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Episode 212: Being a therapist, Overcoming fears and anxieties
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dear doctors and actually this is a question that came from a listener who really you know just loves the show and wanted to ask dr. Lyle and dr. Hawk mm-hmm would you still recommend psychology as a career I'm interested in becoming a therapist and the podcast has turned what I thought I knew on its head and it has completely changed the way I would want to go about my theoretical orientation but now that it's so different I feel like I'm doubting everything could you talk a little bit about what it's like to be in the position of the therapist I'm looking for information to direct my behavioral output yeah I think I think Jen and I probably will bring subtly different perspectives just because we have we have a little bit a different slightly different relationship to people because me being a male and she being a female our minds are built somewhat differently so very differently yes we're a so are our responses of this might be a little bit different so for for me as we've now learned from from work and behavior genetics that that men are are typically often very interested in the way systems work and this to me I've been inherently interested in understanding the correct identifying the system of how psychology works in other words what's the nature of motivation why does it work the way it works this is what attracted me to the logic of evolutionary biology and then from there I was quickly and easily convinced that evolutionary psychology was the only correct view to understand people or animal motivation but certainly human motivation and which is what we're most interested in and so that from there we finally had a place to put our lever and we could develop a system essentially we could understand the nature in the system we're talking about is the of a system so we can understand the nervous systems workings and etc and so from there we you know sort of one wave at a time or one one insight at a time standing on the back of all kinds of giants we start building an understanding of clinical problems where they're coming from and what can and can't be done and essentially and so this person that's saying gee it's turning upside down all my thinking and my theoretical orientation well I would certainly hope so because the the other theoretical orientations are you know way behind you know they're they're back in the dark ages before we before we achieve conciliation thus filled and wedded clinical psychology and clinical problems to biology which is where they all come from so so from my standpoint yeah my my my sort of way I go about doing therapy doesn't really look anything like typical psychotherapy tickel typical psychotherapy is is is much more naturally it's got a feel of reap Aron ting to it because that's what their episode taught needs to be done they're they're taught that essentially the problems that you see and people's adulthood are derived from a sort of haywire processes of their development of their personality as a result of you know bad parenting and bad luck and bad things that happen to them etc this is all entirely incorrect and so the problems that you see are either derived from missa misunderstandings of the environment that can be corrected with correct understanding of the environment or they're due to personality characteristics that are genetic and so as a clinical psychologist I have a I mean sounds cold I mean I'm perfectly friendly but it's a it's a little bit like a technicians view of the problem it's it's very engineering based and that doesn't mean that can't be inspiring it can be inspiring when you you know I don't know I I I can remember being quite thrilled when I first use QuickBooks and a balanced a bunch of stuff is very exciting it's not like it's very relaxing yeah so the point is is that so uh my personal I actually I could probably be happy working you know working on problems in many complex systems but I happen to be human oriented and interested you know got some little estrogen in there somewhere and as a result I can do this and I I really like it I mean I bet I but I think I have a somewhat different you know emotional payoff that comes from me then might come from a more traditional therapeutic stance which is much more interpersonal and connected so one of the things that so I'll have Jen fill full Phyllis in on her you know her experience in a minute but for example I have never told people to schedule with me again next week and that we're gonna have we're gonna work on this over the next several months and we're gonna make a connection and we're gonna have weekly session never never in my career did I do that with a single client okay that whole view which is a very nurturing re parenting process is never been part of my repertoire never made any sense to me intuitively my job was to understand the where I could put my finger on the dysfunction and once I put my finger on it if I felt like he was personality variants that was not changeable I would say I don't think I there's anything I can do and here's what I would do but that's it and if I felt like it wasn't a personality disturbance that it had to do with their understanding of reality and the nature the competitive problems that they were facing and what they needed to do in order to directly address those competitive deficits I then then we mapped out a plan that made sense to my understanding of the nervous system and and I hoped to stoke excitement in them as they started to see and feel what it felt would feel like to get control of the adaptive challenge so that's how I have done it and none of that has ever looked anything like traditional therapy so what what does it like to be a therapist you know I kind of don't know because that's no I don't do it the way other people do it the way I do it is very much somebody that is a software debugger out there would know exactly what this feels like because it is I feel like I'm debugging software and and instead of having a program work what I have is in the nervous system now happier and more effective so that's that's what psychotherapy looks like