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Episode 195: Pleasure Trap, Making yourself proud, Social cost of eating healthy
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holidays are coming up and well one holiday just finished I guess I don't even know if we can call it a holiday Halloween but but missile holiday what are you talking about that's the most important holiday of all lots of candy everywhere but Thanksgivings coming up and you know the winter holidays are coming up as well and so I've gotten a couple of questions from people just trying to figure out a little bit more about the pleasure trap and so a couple of listeners sent me an article recently that's been in the news so I think came out last week from the New York Times it is called how to feel nothing in order to feel more later and so the catchy title was talking about something called dopamine fasting so I wanted to get both doctors takes on this so apparently there's these three three businessmen I say businessmen lightly because they're 20 they're in their early 20s and they're these startup founders and you know vision came out yeah business kids yeah and so they're they're trying to do this thing called dopamine fasting and they're they're the the doctor who they interviewed for this for this article is a professor at UC FS Medical School and he said that you know dopamine is just a mechanism that explains how addictions can become reinforced because the titles not to be taken literally so he says it should actually be called stimulation fasting and so you know interesting how they did this they don't do any they don't eat they don't look at any screens they don't listen to any music they don't exercise they don't touch any other bodies physically they don't do any work no eye contact no talking more than absolutely necessary funny as a photographer can take their picture but they shouldn't be any flash so what they're saying is they're hoping to be eventually doing an ultimate dopamine fast which is completely sensory deprivation and so dr. Lao you wrote the book on the pleasure trap and dr. Hawk you you do consultations with patients who are you know trying to essentially decrease the stimulation when it comes to food so I wanted to hear your take on these things on this dopamine fasting mm-hmm yeah something because I saw this article cross my feed last week - it was really making the rounds and I think this is use a couple of things going on here it's a case of people knowing just enough to be dangerous and come up with some wizkid business plan associated with it so there's a fancy words like dopamine that they don't actually really understand what that means or what it describes and so they are just trying to think of a way to monetize the age-old practice of virtue signal hang on basically so this is this is there's nothing wrong with dopamine per se that dopamine is this is a natural signal the brain is giving you to tell you that you're doing the right thing so primarily associated with food and sex this is the body's way of letting you know that you were on the right path for survival and reproduction and for people who have heard us talk about the pleasure trap before they know that part of what's going on with pleasure traps big part of what's going on with the pleasure trap is that's the hyper normal super normal foods in the modern environment are essentially hijacking those pleasure pathways in the brain and they're giving you it an extra extra big dose of this pleasure chemical in the brain essentially that is making you unable to make appropriate decisions about whether to continue engaging in that behavior or not so this is the idea that you can do some kind of end run around that process completely by going on some kind of fast from it it's a really cute little way to monetize a new idea in Silicon Valley but it's not it's not actually going to make you immune to the siren song of the pleasure trap whether that's from food or from social media screens or anything else so you know people can can take a little break from things and they will feel just like just like people who come to true north or come to the fasting escape and they take a little break from supernormal stimuli and high calorie dense food whether they're fasting or just eating a healthy whole food plant-based diet you know healthy food tastes a lot better to you after you've abstained entirely from food for a while because you've reset your palate and you've readjusted to the natural pleasure that is associated that you're supposed to feel by doing something that is going to contribute to your survival like eating good food but it doesn't make you any more immune to supernormal stimuli when you when you go past haagen-dazs that next later later that day the supernormal stimuli is still supernormal stimuli so that's that's kind of part one of what I would be concerned about with this whole thing and this is the whole misguided nature of this process the other is that I can't I can't help but see some serious status shenanigans going on here like there's there's a lot of virtue signaling of purity and abstinence and I you know it's very enlightenment trap adjacent this is age-old practices of withdrawing from worldly concerns and tuning into higher higher information and essentially opting out of competition in the way that we talk about it with the pleasure trap it's also a little bit of Earth's are the Enlightenment traps and there's also I mean these guys are avoiding everything from oh oh you know it's I'm on a dopamine fast so I can't talk to you I can't go on a date I can't make eye contact there is some some serious competitive avoidance and impression management here where it can be very convenient to go on a dopamine fast instead of going on a date that might not go well or going on going to a big meeting at work that might not go well so it's always worthwhile when you're baffled by something like this that floats across your social media feed to investigate where the status is and I think there's a lot of that in play here so that's my two cents on it it's ridiculous also fertilized duck