectrum defined biological success anybody that's got an OCD tendency in the Stone Age is not doing nearly as much romance and sex as the guy that is doing a lot less of the OCD rituals okay so so the way this works is the hyper consciousness individual who's wearing a mask is wearing a mask because they're hyper conscientious and they're worried about infection all's fair and honest now now they also look around and they're probably not just hyper conscientious about infection they're hyper conscientious more generally because it's the same suite of genes that's driving a hyper consciousness just in general so as a result one of the things that conscientious is about is about social status okay so they want to make sure that they are being viewed as in a very positive light for being highly responsible so now that adds to the equation so so it's the high conscientiousness that's driving both of these things not a fancy thing about hey what I want to status of course they won't stop us but the status isn't isn't through some back-channel fascinating mechanism trying to generate fear so that they will be more more conscientious than wear the mask no it's a it's a more direct broad spectrum direction of the the genes that lead to hyper conscientious thought feeling and behavior are generally directing generally directing the behavior on both dimensions number one be careful and number two let everybody know that being careful so that's how that's how that's working wonderful when one of the listeners sent me a picture and says that if this is how a verage people wear masks it's no surprise why we have so many and unplanned pregnancies all right what do we got next Nathan all right our next question dear dr. Lyle and dr. Hawk but dr. Lyle I guess you're here yeah I'm wondering what advice you have for people that may have inherited a lot of money or won the lottery how can this affect the self-esteem mechanism and what's the best way to handle the money to achieve happiness yeah a great question and let's look at we can immediately see the possibility for example we were just talking about the ego trap and you can see how under certain conditions the person could be ego trapped very easily they bring with them the trappings of success other people could believe that they would be inherently better genetic quality than they are and it could lead to some reticence with respect to taking on and diversity to diverse types of challenges so isn't necessarily the case but I could see how that could happen very easily the as a result through that mechanism and also through the mechanism of just straight path of least resistance that just through the energy conservation mechanism an individual is not in a natural set of circumstances potentially they're actually not in a natural set of circumstances so if I get lost Nathan just take mark down a little bit we're talking about natural sets of circumstances and motivation mm-hmm so one of the things that that I observe fairly commonly is the the mother of a teenager or early 20-something calling me up worried about their they're essentially lazy young man who is playing video games all day eating cheetos and doesn't leave his room doesn't even see the interact with any real friends and doesn't do very well in school or isn't in school and doesn't have a job but we don't know what to do with them and we're just worried because he's failing to thrive okay and the problem is is that we have an animal in a zoo and animals in a zoo aren't very happy because they come around and throw a steak of the tiger at 4 o'clock every day and that that the tiger isn't then able to do the things that Tigers do so therefore they they lack skill they lack muscle tone in other words they are essentially becoming a less competent animal and they don't get evidence of their capabilities so when this happens to humans it's not good it results in sort of a low-grade malaise the self-esteem mechanism is watching this and it's kind of rolling its eyes at the lack of achievement if the individual is being essentially self-indulgent which it isn't every inherited wealth person doesn't do this but they might do it and they might do it for numerous reasons number one just being sort of inherently lazy or number two could be ego trapped so there's reasons why this could take place pretty good reasons why it could take place now so the so the wealthy potential kid is not really seeing what good it's going to do them to work if they got you know five million dollars in the bank and it's generating 250 thousand dollars a year it's like what the heck's the point okay the and so as a result they're unmotivated they're an animal in a zoo and their nervous system is not actually under natural ecological conditions and you might say well are any nervous systems under natural ecological conditions and the answer is yes the natural ecological conditions are that that you need to you make efforts in the world in order to get resources in order to survive and reproduce so every fifteen-year-old boy knows that if he's not going to be given a fancy car he's gonna want to get one in order to get one he's gonna have to hustle and he's gonna have to be effective at Commerce and get his money together so that he can get a car so didn't go on a date so that he can get laid okay so this is the causal pathway that's associated with generating motivation and if we sever that pathway that the person is not in deprivation for for resources that would be useful for a variety of problems then we have undermined that individual's motivation so the question is what do you do if you're such an individual now some individuals in those circumstances don't have any problem at all the they are inherently motivated to rise in dominance hierarchies take on challenges and they may do all kinds of a variety of things in order to do that no problem there they're not suffering from the low achievement and challenge malaise associated with inherited wealth but if you are such an individual and you feel the sort of vague creeping feeling of malaise the life doesn't have excitement other than thrilled okay there's no sense of self esteem and achievement because we're not bothering because it's a little too much trouble and it's a little too difficult then we don't have to do it anyway okay we may feel ego traps slightly embarrassed and when time goes by we actually feel that it's a little bit more embarrassing a little bit more embarrassing as it's not a big deal at 19 to know how to have no income producing skill but when you're 32 it's a little bit more of an embarrassing issue okay what do you say to potential and new romantic partners when they ask you what you do for a living what have you accomplished okay so this is the this is the issue so what do you do about it okay well this is this is why all of these things have to be resolved on the individual level of analysis so every person is different in every set of circumstances are different so every every person that may face this may well be able to use some wise counsel and to be willing to run experiments to find out whether or not it's worth it to them to make any changes I can remember a long time ago that I had a client that had these circumstances and he was a middle-aged guy had had been essentially pretty lazy and self-indulgent his whole life and then he came into some money and he continued to be lazy and indulgent and but he came to me and he was troubled by this and didn't know what to do and you know I came up with a variety of ideas and possibilities etcetera but he's what dr. Hawk and I call a plumbing special in other words there wasn't going to be any change the he lived his life knowing that he was going to get some money and he lived it in such a way as to be as his energy conserving as possible and then when he got the money continued and so and I could tell that the emotional tone of his life never was one of he essentially lived his whole life as an animal in a zoo so if you're an animal in a zoo and you can feel that you are and life doesn't have the feeling of an adventure and achievement to it but that's that despite a world of opportunity and not having to be on the factory floor like so many other people in the world having no choices but but you have a wide variety of choices yet you feel the animal in the zoo malaise then you know you know get some counsel take some chances get and try to follow the faint threads of excitement in your nervous system and if you feel ego trap behind them you know try to try to take what we try to explain here about how to power your way through that so the you can get into a feedback loop where the excitement of achievement becomes a self-generating motivating force and that's how we're going to try to move a person out from under those kinds of strange burdens absolutely fascinating well it's interesting I was reading about lions in the zoo and it turns out that researchers when they put him under a fast fasting schedule they actually their mood improves they start pacing they start they start exhibiting behaviors yeah as though they're out in the wild and they're they're starting to do that now they're postulating because it's the fast but but from where you're saying on to land it makes perfect sense that now they're they don't know if they're getting food so then now they they're starting to pace back and forth and and start to activate some of those instincts that write them happy a little bit a little bit of deprivation you're supposed to be deprived yeah your your life is supposed to be one of not having as many resources as you would like okay that is the natural state of the organism and so it's a state of essentially it's its deprivation action satiation deprivation action satiation that's the that's the natural process of an animal and so you can see if we never have deprivation that deprivation very often then becomes thrill-seeking behind the pleasure trap and that's a you know that's a that's an understandable derivative often of being given things that that we didn't earn
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