to me certainly there's a human element to it but that's that's mostly what it looks like and and if that some sounds interesting to you great if it doesn't sound interesting to you we'll listen to Jen and see what her experience is we we don't know if this questioner is a systematize ur brain or a more relationally oriented brain so these are the two the two types of paradigms the more or less correlate with male brain in the female brain and although of course this is a distribution and there are lots of exceptions and they're they're women who are much more systematically oriented and men who are much more relationally oriented but all things equal men are systematize errs and women are are relationally you know interpersonally oriented and so I I think I come at this I mean I'm sort of an accidental therapist I didn't I didn't go into this looking to pursue therapy as a career I just stumbled into evolutionary psychology the source of source code of evolutionary psychology and had this kind of long-standing interest in helping people solve problems and and and helping try trying to help people clear distortion which is not quite what I realized I was trying to do and I was doing it and I've talked about this before but just in a lot of confused and misguided ways including astrology consulting and intuitive consulting and and working as a student counsellor at colleges and all of these different different practices that were not formally therapy but were you know using many of the techniques and I was I was picking up a lot of these things along the way and then then you come across the academic information of evolutionary psychology and it's it's like oh this is suddenly a much more efficient way to go about this even though I'm coming into the whole exchange with somebody from less of a debugging kind of perspective and I totally I recognize that dr. Lisle staying there because I've had the same feeling and I have a you know he's got enough estrogen in there to make him you know at least present as friendly enough in exchange to mimic some unconditional positive regard and I've got just enough testosterone so like understand like perceive the moment when I when I've debugged the program and and and get some joy from that and recognize that that's that's the most important thing that is actually happening in the exchange rather than me well gosh this has just been such a great talk and let's talk again next week which I also don't I've never tried to learn some buddy into a recurring kind of relationship where I think a lot of therapists that are doing that both are coming from a more like purely psychodynamic relational point of view where they really do want to build a relationship and if we build trust then you can tell me more about your childhood damage and we can peel away the layers of the onion and get to the truth and and go go through this whole this whole process where we heal your traumas but a lot of that is financial insecurity and scarcity and oh I've got a client I need to keep them so I need to lure them back next week I need to set up a recurring kind of relationship where where I think both dr. Lyle and I are like in the business of trying to get fired we're trying to not be needed anymore like okay well you know we D distorted the system one way or another whether it's through a confrontation with personnel limitation or a recognition of where the information was haywire in the system so people can can recalibrate and run a more efficient cost-benefit analysis which is really the whole the whole aim of the whole enterprise so I think I I definitely when you when you have somebody that you're able to take through a process and find where the big distortion is and it's a distortion that can be reckoned with in some meaningful way that's a very satisfying process but if you are relationally oriented I guess if you're systematically oriented or relationally oriented it is equivalently frustrating to run into situations where you can't D distort the system usually because of intractable personality cancer and personality issues so I would say that's the that's the major limitation if you if you go into this and you recognize the incredible salience of behavioral genetics in affecting human behavior and just human relationships and everything that you're going to be dealing with as a therapist and that that really is the limitation on the system and that there's nothing that you no matter how fantastic a therapist you are can do about somebody if they really are so distorted at the level of personality that they can't resolve the problem that's got that sort of inherent frustration to it so if you if you're comfortable with that and you're ready to go into it anyway then it can be very rewarding for sure just like any kind of problem-solving enterprise can yeah now do you find it difficult if you talk to somebody who has distortions that are not solvable two-cent I mean I know whenever I've done programming in my engineering you know studies it was really frustrating when there was something I couldn't debunk yeah just you know yeah yeah it is very frustrating and it's it's but I think you know I know dr. Lisle has has gotten more just with with more education in in the truth of behavioral genetics mostly through Robert Plomin whose book we talk about all the time blueprint and just through increased science in this field it's you you don't yourself as a therapist which is the initial inclination like oh I should be able to solve this like I should be able to debug this program where if you really understand what you're up against and you're looking at major major distortion especially distortion that's interacting with other kinds of personality Distortion it's you don't get in that game where you're taking responsibility for that situation anymore which is an important place to get to if you're gonna stay sane yeah and and what we what we do when people have personalities that are that this is so different I mean this is a great question so we're spending a lot of time on it but it's it's an extremely rich question an interesting one and that is that traditional therapy has it is totally lost here folks traditional therapy inherently believes that your personality