jumping he has anything else dad more like a hundred bucks that's not too soon right terrific right right oh yeah you know all the doctor hi um it sounds like sounds like you hit the nail right on the head because I'm going to quote from you quote to you an article from a quote from this article says their usual schedule of all day every day hacking away on different projects was too much investors and clients had to man their startup iterations had turned into a real job and quote of one of the guys here I'd never thought about fasting work once there was pressure on work became less fun and I thought maybe we'll try fasting instead yes how terribly convenient that is yeah yeah and it's beyond reproach as far as though it's just like when you're on a cleanse you know you can you can misuse these things in ego trappy and enlightenment trappy kinds of ways to avoid the more difficult work of actually changing your diet long term but it's very it's very beyond criticism to say well I'm on I'm on a dopamine fast so I can't be expected to do that difficult thing at work today or have that difficult social interaction so very handy little excuse especially when it's got the seal of approval of the of the moment by you know being published in New York Times and being the story of the moment on everyone's Facebook feed okay I appreciate your your explanation because it really gets to the heart of the truth of the matter which is that we've got to be working rather than trying to float by literally and figure yeah yeah yep yep all right our next right go imagine a 20 year old male every day he plays video games eats Twinkies drinks Mountain Dew binge watches netflix mindlessly Scrolls through social media and watches pornography what are the long-term and short-term effects of all this supernormal stimuli is it too much dopamine is too much to opening detrimental in the long run there's I don't think I heard anything in there I didn't hear anything about drugs or alcohol so no just map 0 all right Mountain Dew so this is all minor-league there are no long-term effects of this there's this this is nothing other than this this brain is being enticed into this sort of a world of supernormal stimuli that's not damaging but all the all this individual really needs I'm going to imagine this individual I don't have to Hachette idea live with one of his the what they need is called an apartment and okay yes rent Giuliani years right they need rent do they need an electric bill and they need a refrigerator that's empty that's all they need that's a for having a empty refrigerator deficiency syndrome and as soon as they face that that syndrome that syndrome gets taken care of then then it's all the problem go ahead we need a good acronym for that yes that's what that yeah so yeah no no no harm done I have HCMC parents who will call me up and wonder about their their son that's you know sort of a bright narrow do well is about accomplishing anything and and they're afraid because you're the kid kid might have made some halfway suicidal noise you know five years ago so god forbid we put any pressure on it and mmm-hmm and he's casually depressed and you know had a girlfriend for a week and then got done so that's a bad thing so now is not the time to actually you know make him face the refriger refrigerator deficiency we just talked about fam yeah maybe that is the refrigerator deficiency yeah so there's uh the solution so far in my career I don't know how many times I've forced the hands of parents successfully probably no more than maybe it doesn't but I believe that whatever the number is I am pretty sure my batting average is a hundred percent so a hundred percent there's a miracle occurs when when the deficiency syndrome could fit haha the miracle of responsibility and effective behavior so that's that's the only that's the only problem they exist here which is that the organism is simply responding to its context and if the context says I could be stimulating you know lazily stimulating hyper stimulating the dopamine pathway and not doing anything to get there no effort to get there and that's what it's going to do it's going to be done so long as we provide the context that that's what it can do that's what I call an animal in the zoo and so we let them out of the zoo we open up the cage we don't just let him out we kick them out kick them out of the wild and make them make a make of forage yeah they get affected very quickly yeah that question it's a new phenomenon that people have has become you know this way because of you know the stimuli in the modern environment or that there's something wrong culturally with these kids today or something like that but it is just a function of the fact that it's we we've got more people effectively living in the zoo than ever it's the most abundant benign you know the safest environment that humans have ever lived in for their entire natural history and so people who are more on the side of the bell curve to you know live contentedly in the zoo and drink Mountain Dew and watch porn and not not engage in self esteem processes around big competitive goals they're more likely to do it so yeah you just got to kick more people out yes and notice they put porn at the end of the question you really should have put it first like ingredients in the cereal you know I mean we're supposed to put the biggest ingredient first putting it video games and yeah come first and yes wind our way down all right yeah well you know equiptment his best life yeah all right let's go on well I actually wanted to sidetrack a little bit because you said that in your career you've been you've you bet a hundred but you've been successful at having the parents do this you know a dozen times or so what is it about parents and children that you think is preventing children from listen I mean a parents from listening to you oh yeah there was my success there is low the parents are just terrified and so you know particularly moms are terrified not it's not always mom that's terrified but it usually is so mom is terrified inherently you know more sensitive and worried about her little