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Episode 182: Enlightenment and Ego Trap, Trading w a Toddler, Keeping kids innocent
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dear doctor while I'm in the process of marathoning the podcast so forgive me if that's been addressed I'm wondering about how the ego trap might apply to people who have not been given reason for high expectations in a sense whether there is some interaction between the ego trap and the dunning-kruger effect of lower capacity individuals being less likely to recognize their own limitations the context which has prompted this is that I have a number of friends who come from difficult backgrounds for example a family history of mental illness or abuse poor decision-making relative poverty and very little work experience I found that they're generally unwilling to consider most basic employment options to alleviate their financial difficulties figuring that they are quote better than quote most realistic jobs and even enduring a great deal of debt to get dubious education credentials which most anyone with a critical eye can see are not going to simply leapfrog them into a high paying job especially given the lack of work history can the ego trap exists for those who don't have much outside of steam coming in is it a form of deferral of failure what say you dr. Lisle interesting you know this person's you know circling around and looking for some correlations there and trying to find trying to make sense of a puzzle so we can we can instead go right to the heart of this and that is that we can see in their their discussion of who these people are that we see some some mediocre genes okay so we're seeing some when they talk about mental Hil illness and poverty and the person's background and poor decision-making etc in the family well what are we looking at we're looking at some disagreeable low conscientious genes and so disagreeable low conscientious genes would would tend to feel like you know they're too good to get their hands dirty and work at Starbucks or McDonald's or wherever is that they need to dig themselves out of trouble and they would also be suckers for get-rich-quick schemes various kinds quote education that would would supposedly put you in a position to to leapfrog and so this is a you know that's what you got so it's really what you're what you're watching is you're watching the genes of the parents now play out in the next generation it doesn't mean that these people are bad people and they aren't worthy of being this person's friend it just means that when you when you're staring at some decision making a bit as puzzling you what you're really looking at there is you're looking at the I'm too good for this is not an ego trap it's actually a disagreeable inference you know bubbling out of the gene pool with a relative lower end or somewhat lower conscientiousness and that combination essentially leads to what you and I would call entitled okay and so that what we're really seeing is an entitlement process going on and eventually they will if they're an attractive female they'll wind up married to somebody with some degree of means and agreeableness is willing to take on their their sinking ship and if they are a male they're going to wind up a good chance of bankruptcy somewhere in their future and some major humbling and basically in an irritation and frustration about why you know the the City of Gold has not approached them and put their name up in lights so this is what's going on and this is also dependent upon the age of the people they're also being calibrated and so disagreeable low conscientious people are not in helpless circumstances there's a beautiful thing out there in the world called reality and that they are capable oftentimes of learning through rash rather harsh experience that that maybe they weren't quite as entitled as they thought they were her so that's actually what we're observing here is we're looking at the next iteration of the same genes that that led to the previous generations you know tribulations fascinating so yeah I just took one phrase from this question and assumed that it was about the Enlightenment trap and that phrase was figuring them better than most realistic jobs can you help me understand where I went wrong with my distortion thinking yeah enlightenment trap is actually is actually a the notion that that we that somehow we've transcended the need to compete but we don't really care about outcomes so this is the Buddha Buddhist that's sitting on a hill somewhere hoping somebody's watching him or her while they'd beat a drum and what they're pretending is that they're fully absorbed in the beating of the drum and that they have really no other or better yet they're in the lotus position that they carefully practice and they're in a silk robe and okay they are birds right levitating if you look really carefully right so what this is what this is is the Enlightenment trap is the the attempt to sell oneself or others on on the delusion that one has transcended the need to compete for esteem and so that's what that is so that's not what's going on here so what's going on here is the person is feeling like they should be getting far better than what is being offered to them and so they're they're susceptible to get rich quick schemes they are don't want to take the work that would help etc and so when we look at that will we will we sniff instead we also aren't looking at the ego trap it isn't that they aren't willing to compete