can be changed specifically with respect to problematic aspects of your personality that they believe were caused by damage I mean this is this is really important to understand how wrong this is and the it is one of the great truths of all time is that now in late 20th century early 21st century we found out that personality variation is genetic and origin and not environmental this is this is of of just immense importance and in the decades to come there will be a greater and greater utility and recognition of this fact in everything in advertising in job placement and selection of majors for careers and you know in mating you know all of it like in certain all kinds of decision-making and so the and one thing that will ultimately be affected is that a hundred years from now they won't be doing psychotherapy with people that have personality variances that have them on odd places on the bell curve that are causing them to have recurrent struggles in the world there going to be able to try to fix that by going back in their history and then discussing things with them or trying to set up situations that will alter those things because they're not alterable so this is you know this is a hugely transformative realization it it's it looks from the outside of it first of all nobody in the field knows it okay so the average clinical psychologist has no clue that this has been discovered and so even if they've heard something about it they're rejecting it and they think it's all a mishmash and it's the old nurture versus nature debate and bla bla they don't know anything they're totally ignorant okay so and therefore they're lost and therefore their whole model of trying to help people with these types of problems is lost and it's a total waste of time now the forget where I was going now what I do is what I run into this what we can do is we try to essentially arrange the person's environment to to gerrymander our way around their personality struggles that's what you do you don't try to change the individual for God's sakes you try to change their environment and so that this is where the way that I will talk about things is so confusing for you know if you don't have some horsepower in there and you're not paying attention the way I talk and the way we talk in this area can be confusing because what I'll say is the environment is everything folks the environment has absolutely nothing to do with changing your personality that's not changeable but the environment is the only thing that we can change because your personality is basically immutable what it means is that we need to put that little critter in the place where it fits this is Jen's thing about you got to know what kind of plant you are so you need to know whether you need to be in the Sun or you need to be in the shade and so that's that's what you can do in clinical psychology with with these two those types of problems is you can think through reasonably what where to put the plant and after that you're pretty well done there is no great deep work to be done to fix it because there's nothing wrong it's just the variant so that's so there there will be you know a gradual major you overhaul of the way clinical psychology is conceptualized and and done in the next 50 years as the truths of behavior genetics are slowly and inexorably absorbed into the culture they it won't be fast just because it's very distasteful okay people don't you know this seems very very nasty it seems not see like it seems you know barbaric and rude and disagreeable and terrible it's none of these things okay it's just a realization that we are we are individuals and you know if you're five seven your five seven if you're six for your six four and there's really nothing we can do about it and so we put a five seven person we're five seven person fits and we put a six four person we're six four person fits you know I was just on a submarine you know about two two weeks ago let me tell you something you don't want to be six four on a submarine you want to be five - okay don't put the tall soldiers on the submarine that's just cruel all right so the anyway that's that's just some more some more of our thoughts about that that's the that's such a major part of what goes on in clinical psychology is this this nudging around and trying to change people's personalities that is a that is a waste of time the worthy all of the action is and the action is very dynamic very usually very quick and very important and potent solutions to adaptive problems comes when the person has miscalibrated or misinformed about the nature the competitive processes that they're facing normal clinical psychology never speaks of competitive processes it's not in it's not in the playbook anywhere okay it's it's it's actively not its it doesn't matter what other people think of you it dance like no one's looking you know just focus on your own it's just like like your dance like no one's watching kind of thing this is this is very much the opposite perspective I think that that's the most I think I've said this before that's the most that's the most bizarre little thing that seems so inspiring that little quote that the truth is when when I when nobody's around and nobody's watching I'm dancing as if they're watching and if they're watching I'm absolutely good worried about what they're thinking when they're not watching that you're practicing your moves you're checking in with your internal audience that's the whole point the whole point is what do they think when I'm dancing what the hell is the point the peddler's of transformation like this is such a this is this is the equivalent to the good news about bad habits in the dietary world you know if you just eat more butter and Brie you're gonna lose more weight like oh well you know you your personality is absolutely we can transform it if we just heal your past trauma and you're not gonna have these problems anymore like who can say no to that if you're if you're if you've got two therapists to choose from and one of them's you know us being all surly over here saying sorry there's not much we can do you got personality cancer like you can try to change your environment but good luck and then you've got someone over here saying well