cub and I'm worried about the little hurts that he's that he's suffered and and can't quite picture you know I try to try to draw this picture this person talks about 20 year olds those that same 20 year old with storming the beaches of Normandy okay under under German incredible German howitzer fire that's that's what that nervous system is capable of and so the fact that now we're worried about it actually having to go down to god forbid Taco Bell and apply for the job you know right right right in the middle of Bakersfield like oh my god this is going to be really hard no matter what for and you know he doesn't have his dad took away the car because there was some you know problems so dad put the foot down so he'd have to ride his bike down there it's like six blocks no God so yeah ladies you are a yeah this is uh this is just you know naturally sensitive worried people miss calibrated as to what it takes to get a you know to get some creature out of the this horrendous energy conservation trap this is an animal in the zoo and you got to open up the cage and you got to put your foot in their rear end and push them out and the parents are very worried about this a lot of times and so yeah I'm not always successful I'm very often not successful getting parents to follow through but when I am successful getting all through it works like a charm that's how it works yeah fantastic alright alright our next question I feel like I'm stuck in a diet mindset where my internal audience won't recognize any of my efforts unless I'm 100% compliant all the time which basically means I have to log everything I eat and closely monitor my weight essentially I feel like I'm not trying hard enough when I just follow a plant-based diet I can maintain my weight without weighing anything but I don't get the positive feedback from my internal audience unless I'm super strict is this because my audience knows that I have a cheat meal once a week I would like to lose maybe 10 pounds but enjoying life a little bit is more important to me than losing a little bit of weight is my internal audience telling me that in reality losing 10 pounds is more important or why am I feeling this way and can't stop feeling guilty if I'm not perfect hundred percent of the time considering all the crap other people eat I feel like I should be able to have one meal a week that's not on a percent whole food plant-based and still be fine and not feel all this guilt what say yeah I can jump in on this one too so this is you're trying to negotiate with the internal audience and negotiating with the internal audience is like trying to negotiate with an IRS auditor like the internal audience it knows if you've been good or bad it knows when you've been sleeping it know it knows everything and it's working a very it's making an accurate assessment of how it's essentially if the internal audience is agitated and it's giving you negative feedback which it is in your case it's because it knows and it knows because you know that you're using competitor chips on the table and in this case it's your cheat meal it's it's those ten pounds your internal audience is saying hey you're you are potentially selling yourself short of your your potential competitive standing in relation to your these competitive domains that you're in because you were indulging in this cheat meal every week and you you're trying to have a rational discussion about how you you you know quote unquote value your social life and living a happy life more than you got value those 10 pounds but you don't actually know that because you you haven't lost the 10 pounds and so the internal audience just knows that all the situation is that your you're putting yourself at a systemic competitive disadvantage and so you're not going to make any headway as far as overcoming that dissonance until you get more information about whether whether it's true that that but there is a big happiness difference there and that that experiment that you should run would be one of extreme diligence about cutting out the cheat meal about really applying yourself completely in a very devoted diligent really all-in sort of way for some constrained amount of time and see if that impresses the internal audience and if you meet that goal if it quiets down as far as indulging from time to time if you're able to maintain it that way so you can do that by you know you could just stay at home and be super compliant like you've talked about that you you have some experience with that but it might be easier if you're if you're approaching this in some kind of time limited experimental way I mean this is this is what makes the fasting escape and in places like it's so great because you can really just get yourself into that environment where everybody is doing that and you're you're really just all in for some constrained short period of time to get more information to recalibrate the internal audience if it needs to be recalibrated but I would say that it's you know the fact is that cheat meal depending how indulgent your you are on that cheat meal people can be quite indulging on their cheat meal every week let's say it's a fast in calories a week you know you're easily cutting your calorie deficit for the week in half for more so if you are trying to lose 10 pounds you're slowing that way down to you know it's going to take you years if at all and you may be keeping yourself just at a complete equilibrium which it sounds like you might be so this is this is an experiment it's a short experiment and it's easily enough done by checking yourself into jail for a while so that's what I that's what I would recommend just to get the most information the most efficiently and and to move forward with armed with better information for both you and your internal audience Wow fascinating yeah I don't appreciate the plug to fasting escape oh yeah North called them got true north navigators I think MacDougall's program they call them them in Googlers so that fasting is gave them the fasting escapees so I like that perfect yeah well yeah yah yeah cherry North is great too also a great option for people who