they just feel like that that in other words they're not standing on the sidelines and not trying they're actually trying things but they're trying things that are very likely to be ineffective and so they're they might be applying for jobs that they can't get we're going to school that's going to theoretically land them in in the riches which is it isn't going to because it's you know this this fancy program that came on on late-night cable along with Tom vu telling you that's a good day to could be rich okay so on so yes this is not the ego trap and it's not the Enlightenment trap this is just straight entitlement and so the genes that drive entitlement are disagreeable in low conscientiousness and that's precisely what came out of their gene pool and it's what's sitting inside of them in this case hopefully they won't they miss next generation won't be as impoverished and abusive and and cornered possibly as a previous generation as the world is now you know literally twice as wealthy as it was when they were growing up so the parents you know we're a little bit more cornered and frustrated and had less impulse control then then perhaps the next generation will because the circumstances are going to probably be quite a bit more benign but that doesn't mean that the person won't sort of suffer some hardship and have to deal with some tough lessons but this is just direct entitlement out of out of gene variation fascinating ok so it would it be fair to say that in the Enlightenment trap people feel that they have transcended competition where's an ego trap they've been given higher expectations they that they think that they can achieve therefore the best move is to quit essentially so right they're both not acting okay yeah I would also just point out the Enlightenment trap is is an option of non-compete and so very often these things are in other words the ego trap can lead someone to the Enlightenment trap so an option from within the ego trap is to to instead of instead of just saying hey I'm choosing not to compete right now so you can't judge me because I'm not trying we go one step further if we're narcissistic enough and we say I'm not trying but that's because I've transcended time I don't want to have a best-selling book okay I don't want to have I don't want to you know achieve a degree I'm beyond us so I'm just sitting on a mountainside beating a drum and you can look and see that that I I have achieved some such type of mysterious internal fulfillment that is beyond you so it's a it's opposed and it's a it's an ego trapped narcissistic pose that is gotten a dollop of delusion and acting over and above the ego trap itself it's fascinating because for for a little bit I think I found myself in this little light enlightenment trap because with the podcast I was like why do we need professional quality audio when dr. Lisle is just speak in Jemez every week so let's see I'm not quite sure that that I'd have to think about that the UH I think slightly slightly different man yeah yeah are we beyond the need to compete yeah you might have it might have been tickling some of those same circuits interesting right it was a full-blown case yeah now we have better odds right but right really now hey glad we got it yeah there you go yeah it's kind of interesting when when you smell this when you smelly the ego trap or the Enlightenment version that when you when you actually comment these folks with a possible value proposition or opportunity watch them reach right their hand right into the cookie jar trying to get it okay so in other words they they have they feel like they can't get a decent job so now they've shaved their head and become a Buddhist monk because they they can't get a job but then if you say actually you know what I got a brother-in-law that has a firm and they do they you know people of your background they pay them really well and and I believe that I could get you in there oh really but the the pretense goes away in two seconds and so this is this tells us that that the Enlightenment trap is indeed a pose and you know sometimes it's uh oppose someone can can basically defend a lack of achievement indefinitely behind such oppose it's an interesting way to live but sometimes it's the most comfortable place for some people to live it's fascinating because in the Stone Age or at least in a place that wasn't as modern and developed as this one where you had to get me there was no choice yes these traps resisted but they were short right it would have lasted for 2 3 4 10 20 years right no they wouldn't last for more than a week so the ego trap could could not could not last very long at all and neither could any enlightenment because that's not going to last either so these are the fact that people can spend considerable amount of time in what is in fact a quietly distressing non-compete situation is you know a derivative of the modern environment without a doubt fascinating all right yeah ok so our right question is yes there's the phone dear dr. Lisle I run higher in the high I run higher on the disagreeable scale and as an aged 40 year old man I have a two-year-old and another baby on the way being a dad is teaching me that I have to constantly fight my disagreeableness because I'm having to give more of myself to my kid and can't sustain trying to trade at 7525 with him my brain keeps telling me I'm getting a bad deal with my kid but I know I signed up for this and need your help defeating my genes I know you don't have kids but what tactics or advice do