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Episode 192: Group therapy, Plomian curse, Enlightenment trap, Being less critical
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dear dr. Lyle dr. Hawk what are your thoughts on group therapy what is the purpose if there is one and how would you apply evolutionary principles and esteem dynamics to such a session Wow well I'm gonna let Doug start on that one since he has more practical experience actually leading group therapy sessions and just has a little more wisdom probably to share on this than I do yeah except that I'm an old man now and I'm practically senile so it's been 30 years since I did any group therapy for a reason and that's that I I think as it's generally worthless there was a there was a time in way back in the day in the 60s and 70s where group therapy was suspected as being this great thing and there was a character by the name of Irving Elam who wrote a classic work that was the the classic of the field talking all about how essentially I don't know what it says in the book cuz nobody ever read it it was just one of these tomes that you were supposed to know about so I'm reporting now that I do in fact know all right the but the album's concept was that he was going to be put all the therapists out of business because group therapy you know obviously you can do ten people at a time and therefore it's a lot less expensive and people can treat themselves and all this sort of jazz now let's let's back the camera up for a second and try to understand what in fact therapy is so I don't I don't buy the notion the therapy is going back into childhood hurts talking all about them and then somehow getting remod by your therapist okay so this is this is the basic concept of dynamic therapy and I think it's fundamentally wrong fact I don't think it's fundamentally wrong I know it's wrong so now now we're gonna group therapy has that aspect to it it's a it's as if we're like little wounded souls and we're gonna get together and talk about our wounds now there's some interesting things that can happen in there but let's talk about fundamentally what I believe quote therapy is therapy is not in principle any different than any other experience in your life all it is is new information and so new information if it's going to be useful the we would say new ideas not new information because the new ideas can definitely be wrong and so if the new ideas are wrong and you buy it then you're more distorted and messed up than you were when you started which is what I believe happens consistently in psychodynamic psychotherapy and so there's a very psychodynamic slant in most group therapy procedures and so therefore I think it's basically a little a little cesspool of psychodynamic thinking from from you know marginally therapy wise educated half educated human beings that including the leader who doesn't know anything okay so this is the blind leading the blind through through the psychodynamic morass and coming out the other end probably not to much the worse for wear now but know no better it's very unlikely that any good has been accomplished that's because the the entire way of thinking about the problem is wrong that what what we've got is we've got distortions inside the person's thinking and very important competitive arenas that's why they're suffering and what they need is they need expert guidance and feedback in order to sharpen their ability to understand reality and start attacking the problems from a way that will lead to their superior achievement in those domains and therefore reduce the discrepancy between the experiences they're having now and what they think they should be having which is that discrepancy is what's causing their psychological angst so group therapy I think is in other words it's you know don't try to get your science for people magazine in other words this is just a bunch of people talking isn't going to get you more accurate in principle if the if the idiot next to you is 10 percent smarter than you then you could benefit from talking to the person ok but God help you if you're this if you're the most competent most hate together person in a group therapy room you're gonna get nothing but garbage and you're better off keeping your own counsel so that's what I think about esteem dynamics group therapy and all that dr. Hawk this this it seems like this would be right in your wheelhouse because in such a group therapy session people could be competing for who has the best trauma I want to get status from completely completely oh I've seen it happen I've seen it happen not only and my own group therapy experiences so I I as a more open human than dr. Lyle I have I've subjected myself to all kinds of psychodynamic crap over the years including all sorts of group therapy settings including group therapy settings of all kinds of misguided mystical let's let's rebirth ourselves and let's you know remember our past lives together and channel from higher sources from other realms and just all of this crap so yeah there is unbelievable trauma mongering that goes on there's my my history is worse than your history I'm more damaged than you are I have more wisdom on this problem because I'm more damaged than you are it's a it's a bizarre little hyper competitive realm that is mimicking just the exact kind of competitive distortion that you need to get away from in order to solve the real competitive problems that have brought you to therapy so yeah this is this is a really confusing environment for most people unless they they really know themselves very well and they know where they need to go but I have I have a sign above my desk that says that reminds me when I'm coaching people that just says therapy is learning it's it's learning it's new ideas new information like like Doug is sane and that information and those ideas can just as easily be really bad as they can be really helpful so you need to be discerning about who you're you're putting yourself in the path of as a teacher and as a coach so yeah generally a bad idea but you please you could get laid though oh my god one of the other