want to check themselves into jail it's just usually booked out several months ahead of time so I think it you know people could get into into your place a little quick remote more likely so I'm true north you're on a long waiting list alright thank you so much yeah all right our next question I understand your view dr. Lyle on how to handle questions about things like why do you eat that way etc however I'm wondering about what to say when people say things like oh I really need to do something about my weight so I've just started eating the low carb high fat diet or question or things like I have diabetes so I can't eat pasta or carbs or potatoes lately my response has been to smile and say nothing however I'm left feeling frustrated that there was so much that I could contribute to the conversation but I have to hold back what's the best approach when people say or do things that are either simply wrong or not the best solution particularly when you care about the other person and want to be helpful [Music] there say there's a number of considerations in with this question and let's it's just one of the things that I I have a lecture but some people that are listening it probably heard it's called getting along without going along and it's really the story of the esteem dynamics that are involved in these interactions with other people around food certainly the the principles apply to everything but it's particularly dicey around food the food is that you know people aren't going to argue what with someone who's got an alcohol problem is saying hey I need to I need to you know I need a at that stain that's turning over my wine glass people are respectful of that generally speaking and and then with cigarettes or something like that but with with food they're not going to be because almost everybody on the other side of the table is you know eating kind of whatever it is that they want and that they believe that it's healthy enough and and so these two disagreements that would form are going to be sensitive because it puts us into these camps of I know more than you do and I'm more conscientious than you are and so that that winds up being the esteem signal that comes from anybody who's going to educate preach or demonstrate superiority in the dietary arena so my general suggestion about this is to completely stay out of it there are multiple reasons for that the the chief the chief reason is is that that the people on the other side are very likely to be defensive about this which means what we mean by that is it means that they are feeling that they're in a one down position in terms of the esteem dynamic that you are preaching and looking down at their inferior behavior and inferior knowledge and and they're therefore they're going to attempt to defend that position or defend their status so they're basically going to be saying no you're mistaken I am NOT lower in conscientiousness and I am NOT lower in my information quality my behavior is not less integrated around intelligence and conscientiousness than what you're suggesting and in fact you're wrong and I'm right okay so that's almost certainly the reaction that you're going to get up the other other side that's going to be the unconscious status defense mechanisms that are going to be elicited by any kind of advice that you're going to give now the so that's you think mistakenly a what's what's trippin inside the heads of our questioner here and the heads of anybody that's in this situation is going to be the notion that you have information that they do not have and that they will recognize that you have information that they don't have and that they will be relieved and happy and excited to have been enlightened and therefore it will raise your esteem in the village that they will signal to others your wisdom and your intelligence and their gratitude for the fact that you enlightened them okay that's what your Stone Age brain is thinking because that's what you believe to be the case and so that's what you so you're being lured in by instincts that what I call is what I call the teaching gene so this is a major reason why humans dominate the earth I mean there's probably ten probably listed ten things that we could say that or that are responsible for human world domination but one of them certainly is the fascination with teaching teaching is a way that we demonstrate to the village that we have value to the village because we knew things that people in the village didn't know okay so probably nothing tickles the instinct of people more today let's let's face it the pleasure trap and its impact for example not just on health but more importantly on weight is the single largest factor in self-esteem mating success self-confidence in this arena in other words is it basically it is the number one personal goal of the Western world for God's sakes so as a result if you believe sincerely that you have the answer and you've done enough looking into it that you're confident you're very confident that you're correct then it would you know we can just see the teaching gene rubbing its hands in glee just waiting for the opportunity to enlighten somebody who is mistaken okay and what should be on the other side of that since we are laying down the Goldin stepping stones to them getting out of this terrible dilemma that they've been in for years or decades that they should be in fact kissing us all over our faces and our back end because we enlightened them and showed them the light now so point is is that this is not going to happen they are not going to recognize that you're the Messiah they're going to have instincts that recognize that you are disagreeing with them in their position and that they have heard from authorities don't think that they came up with this idea out a whole cloth out of thin air now they listen to an authority and they believed in my authority so now who are you okay so it's one thing if you're T Colin Campbell and you say to your to your little niece listen Sarah let me explain how the facts of life to you but what if we're just a regular person you'reyou're actually contradicting some person's