you have for someone to at least fake trading at less than 75 25 with a toddler well you're really not trading with the toddler you're you're trading with your partner so it's about the enormous time and energy that that's going to go into child raising particularly early so the that's who you're trading with and I would say that in general what you want to do as much as possible at those times is again again people's people's resources are enormous ly different from person to person but that is not a time when you should be trying to save money okay that's a time when you pay for whatever help you can get to reduce some of your burdens so that you and your partner can get some time off so there's some a responsible neighbor kid that can give you an hour here and there for $12 you give it to them the complete with cell phone numbers and you don't even have to go far but just get away so one of the things that you want to do is to do what you can you know and what what your partner's willing to do in terms of outsourcing as much as possible the now so that's one thing so every every device it's possible diaper changing robots things like that boy which whatever it is that you can do to reduce that sounds like a fun invention yes you know in terms of being organized and getting help with respect to food preparation in the household getting you know a maid once a week if you can afford it etc whatever it is that you can do to reduce life's burdens because it's going to be you know it's going to be hard sledding for a while and that's just that's the way it is the that's why the the females are so inherently sensitive to try to figure out how much the male is into them before they they go out a lot of sexual intimacy because sexual intimacy resulted in kids and kids resulted in this okay and and this means whoa what a tremendous workload it's useful also maybe to know on the side said that it probably is useful to know that that your your toddler and what your toddler is going through yeah they aren't they aren't having experiences imprinted on their brains we don't have to worry about if we number one yell of them or number two let them squawk and be unhappy for a while and walk away there there's no damage being done okay so there's a there's a hyper reactivity to this that's due to the fact that squawking toddlers often meant predator or trouble or injury you know I'm saying that would be serious in the Stone Age so as a result the we are naturally sensitive to the screeching noises that they make it's amazing how much noise a two-year-old can make and that not only that they can that they will and whenever I've heard it I'm reminded of that so that's a that's an animal but was designed by nature to just scream when they were threatened in order to get their parents attention it's not so great when they're right next to you on the plane okay and all the after they're under no threat whatsoever all right they're just they just want something they they want a some some candy so the point is is that keep in mind that your lack of perfect performance and ability to hold your temper and your etc and the end the fact that you may not even like what you're doing very much none of this is causing any damage whatsoever so that's useful that can take a little bit of pressure off that and secondly do what you can to reduce everybody's burdens with your checkbook and that that's that's what you're going to want to do during these early years where you are where you're cornered and really overburdened for in terms of time and energy expenditure that's what I would tell you fascinating well I got a question about this you know trauma being imprinted on the brain and whatnot yeah so someone a friend of mine just sent me a video I think it was yesterday night and it's a picture it's a video of a dad trying to feed his child some food and the child is being being you know doesn't want to eat it and not not comply so the dad pretends to feed the feed the same food to the kids stuffed animal and he says yeah my little little stuffed animal and he he says do you want some and then he shakes the head of the Mickey Mouse just like the kid says no I don't want to me something takes the Mickey Mouse puts it on a table and then beats the hell out of the the stuffed animal he pounds it on the table with his fist and then he right away takes a spoon of the food and gives it to his kid again kid just know no complaints just says right away eats it so it's uh I just wanted to know because you know I've shown it saw this video like I looked it up on YouTube just to see the comments just to see what people were saying and sure there was two camps first camp was the hilarious like no problem here this is just funny and the other camp was oh my god you traumatized the kids for life inspector right so what was going on there doctor wow that's really an amazing video and I'm surprised they got the effect so how old was the child do we think I think they were like maybe three years old they were eating at least maybe two or three yeah no I would say three because you're you need machinery but it's interesting because the stuffed animal isn't too believable so that's a very interesting window development where where somehow somehow the kid half you know seems to believe that the stuffed animal is somehow real and also has the capacity for making the inference that that through observational learning that they would somehow be proced so I don't think that the child was making the same inference that all of us think