group therapy extensive group therapy experiences I've had is in 12-step of course which considers itself a form of group therapy I went to one meeting where they said you know it's a it's the it's the god of your own understanding and God just could be could stand for group of drunks and so they all consider themselves like the advisors and there's a joke in 12-step that people engage in what we call 13th steppin they've worked the steps and now they're super fancy and they know more about this problem than the newcomers and they're gonna guide them very personally and they think so try to get laid in the process so yeah you've got all kinds of shenanigans in group therapy situations and I've just never seen them be more beneficial than working one-on-one with a good therapist absolutely is committed to the process of D distorting you not making you more distorted and more confused and and protecting their own lining their own pockets with rewarding your trauma process mmm-hmm so when people are competing for who has the most trauma I guess you wouldn't call them one-upping each other they'd be calling one downing each other yes it in in my dissertation and elsewhere it's a race to the bottom it really is it's it's how you know how much can we be competitive and how how much we've suffered Wow all right well our next question dear doctors help me beat my jeans my mother-in-law treats her for grandchildren all within one year of each other quite differently and I understand why but I could benefit from learning more information two of the grandchildren are from her daughter and the other two from her sons while I know she favors her daughter's girls more because they represent genetic certainty I'm a disagreeable person who really values fairness it's hard to comment or approach her when she treats them so differently let's not even begin to get into how many more clothes and toys and resources overall she gets for her daughter's girls it's also doesn't help that she believes that my daughter looks nothing like her son humorously I have even sent her pictures of my daughter and my husband at the same age to point out the similarities and she still refuses to see it is there a way for her to look at my daughter differently and allocate resources fairly well I think it just seems like a good word for you I mean this this is what this is what we sometimes would refer to as the palom e'en curse that this is a personality problem first and foremost I mean she's this question is is she's suggesting that the fairness is misallocated and that the preferences are a direct function of genetic certainty and there's some of that going on but really what's driving preferences for anybody whether it's grandchildren our partners or co-workers or anybody is personality compatibility and so this is there's there's really nothing to be done here the preference is gonna be the preference she's going to get along better with certain grandchildren certain certain children than others this is being driven by personality first and foremost and then the other the other piece of this is that she she doesn't this the fairness chip that you have this idea that you know your daughter-in-law needs to treat everyone equally it's completely misguided nobody needs to treat anybody anyway at all nobody owes anybody anything and you know the extent to which we can demand equality of conditions from anybody else who is not our sovereign self is always always a bad idea and it's being distorted through disagreeableness in this instance so I've I don't think there's much to do here there's certainly no special sauce and rewiring your thoughts or learning to love someone more than someone else and I it's it's all coming down to personality in the plumbing curse Wow yeah sorry no that's that's great cuz you can I can imagine you have a lot of people who get into these problems and they're they're finding out they're trying to be crafty and try to change it in some way and you're saying no that's not not really going to be possible to the extent that it's going to make anybody happy no not not really certainly not in a family dynamic like this you know sometimes you can you can have this sort of an inherent preference for one co-worker over another co-worker and you just you just like them better and that's just because you have better personality resonance and that that might be shifted the the see beyond that could shift if the deal with the different co-worker becomes a better deal but that's not going to happen with grandchildren so this is just the way it is and let's just accept that not everybody's going to be treated for her Chuck doug is doing a meditative pose who's the hippie now so just to just to unwind this a little bit more to what extent could this be potentially from something the daughters said to her a long time ago and now she's pent up a grudge or something like that and and should she essentially have a State of the Union about this I it's not gonna make much of a difference I mean disagreeable people are gonna be more prone to holding grudges in general so yes it could have it could have been you know initiated by that process but that was really just the getting-to-know-you process which would have unfolded the same way no matter whether that thing had been said that day or not and if they have a State of the Union there might be a momentary peace in the kingdom but it's gonna last three and a half minutes before there's some other insult that happens at the next holiday gathering and it's all just back into the mud once more so this is the state of affairs and it's yeah family dynamics are just as stable as any other relationship dynamics so I got a larger question then is an ideal relationship whether with a friend potential mate family member is an ideal relationship one words essentially very easy then there's virtually no major conflicts yes yes the secret of life sacred of life is to control your environment and your environment is primarily the people that you spend your time with that is what the environment is you know certain other things factor into it but mostly if the people