authority figure that they have they looked at it F and it probably wasn't the first authority that they listened to they listened is probably a several and a few and probably had some friend there's that turn them on to this and then they bought into it they've got you know quite a bit of confidence that they're right and when you contradict them they're not going to believe you at all so this isn't you telling everybody listen the rattlesnakes are behind the red rock over there at the turn of the river don't go over there okay it's like it's clear that that this is true to you and you can tell them and they'll believe you and they'll be grateful because they're like wow I was just going to walk over there get some peaches but now I'll be careful okay they would be grateful for information that valuable this feels like it's information that valuable and it is however it's not going to be believed and it's going to be perceived as a status seeking threat and they're going to defend themselves and you're going to wind up in an argument and now it's now we've got blood in the water and we've we've got a disturbed steam dynamic between two people and now you're bitter because they're not giving you the credit you deserve and now they're bitter because you're looking down your nose at them and now we're disagreeing and it's Emes okay so my attitude is opt-out which is what this person is doing and if you feel enormous ly compelled first of all anybody that you told listen the answer your diabetes start eatin pasta and potatoes and vegetables and get rid of the cheese and the pork okay the odds of them being able to do that successfully approach zero so they're not going to do it anyway okay so just get it out of your head that you just laid down the golden stepping stones now you're going to get a bunch of credit for it because you didn't lay down anything they're not going to believe you they're not going to do it and even if they did believe you and they tried to do it they won't do it so now it's not going to work and now they look bad because they didn't follow through on your prescription it's a mess any way you look at this thing it's a mess so here is the better suggestion if you can't keep your mouth shut this is how you'd say it you'd say you know that I'm kind of in this health thing and I'm kind of into it and you know there's there's a book that talks about this like with a diabetes Neil Barnard's book for example you know and I and this is what I would say very important I would say I'm not sure these guys right about everything but it seems to work for some people you might want to give it a try sometime that's how I would do it okay that way if they and I'd say you might want to give it a try sometime not you might want to give it a try like next week and then you can report to me in four weeks how you're doing ah no this is an interesting book I've looked into it I read part of it seemed to make some sense you know apparently a lot of people have some success with us not sure he's right about everything but hey you might want to try it sometime that's what I would do okay and that way you you've sensitized them to the possibility that there may be another alternative way of doing this that they hadn't considered but you haven't done it anyway that's threatening in any way that indicates that you know more than they do or that there's an answer and that their answer that they're pursuing is incorrect that's how I would do that and those are all the hosts of considerations that go into my prescriptions as you can see it's pretty deep it's pretty complicated in other words there's a lot of reasons why I am super quiet and careful okay and I you know hey listen I've been I've been at this thing for forty years and I have upset a lot of people okay but I probably upset my last person before my 40th birthday so I doubt that there's anybody in the last 20 years that I have irritated with this information right why because I because I lost so many of these hands you know in the first 20 years of doing this so this is uh yeah I've got a lot of social scars on my back from people that I have said and threatened in you know relationships that I disturbed because I was following my instincts you know right down the line and really being completely honest and open and and saying listen I just got to tell you you're go ahead and down the wrong direction this is the right way to go okay and guess what a PhD and back big-time academic credentials and big-time affiliation with big-time authors and this written that wasn't enough okay so therefore if it wasn't enough for me if I never pulled this off successfully I don't think the odds of anybody's eye pulling this off or are high so be humble lead with humility and lead with humility about the quality information open it open them up to the possibility and then that's it and we're done holiday advice yeah thank you yet right on time every way yeah meeting with family and friends yeah yeah dr. loud to the to the people who might say that they don't feel guilty or that that that that in addition to doing for status they also have a little voice in their head that says that can imagine that when that person finally gets sick and or gets a stroke or something that they say well you know this information why didn't you say something sooner to them yeah what do you say to those people well let's keep in mind let's back up for just a minute people spend a fortune coming to the mcdougal program or to engine two they spend less going to a place like true north or Bascom escape they read books they they listen to shelf it chef AJ's you know endless you know relentless cheerleading and support and yet they struggle these are highly motivated totally convinced committed individuals okay so let's keep in mind that it isn't even remotely the case that the difference between them succeeding and failing was you saying oh listen well I just really got to tell you the information this is what you should do it's like that even d mmit Lee the statistical odds have been taking and running with it and that being the difference between success and