no of course you can transform yourself like we just need to understand what happened to traumatize you in your childhood and can heal this process and then you can move forward like that is much more attractive and appealing to a lot of different people who are looking to avoid competitive process and so to just have an easier go of it so it's not this is not gonna take the world by storm in any hurry both because it does ring of uncomfortable truths like like dr. Lyles talking about earlier but also because the the magic being salespeople are not going anywhere anytime soon too with their promises of deep transformation and and personality growth epigenetic yeah and even for the well-meaning even for the well-meaning people it sounds like they're trying to debug a program not understanding that it's a hardware problem right haha that's right yeah right that would that would be a lot of cognitive therapy is going to be working a lot that direction right they're not they're not deep transformational you know trauma mongering fools they are they're working much more surface level but they they have no recognition of behavior genetics in that field and they also incidentally have no recognition that the core problems that give rise to human struggles and discomfort are competitive so the this is where no and so this this is the beauty of integrating biology with psychology where it belongs biology is all about competition and so when we when we can look that squarely in the eye and we start talking I mean that's the first you know those are some of the incredible resounding sentences that I read in Dawkins the first time I read Dawkins it's like oh my god like this whole show is about being sexually attractive it's like well of course it is you talk about talking to my source code you know you know as a 30 year old 29 year old guy it's like you bet that's exactly what's on people's minds and to finally have someone just say so so casually and so you know so authoritative lis from the standpoint of evolutionary biology it's like oh my god how clear and obvious and unapologetic can we get and you know what it is the way it is and therefore setting sail for trying to improve people's circumstances with respect to their competitive abilities and important domains that that is that is uh that's what I try to do and that's where that's where the big money is made the big emotional money is made is is in working a bad angle rather than working on the angle of we're going to cause you to be fundamentally different that that's a waste of time all right wonderful well it reminds me I just read the part of an article a couple of days ago that just came out in the if it was a doctoral student out of psychology at Ohio State is David Craig and Jennifer jeevan's mhm and it's a 27 study meta-analysis and it was it was called gratitude interventions effective self help and they they tried to study that whether or not gratitude interventions you know expressing gratitude you know actually helped symptoms of depression and anxiety and they found that it basically had no effect at all which was contrary to what many people tend to think you have to write a letter thanking somebody or that you have to you know engage in these gratitude events and that'll help you with your depression and anxiety right and they found that it actually has has no effect at all which is nothing new based on what we've heard from you dr. Lauer sure but it's another nail in the car oh yeah like what what competitive problem was that supposed to help solve and the answer is no it's gonna have two magical mindset changes like I don't know what the hell they're thinking but it's it's not evolutionary biology we don't have the aardvark you know try to get more gratitude about his or her current circumstances to improve their emotional functioning know if you're a scared aardvark find a place where you're less scared that's what you need to do the Prine a little and try to get laid something may make you combated to change alright what else we have Nathan alright one of our questions our next question is dear doctors how do I overcome fear I have a friend who is brave and courageous I would so like to accomplish those qualities but whether it comes to skydiving public speaking or taking other risks I'm super scared and it takes so much time for me to make the leap how can I make the leap easier and become more courageous when I know that's what I really want are there any tricks shortcuts or techniques or maybe game-changing information regarding this it's appropriate we've been discussing personality because this is is largely a personality question so I think there's there's a big difference between having a specific phobia like a you know quote-unquote irrational phobia of something and just having kind of a risk-averse personality and it sounds like the way that this question is phrased it sounds like this is a person who's just a little more risk-averse than their friend is who's a little more you thrill-seeking so this is this is a bell curve and personality just like any other it's gonna it's gonna map closely but not perfectly on to openness you know the intersection between openness and conscientiousness and a couple of other different things so those those forces are going to interact and fight each other a little bit but some people are thrill-seekers and some people are not some people are adrenaline junkies some people are not so if you're not a if you're not a skydiver and your friend is it's that's very much just a question of baseline personality and you're not going to will yourself into becoming somebody who you know jumps out of planes for fun because that's who you would like to be and that seems like it would be a more effective sexual display to the village and all of the other reasons that you might want to cultivate that kind of public image of yourself if that's not your personality it's not your personality if you've got a specific phobia of something that you that is like you know debilitating and that you would like to overcome so they mentioned public speaking as well so that is something that you can improve through the process that we're talking about in the earlier question about about the therapeutic