that you're spending most of your time with and and absolutely just coming to terms with the fact that they are not going to change they are who they are it is where we call it Groundhog Day it's Groundhog Day its relationships are very stable equilibria of stable personality characteristics that it's just this it's gonna be the same pattern over and over and over and over again and so choose your groundhogs you know don't don't be friends with nasty feral grudge double lean ground dogs go for go for the sweet little cuddly ones like you wanna hang out with because that is your environment and your environment is your life experience mm-hmm and for people I've heard all my life Oh relationships require lots of work and we had to work a lot to get this relationship to where it is now complete this is all that does is Drive many self-help industry and line the pockets of many therapists who want you to come back into their office and pay them more money so you can continue to work on your communication work on your marriage like no this is obviously there can be there can be conflicts of interest there can be situations where external circumstances have stressed people out and there there really is something to work through but you're you're working through it in a united front to solve a problem you're not pitched against each other like that but you know a question we had last week with the the fellow and his ex-wife with the kids on the roof that were spying on the neighbor that that was never that was never a good groundhog you know that relationship they didn't have to they didn't have to work on anything that was they never had communication problems the communication was always very clear the priorities of each of the people in that relationship were always very clear they just didn't necessarily like them very much and they fought about them for a long time and then they finally decided to divorce much to the benefit of each of them so these things are this writing is on the wall with any relationship very early on you know the many observers of human nature over the eons who have said things like when people show you who they are believe them or you know people really tell you who they are and it's really true the groundhogs reveal themselves early and often and consistently and unwaveringly it seems to me that this whole explanation of oh it takes work is also a manipulation with strategy of disagreeable people that oh if you don't stick by me because I'm a disagreeable person then you therefore aren't hard enough worker you're not conscientious enough etc yeah yeah totally yeah yeah yeah it can absolutely be a way to keep people hooked into a relationship for expedient reasons and to continue manipulating and exploiting a nice agreeable and agreeable especially if that agreeable is conscientious they they're told that they need to work on something to make it better and they're gonna be like oh my gosh I need to work on it I need to devote myself wholeheartedly to fixing this because this person is upset instead of actually taking taking this relationship on its own terms and and you know this question started with you know grandchildren and daughters-in-law and family and it really just applies whether it's kind of chosen family or not it's there's no difference just because you happen to be related to someone or you have someone marry into the family these are all we are all individuals and we're all our own groundhogs yep fabulous you have anything else do I know that now that you've enrolled the question that's right disagreeable person that is these kind of questions make me disagree well obviously you have to work on something yeah all right doctor lads you want to add anything no that's good that's all marry go forward all right okay I am an avid listener over here in the UK recently you described the Enlightenment trap which interesting interest me greatly and I wondered if you believe that there was some degree to which meditation practice was a means of beating the genetic disposition for egoistic drives for status enhancement Robert Wright certainly seems to think so I recognize that there are apparently many examples of pseudo mead meditators displaying their practice conspicuously as a sort of status or virtues signaling attempt but do you believe there are some devotees who genuinely managed to reduce their egoistic drys I'm a theatre maker working on a show called Buddhism is it just for losers so if your thoughts on this topic would be very healthy this is a great question for Jen suspend I've spent a lot of time in this sort of arena and so and so this is the the last couple of years has been the time when you sort of reformulating a lot of your thinking so yeah good this will be entertaining yeah well I did yeah I spent many many years in various phases of the Enlightenment trap so the question is interesting because the questioner seems to understand at a fundamental level what the Enlightenment trap really is about but then this the sort of follow-up of our some meditators successfully silencing the ego or destroying the egoic drive like that that is what the Enlightenment trap is is doing is this idea that this pretension that we could we could get away with this notion that we don't that were not driven by the ego all we're driven by is what we would call the ego this there's not you can't turn it on or turn it off depending on how diligent your meditation practices there's no escaping the competitive reality of your life on planet Earth that is what you are here to do is to survive and reproduce and to secure all the spoils along the way that you were possibly capable of doing and this idea that we can somehow if we just have the right program or we just pay enough attention or we're just we we go into silent retreat just long enough and we really turn off that drive that we could do it nobody can do it people people vary in their ability to Bluff that they're able to do it but nobody can actually escape the the that the absolute compulsion that they like there's no there is no other point to human life there's no other point to life on earth