failure in their life is like less than one percent and so chill out give yourself a break and if you're if you're dying a guilt you know seventeen years from now when somebody dies of a heart attack but you know at seventy eight because they you know they didn't turn their life around when the first one came at 61 and their diabetes started then then go to a brain surgeon and have them take a laser and laser out the guilt chip that's the problem excellent and I'm not sure my health insurance was bad but I can she all right all right all right we got alright next question oh good alright doc just gonna add in that case - it's not as if you've been you know you know the the answer that dr. Lisle is given to that question does not stop it doesn't it doesn't mean that you're sitting on your hands and not leading by example that whole time so the information is still available to them in the form of the life that you're living so they're perfectly capable of of watching you and you're thriving and you show up to holidays and they see that you're eating differently than they are and if they're motivated and they run the CD they can ask you about it and God knows you know people are going to be happy to tell them for all the reasons that Doug just outlined but it's you're you're not preaching you're not putting them into this trap where they're going to feel status threatened you're just you're sitting there with the information on demand as as the basked or so it was all that you could do you would never have put them in a better position by hitting them over the head with it and shoving it down their throat so it's it's you don't have to hide it from anybody which I sometimes people will you know hear this advice and that's what that's how they interpret it you just are not preaching it mmm like I needed to do it because this new movie they came out game changers is a I've watched it several times already and I've had to I've had to battle my own and intuition to try to you know preach it tell you know friends and other people that that are in my life besides patients here so so yeah no thank you oh good alright our next question dear doctors I am a 28 year old male over the last six months I have lost 30 pounds on a high carbohydrate low-fat ketogenic diet maybe that's a typo but I struggled with weight for years prior to this my previously normal lipid profile is unchanged I'm impressed with the data behind a Whole Foods plant-based diet but felt that this wasn't something I could stick with long term I've read in the pleasure trap strategies for telling others to buzz off but I still don't like the social implications of being a young male vegan area long curtain do you have any long-term concerns for being on this diet and would you recommend it for anyone hmm yeah you a couple of different questions in there it sounds like there's some questions about the validity of the diet and the long-term health implications of the diet but also some of the social implications and I think the you know when when someone is concerned about the social implications of being young male vegan a lot of that is because of the reputation that vegans have for this pushy preteen that that we've been talked about and and so it's just kind of an along the line to the last question there's absolutely no reason to make what you're eating your identity you know if you're if you're not going into veganism primarily out of its some sort of ethical motivation and there are people who do that that's that was my first entry into this world was was an ethical justification for avoiding animal products that's one thing and some people desire to hitch their identity to that because it's part of their sexual display to the world and that's fine like that if that's what you're doing and that's the business that you're in there's absolutely nothing wrong with that but if that it gives you concerns or you don't want to be associated with that identity there's nothing about eating this way that requires you to put new bumper stickers on your car or to announce to everybody that you're you're vegan or even to announce that anyone that you're plant-based you're just a you're just a person who eats more healthfully you eat more whole natural food and if if it's not something that you're comfortable with for the rest of your life you know going 100% plant-based there's you know very little if any evidence there's any substantive difference between a 100% plant-based diet and a merely 100% plant-based diet that includes a little bit of animal food you know as long as you're avoiding dairy in particular which is the one thing that we're sort of really trying to steer people away from but we're essentially we're trying to mimic a true ancestral diet which contrary to many of the claims of the paleo people is not a giant hunk of meat with a sprig of parsley but it's a primarily plant-based diet with a smattering of animal food from time to time when you can get it if that's something that you value and you don't want to give up the health implications of that are pretty minor compared to a really perfect entirely plant-based diet this again is assuming that you're not you're not going vegan for ethical reasons which is a separate thing so I I would separate out that whole that whole question and you know release yourself from that obligation to make any big pronouncements about any big dietary changes you're just trying to eat more healthfully you you know you don't owe anybody an explanation about your diet and you can just really downplay this as much as needed and as far as long-term long-term concerns for a whole food plant-based diet there really are none other than you know you might you're going to want to supplement with b12 most people regardless of what sort of diet they're eating should probably be supplementing with b12 but that's that's really it this is overall certainly the the healthiest diet for pretty much everything that would fail anybody so yeah in general I think we would recommend it to pretty much anyone who had would be seeking a big dietary change but with the caveat that you know a little bit of