process by improving your information and so in that case you're you're improving your information and you're running a more effective cost-benefit analysis on the how risky it is to engage in public speaking by gradually exposing yourself to to small little doses of activities that mimic public speaking and then and then actually putting yourself out there on stage in front of people and basically teaching your nervous system over time gradually bit by bit that this is something that you can do and it's very scary but you did it and you didn't die and so as you progressively expose yourself to to that kind of input and and train your nervous system to some degree you can you know this is a process of exposure therapy you can move the needle on how comfortable you are with something and how fearful you are of it but you're not going to fundamentally become a more thrill-seeking adrenaline junkie kind of individual just because you you want to be or because your friend would want to be so that's the that's the main take on that but if dr. Lyle has anything to add and I'm sure he can jump in and go to a dynamic list I'm just curious also it's it it's interesting that this person equates skydive are not equates but skydiving and public speaking is like the same you know in the same sentence now the rest of the risks so yeah yeah that's why I that's why I'm inferring that it sounds like just kind of a this is somebody who's probably very similar to me which is you know you've got a lot of openness in your system and you would like to do a bunch of thrill-seeking things but you also have very high conscientiousness which vetoes those things my life was much more interesting in my 20s when I drank a lot of alcohol because I basically took my conscientiousness offline so I was much more I did a lot more thrill-seeking adrenaline type activities and so I guess that's another tip is to drink more that's a way you can change your environmental situation to to change your cost-benefit analysis it's not necessarily one that I would actually recommend though but that's that's another form of distortion actually so yeah if you're if you've got a lot of openness you you're feeling the desire you're basically perceiving the benefit to your to your public display and your sexual display by being a really courageous person and how that's gonna impress the the you know whoever you might want to impress in the sexual arena but if it's the conscientiousness is kicking in and saying no that's that's too risky we can't do that and so that's creating some dissonance and frustration so I I understand that battle but that's that's gonna be a tension that exists in your personality and if you have specific fears that you want to overcome the the only way to overcome those to some degree is to slowly expose yourself perfect the we we also learned something a couple weeks ago on that submarine Jen and that's that we learned from the guy that gave us a tour this thing that oh yeah who was very tall by the way he was very tall I couldn't dad time way too tall for that summary wait the he that he said his he seasickness never changes it away yes yeah that was interesting as someone who suffers from seasickness I was like ah crap like really this isn't something that I can just like become if I get on if I get on a boat every day I'm gonna eventually get over it like no I just have the genes to be prone to motion sickness and you're stuck with it yeah yeah and so yeah he was amazing because he was like this six foot three six foot four dude who suffered from chronic seasickness everytime they surfaced and so he was puking in a bucket he had to carry around a bucket with having a terrible time but he loved the service and he loved being on the boat and so he stuck with it personality man man holy smokes yeah good all right what else we got one more yeah exactly like cilantro actually it is these are all these are called very specific circuits yeah all right well let's do one more I am okay all right so it's kind of a similar similar topic dear doctors I love the show I'm a female in my 50s now and all my life when someone's mad or upset with me for any reason and no matter who has the right to be upset with me I cannot live with it I perseverate on it and I cannot shake things until things are resolved and even after sometimes I don't find a release I'm surprised that at this point in my life I cannot shake this for example at work I made a mistake and I'm working to fix the error but I'm ashamed and even though I'm moving forward with efforts to fix the problem and grow from it I cannot rest for weeks what is this heavy and stressful feeling trying to tell me yeah this is a hyper conscientious nutcase yes which I I say with great love and affection as a fellow HCN see as we call as we call this particular personality diagnosis so you're very high conscientious human and you're experiencing a reasonable emotional response to a certain situations if you make a mistake at work you're supposed to feel some degree of anxiety around that because you might lose your job you've you've decreased your likelihood of genetic survival because you've you've put yourself and your and your well-being and your financial security at risk so you're it's appropriate to have a certain amount of anxiety and fear and disruption around that because your your nervous system is is telling you hey you you made a mistake that was potentially really problematic let's not make that again let's let's you know learn from this and adjust course and refrain from making this mistake a second time so that that's the the middle of the bell curve for conscientiousness would have that kind of like whoa crap like I really messed that up and that was bad and I'm gonna be really careful not to do that again someone who's on the flaky end of the bell curve is like yeah whatever shit happens like I said I think easy come easy go I'll quit the job and go go work at Starbucks now next week it's all good but you're at the other end of the bell curve you're at the very highly conscientious point where you're essentially any kind of mistake like that the feedback is super amplified because you're filtering it through this highly highly conscientious nervous system that