in general so anybody who it's I want to know more about Buddhism is it just for losers because sounds like this questioner is working through a few of these different different conflicts and watching a lot of this in action and it's really it's very tempting because you know you can get into you can you're again like with the group therapy question when you're surrounded by people who are drinking the same kool-aid that you are and you're all talking about how you've transcended your ego ironically in somewhat of a competitive way I transcended more you go the guy I yeah I'm I'm even less attached to my outcomes and you what happens it's totally what happens I've seen it a million times and and so there's there's there's no escape it is a competitive rumble from start to finish Hobbes was right life is nasty brutish and short there's no escape and all we can do is kind of come to terms with where we are and maximize our enjoyment of the process by controlling our environment as much as we can and you know living living life according to really the serenity prayer and in surrendering this idea that we can that we have any control over the things that we can't control and the primary thing that we can control is the fact that life is inherently competitive whether you're in the Enlightenment trap or not and what you're saying dr. Lila and dr. Hawk is that we the only thing we really can control is our environment yes yeah absolutely yeah yeah that's empowering choose your people no all right dr. Lyle do you have a comment no that's good right on target let me ramble fantastic we love it well J dr. Hawk I don't know if you know but last week we got through two questions one was forty minutes and one was like 25 minutes the great guru can once you get started I always feel that you know the podcast I mean some some of these questions are it's occasionally worth really backing up and going from from zero with some of these that a lot of listeners are already pretty schooled up so we can kind of start at the at the grad school level and just jump right into these things I'm a kindergartener so please please don't skip it over all right do dr. Lao dr. Hawk I'm a professional woman in my middle years and I'd like to be less critical of people and other things I grew up in a home where both parents criticized me my siblings each other and everyone else except not themselves all the time with my father the object of criticism seemed to be whoever was out of the room at the time my mother was just openly critical when I was part of those one-on-one conversations with my father I actually felt closer to him even though I know he criticized me behind my back - it was as though he trusted me enough to share his real opinion about someone I still sometimes feel that way when someone bad-mouths someone else to me other contributing factors are that I'm a very analytical person who is not a pleaser by nature however I'm not extremely disagreeable and I'm in a job where I need to be critical and at times adversarial to succeed I've noticed that many people especially those living on the west coast are turned off by criticism and complaining I know that I sometimes have the same reaction of people who are extremely critical to I don't want to be cheerful in a phony way or be naively optimistic and I recognize that for anything to improve one has to take a hard look at a situation to accurately evaluate it but I want to be more accepting of people and situations or at least more guarded so that people are not put off by what I say or what I think well I think dr. Lyle is really the expert on this one I'm gonna I'm gonna punt this over to him it sounds like a it sounds like a personality problem that would be fit only for for dr. Lyles analysis yeah the once again what we see is the the theory that we're going to change and so so we don't see the concept here of how am I going to change my environmental circumstances and therefore improve my existence what we see is the question of how can I change me so that I can improve my functioning within the environment so once again we come back to personality which is we might call the Plomin pinata everybody's born with the plumbing pinata and when you break that thing open and whatever it is it's coming out [Laughter] yeah so the bottom line is here this person obviously as we as we hear her describe her upbringing and the parents it sounds like there's a lot of disagree ability in the gene pool sounds like the Apple didn't fall too far from the tree not you know obviously high functioning highly intelligent and doing fine in the world but certainly finds that that not too far away from her consciousness is a lot of criticism for other people this is because the way you think and thereby the way you feel and thereby the way you act are all emanating from the genetic code so you don't you don't choose what you think your your genes dictate what you think so your your thoughts are literally thoughts are are derivatives of the deep algorithm and judgments that are are built by you know gene variances and so you know the basic genetic code builds the this the species vision of how what it needs to value and in what way and then individual differences in how the the genes put together the different sort of colors and the bricks and the different the different nature of the proteins that can build those circuits those give rise to variance a''s and those variances are what we see like everybody has the ability to be critical of other people everyone does but the question is you know how much critical sauce got put in your soup that's in your pinata okay and so this person has a lot of criticism in her pinata it just is the way it is it's always gonna be that way and it sounds like she's managed it very well not managed to get tossed out of jobs and excommunicated from everybody but your possibility of changing you is zero okay and so you know if you if you want to figure out how to act nicer and maybe get away with that take an acting class go to group therapy there you go but no that's the name of the game we are each in one every one of us a plum and special