animal food is not a deal-breaker in this case fascinating all right well we have a caller who's been on hold for a couple minutes so we'd like to welcome caller welcome to the show what's your name where you're calling from I'm calling from Palm Springs California I heard my name is chef AJ oh yeah well thank you you know you you mentioned I'm a cheerleader but I don't feel like a cheerleader around the holidays why do I get so depressed at Thanksgiving what is it it's not just me what about the holidays make normal people sad hmm that's that's a doctor question well who knows I'm sad because there's a lot of money that's going to go out yeah well so I got I got a little a lot of little people that I need to give money to so they can buy me a present yeah I think that I think that certainly holiday time has we'll call call into relief some interesting things about our histories and the state of our relationships with maybe family members and friends etc that can be uncomfortable there can be some distances that have been put up and either physical distances where we miss people or psychological distances where that remain distant and therefore we can feel sort of unconnected from our pack more than we might normally so I think those are maybe some of the reasons for that but aside from that there's there's no in principle reason why holidays should should be difficult they're in theory there's supposed to be a joyful time the remember the Harry Met Sally Harry would say yeah I've just try to get through for Thanksgiving Annie the but you know everybody's life psycho says is there difference and some people love that time other people you know that it's a it's a time with with some consternation and some some loneliness and and some you know concern reflection on on relationships and their circumstances so yeah these are individual differences not only in personalities but also in personal circumstances so yeah it is what it is yeah repulsion in general like the cycle of the year you know I think people are kind of a little bit conditioned to tune in this time of year to wonder about you know today did I accomplish what I set out to accomplish am I where am I want to be in life am I in the kinds of relationships I would like to be in and very often for most people the answers to one or more those questions or no and so they're getting kind of you know feelings are always feedback their feedback from the nervous system that is letting you know whether you're on track or not and so there that is valuable information from your nervous system letting you know that you probably should make some changes to improve some of those situations in a lot of cases oh yeah that's good I like that a lot it's good thinking it's wonderful do you think that has anything to do with the fact that we're storing up for winter and trying to see if we have enough insurance to last us through the winter frankly turns on and I think that's possible I don't I don't think that's the holidays per se but certainly the weather changes are likely to cause a low-grade anxiety and then system behind that that I think is going to be natural for people so I think that that's is very likely to be the case that there's some some of that but the Ajay's got something else rattling around what else what do you think in AJ no I just wanted if you have any advice on how to you know get make them more choice because I don't think it's just me doctors I mean I hear from a lot of people that this time is just incredibly stressful yeah it's very people are also trying to you know there's a lot of a lot of display that goes along with this time of year too where people will get them do a very stressful situation because they're trying to orchestrate a big holiday or they're trying to make a big event up and so there's a lot of theme tied up with that so you know people particularly women will try to try to create a big event for the whole family and that they've invested a lot in that process and they have a lot on the line in terms of like what kind of what kind of a scheme they're expecting to get back from other people and then they very often are not getting that kind of a scene back from their family members which leads to conflict and I think all of this to some degree also is a little bit of a conditioned process you know people kind of come to expect that the holidays are going to be either joyous or depressing depending on their previous experiences and they kind of gear up emotionally for that sort of experience and and create situations that recreate and re perpetuate that that whole feeling scape but I you know spend the time with the people that you love the most to you're in the most positive esteem feedback loops with and try not to overextend yourself and spend too much money and get depressed about over indulging with food and having this you know feedback loop with the pleasure trap and the internal audience chirping away at you and all of these things you're going to get people down and so all of that is very understandable I think ok so spent it I'll say the people I love the most with these are the dogs so ok yeah that's what I there we go yeah actually Pet Sematary has a very more flowers than the regular cemetery [Laughter] [Music] that that's all just great stuff Jen I I really there's so much in there I wish we had a transcript of it there's so many points that that she hid there and and you know all those all those things reverberate across my history you know all that kind of stuff and it's it gets down to for me stripping it down to who are the very few people that I really enjoy spending time with and just spend time with them and let everything else go you know yeah it's the that's pretty that's the yeah it's how do you if you want to watch a hockey game you know on on Christmas go watch it you know what yeah that you that you would really have a raucous time with and this thing doesn't have to look like it's quote supposed to look it should look it should feel like it is that you want it to feel so that's how that's how we want to do it
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