is it's taking every little mistake too seriously it's it's giving too much weight systematically you know dr. Lisle will use the example of a calculator so if your brain is a cost-benefit analytic engine that's running these these calculations on the next best use of your time and energy based on all the available information in the input it's a calculator that's going to systematically produce the same result but if the calculator every time you enter six in or twelve instead it's going to be systematically biased that number is going to be it's gonna it's going to be wrong it's going to be exaggerated and so that's what you're doing here you are having an exaggerated essentially incorrect distorted response to the the same input that someone in the middle the bell curve would have and so that's your personality that's who you are and so that's why when we're talking about change your environment you can't change the fact that you're an h c NC and that you your calculator says 12 when it should say six and so you you have to put yourself in situations where you're not working for a disagreeable micromanaging boss who's gonna freak out every time you make a mistake and and and put this kind of pressure on you all the time you need to be in relationships where you're not being criticized on a regular basis you need to you need to just create opportunities in your life where you're able to more organically relax and not put yourself under as much pressure as as a lot of situations that H CNCs will get themselves into because highly conscientious people are very attractive employees especially if they're also agreeable they're very they're very attractive friends because people can count on them so they get in these situations where they feel a lot of pressure and people have a lot of expectations of them and that's actually a really bad scenario for their particular nervous system so so this is who you are and I say just tend tend to yourself as best as you can and give yourself some room to breathe as much as you're able perfect this is we've talked about this before if you the way it's a strange impersonal sort of way to look at people but to some degree this is the glasses that I have on now and the glasses are look at them as animals and yeah in the same way you would look at dogs or cats and so you everybody knows I got two cats one of them looks incredibly stable and extroverted and runs out to the car when I pull up and I just can't believe she does that okay she's just way too comfortable so I've got to really be careful with her because she's not careful enough but for herself the other one if she's sitting on my lap and a tiny little sound clicks in the house she leaps off of it okay that one's named boo she happens to be all black and it's like as if somebody says her boo okay that's why she's named that as the she's she's spooked okay and so booth lives quite a good life but probably 20 times a day she gets a little little anxiety attack you know for a few seconds they're a little speck of anxiety whereas Annalise doesn't and at least can go can go days without anxiety these are individual differences and it's they precisely better hunter by the way oh yeah yes yeah and this is way too comfortable just saunters around the yard so the yeah so if your your yeah Oh Annelise just comes up and and just lobbies me for food that's the only reasonable thing for her to do the but yes they that but the notion is here if your boo which this person is that you need a nice quiet cul-de-sac with exactly as Jen's talking about you need nice people around nice relationships nice quiet situations you know live in a place that's not conflicted with where you have to fight for parking places and people might in your door this is this you you want to work as effectively as you can to put yourself and very you know is minimal of stressful situations as possible that's what you can do and changing yourself is something we can't do and that's one of the great lessons of modern psychology there is just one one more thing to add to that because it all sounds I know it can it can sound a little fatalistic and like they're just you know it's it's a little bit there's nothing active that people can do there you know some people will have some some benefit this is where IQ enters the picture and we talked about this a little bit last week too so the the awareness of your distortion can give you a lot of peace and so you know if you're if you're an H CNC who can kind of watch yourself have a little out-of-body experience where you can you you learn about behavioral genetics and you you know that this is who you are and that your distorted on the bell curve you can get to a place through for lack of a better word of mine this kind of relationship to your own personality where where you can observe that you are reacting to certain kinds of things in a way through the filter of your personality and it's it's not that you can change it I don't want to imply that through mindfulness you can then you know you have more control over your reactivity you can't but you can you you can have become aware of when you're your hashtag you know triggered and and that you're you're reacting in a way that is irrational and that is caught likely to cause you unhappiness and so even though you can't change it and you can't change the the wellspring of emotion that's happening inside of you having the awareness of the process and that it's coming from a distorted personality perspective can be helpful and and can give some space to people who were otherwise looking to oh why am i this way because I learned it in childhood and I I was compensating for my maternal neglect or I was you know what whatever story people have come up with to try to describe their personality which implies that they could therefore transform it if you can get away with that and just recognize oh but well the calculator just spit out the wrong number again because it's you know I typed in six and it got it wrong just like it always does through time over time and and through some practice of just watching that process it can it can give a little bit of freedom to two people who have awareness of it
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