and that's just what you are that's how it works mm-hmm so for people who are not happy in their lives it could be that their personality is distorted or that they're not being competitive in particular arenas well yeah unhappiness is going to be the result of a frustration when the the self has analysed where it believes it what it should be getting from reality and it knows that notices the discrepancy from what it thinks it should be getting versus what it is getting and so that can come from you know very pleasant nice talented intelligent people that have not yet obtained competitive stripes or competitive feedback in the esteemed domains so that they're unhappy so I've been unhappy many times in my life usually short-lived but not always and so and that unhappiness does is that's a signalling device to tell me that there's a discrepancy between what part one part of the brain its analytic chip is telling me that I should be able to do better than I'm doing and that then that discomfort or unpleasantness or depression or feeling of rejection or frustration or anger or jealousy or envy those feelings are feelings that are signaling devices to orient me to the to the apparent fact that there is time and energy that should be invested in improving my competitive standing in that domain and it's likely that that time and energy will be rewarded with increased likelihood of success that's associated with genes survival increases that's how the system is built ok but if someone is chronically unhappy and irritated that's that's what it is it's its own plumbing special we harp on this endlessly because it's really profoundly liberating like it's it sounds kind of depressing and fatalistic and it is kind of fatalistic and depressing but it's it's also very liberating because if the secret the most of these enlightenment traditions are telling you you know the secret of enlightenment is to not take things personally that's that's kind of the objective of all these all these meditators sitting on their cushions at all these retreat centers but really the only way I've ever found to not take things personally is not sitting on a cushion watching my thoughts or trying to get closer to God it's it's actually realizing that everyone's plumbing special everyone's got their little their little pinata and that is how they are and I'm sort of incidental to their life experience and they're just they're responding to me and I am modular I could be anybody they're just responding in a predictable way based on their personality and and likewise me too so it is it's very empowering and liberating yeah I mean the whole notion of enlightenment is its woven through this discussion tonight is the notion of enlightenment is that that you pass you and send the need to get a steam and so it's the notion of you're sitting on your cushion you don't care what anybody else thinks and it's just you in the universe this is actually fundamentally wrong the that's a that's a bluff the the truth of the matter is is that the secret of life is in the esteem dynamics between us and other people that we love that's actually the secret of life the secret of life is to have a life that is integrated with people that we really that because of who they are and who we are the interaction results in joy that is the secret of life so the secret of life is absolutely talk is about being high degree of discriminating taste and rejection of people the greater the potential yes yeah I'm just glad it only took us a hundred and ninety-two episodes to get to the secret of life tell your mother logged by begins tonight fascinating all right well we have a few more questions but it's probably gonna be a little lightning round so some quicker answers so just feel free to shout out the answer right there we go okay all right for us dating seniors do basic dynamics of romantic attraction to remain even though no childbearing potential exists yes all right moving on today lack of desire for producing offspring lead to apathy toward accumulating resources and achievements yes oh I got a story to tell so I got our friend Larry Oh God hi monster our mobster friend Larry Italian Jewish pops right who's Italian Jewish mobster is very married to lovely lady and really and actually you had dinner with him tonight by chance yeah so I see you got a nice dose and he and I had a conversation about 20 years ago where I was for the first time for some reason I was contemplating the possibility of not having children it was really the first time that that somehow had dawned on me like I was just starting to do well financially and I was wrestling over the notion of you know how expensive it would be to have children here in Sonoma County area it's expensive land and and so I was talking to Larry and Cheryl and it was out in their driveway Larry by the way is about 10 years older than I am so he's senior to me so he's a little bit like a big brother a big tough nasty brother that'll get everybody on the phone and get your money back so anyway so I'm so I was talking to them and they had decided not to have children and and I said you know I'm just getting this idea that you know maybe you know if I didn't have children I'd have all this money professor Larry looks at me he goes yeah [Laughter] there you go so anyway the answer the question is yes it's like what do you need the money for if you don't need the money to provision clan then you you need less depending on your your particularity leave the office early yeah I mean absolutely yeah and and thereby and if you obviously have offspring it has its own joys I call having kids have we call it I call it going to Rome there's nothing like Rome in it but if you but if you don't go to Rome then you get to visit a bunch of other places so it's a trade off and that's just what it is but there's certainly an upside and one of them is that you don't have to be quite so ambitious and quite so conscientious and it could be a little more self-indulgent and that is true it sounds good to me alright speaking of pair bonds why is it that men seem to get very uncomfortable discussing women's health issues or genitalia but women apparently don't feel uncomfortable discussing men's weight I'm uncomfortable at the question so I'm going to give that's a gym we sometimes get questions on the podcast that are reflective of just a little bit of distorted experience I don't I don't think that that is universally true at all I think you could find plenty of evidence to the contrary on both sides of that equation and this questioner is just having a distorted sample experience where they're around people who exhibit discomfort in one direction or another but I don't I don't think there's any evolutionary psychology reason behind it because I don't think it would be a consistent finding if we looked across the population it would it would all balance out mm-hmm and from my understanding to anybody who's disagreeable women or may a male or female wouldn't have a lot of discomfort around discussing things like this it's gonna interact with openness and particularly sexual openness and and but yeah that disagreeable willingness to kind of push the envelope and make people uncomfortable is is gonna drive a lot of that so yeah yeah all right Wales to weed out alright our final question why are more girls choosing to pursue careers in math and science open up a big can of it oh no this is good so I get to yeah Jen Jen is a is a woman that used to be a girl and it's a scientist so now we'll turn that over to her there's actually been a lot of research done into this question in Scandinavia in particular because it does seem like a little bit of a puzzle this is what social scientists love to look at puzzles you know what what explains this sort of seemingly paradoxical results and these Scandinavian studies what what they've done is that they've they've realized after tackling this for many directions and replicating it many times this is some of the most robust work done in social science is that you know if someone's someone's interest someone's career interests if we can if we can say that you know to a large degree their career interest is determined by personality by by their plumbing pinata and that there's some degree of their interest that's being directed by what we could broadly call the environment so you know they're the kind of school they went to or the just the socio-economic circumstances that they are growing up in and so what happens in especially in Scandinavia you've essentially controlled for the environment you have you've made the environment all that socioeconomic status and all of that access essentially equal across the population and so all that's left to drive preferences is personality so you see this paradoxical result where it actually maximizes the differences in personality and women are very broadly speaking more interested in people and men are more interested in things and so that's gonna translate into STEM careers math science careers you're just going to have more innate interest among men when you've controlled for these and for the fact that women would otherwise be be looking at that career as a way to equalize their income but now there are plenty of other ways to do so because they're they're facing equality of circumstance socially economically so the more equal you make things essentially the more you concentrate personality differences and that applies to career choices and everything else this appears to be such a controversial opinion like this makes perfect sense to me but I constantly read articles and discuss things with people maybe it's because we're in California but but that they say oh no that that's not true there's women and men are fundamentally not not different they don't like to think about an inherent gender binary they don't like to think about a lot of these things but this is this is where the evidence points us that on balance of course just like anything else when you're talking about population bell curves like this this says nothing about any given individuals so any given individual female could have just as much of rage to master passionate interest in a stem career and just as much interest in things and calculations and and you know that sort of impulse as the assumption of the male population on average it says nothing about individuals all it does is describe averages across populations that across the population of males versus females there are differences there's significant differences in a lot of areas and this is one of them yeah how could there not be so you know there's women come into the world with a 1/8 li massively increased investment in offspring so you would expect women to be massively more interested in babies which they are they're way more interested in young children on average early childhood education there's no comparison ok so men are way more interested in warfare derivative things you know football baseball basketball wrestling boxing kickboxing MMA there's no end to it Karlee taken out hockey this is super boring I need to go check on my dog No so there there you have it well you know I just love how how much we've covered in these last almost four years because I remember we really were very carefully going over this four years ago and now it's just like just saying it people can chug it down right by the way Jen informs me that her genes are somehow inside of her dogs I'm sure that they're absolutely I actually had a psychic tell me when I got my dog Motown so I've had four you know nearly eleven years so that was how long ago I talked to this psychic just to contextualise my woowoo history it was a while ago people she told me about mode Motown and I had shared every single one of my past lifetimes he played a role in every single past lifetime she was a very important spirit guide on my journey yes so that was that was why I felt so close to him not because my genes were in him which is clearly the truth good karma yeah yeah all right fantastic well we're done with the lightning round and it's a pleasure to have you both on as always and we will look forward to talking with you both at a future show great all right have a good night
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