that it's making okay so we as adults look at that look at that process and we're inferring that we are inferring that that oh the means the kid learns if he doesn't eat the thing he's going to get the hell beat out of them I don't think that that's what's taking place there at all I think that actually to the extent to do this videos in fact authentic which who knows they might have had 15 takes before they got this the but to the extent that it's authentic it's probably more the following that it's probably more that the parent is displaying a bizarre instability and and therefore is problematic and the kid is smart enough to realize whoa somebody's really upset okay and so if they're going to make a request I'm going to comply because you machinery in there to know that if someone is really really upset that's not the time to try to get a confession out of them so that that's what that's what I think is really happening I don't think that there was an observational learning inference about this and yet we as adults we see it and we you know we could either be horrified or we could consider hilarious one of the other I I'm in the hilarious camp okay yeah yeah but but I don't but I actually don't think what is happening is what we think is happening that's what I believe and fascinating ah yeah I think if you were to if you were to actually interview the child cleverly and to try to see if they were thinking that they were going to be hit if they didn't eat I don't think that that's what I don't think they were having that fear I think their fear was is that that dad was going to be all bent out of shape and upset and they passed on that they didn't want that to happen fast in it yeah so I guess with these YouTube videos sometimes they go viral and then you got other people uploading the same video but with their situation so so there was a lady who have uploaded this video doing the same thing and she beats the hell out of the the teddy bear the kid ride away eats the food and right as she feeds them the food she starts last she's like it worked it worked and then of course the yeah uploads the video so just a fast anything I'm going to post it in that Facebook groups who can all you know argue about it mmm so yes bizarre people yeah well they got really likes and views especially for me that's for sure all right all right we got all right our next next question dear doctor law what why do what I'm sorry the what kinds of adult things should generally be kept from kids say 8 to 12 years olds is there any harm in letting them have unfiltered access to the Internet for example as long as we make sure they aren't getting the drugs or risk risk of pregnancy in other words to what age should children be kept fairly innocent if at all and why that's a really good question and it's not one that I've really thought much about the what what comes to mind for me is the notion that that what modern you know digital media is is its supernormal stimuli and so supernormal stimuli isn't necessarily a bad thing so you know hearing blended voices with great music I don't think that's doing anybody any harm the so and we're watching a movie that's a great story with great actors and actresses against beautiful scenery I don't think that's a bad thing the however you could you could argue from legitimately that watching hours and hours of television might not be the greatest life experience for kids now I don't think it's damaging them in any way but I do think it's it's essentially you could see how they could get roped into it by virtue of the super normal processing that's going on there so Gilligan's Island is you know entertaining and what if we could have it over and over it again without any advertisements and we've got some ten-year-old watching it over and over just hour after hour after our of this thing yeah what we might say is okay this isn't damaging but I'm not so sure that this is really the optimal life experience and this brain wasn't designed by nature to be you know having this context of supernormal stimuli hit it and I think it's better to shut the TV off and go play with your friends outside I think that's a better life experience and so I believe that's true and so in that same way I don't I don't think it's a great life experience for some kid to be you know staring at the opposite sexes or same-sex as body parts naked on the internet when they're 9 years old you know fascinated and and then with all the supernormal stimuli and all the weird stuff and you know etc I just feel like no don't do that go outside go play with your friends I think that's a better life experience for them and so so that's that's what I believe and so if I had children I would I would actually insulate them from large doses of supernormal stimuli in that way so the the there's been times when you know I haven't had a had a television in my house and I have to tell you those were excellent times where there was an interior quiet to the whole thing then when I wound up having kids live in my house it comes back and etcetera and it's okay it's not it it was never a disaster but uh my my opinion on this doesn't have to do why do you have an opinion I don't think that any of its damaging I just think it's I think it's a less optimal path for a person's existence and so that's that's what I would tell you and I and I think that a you know a 20 year old has a lot going on a lot of demands and looking to be to be more you know has to has to compete in the real world in a number of ways where an eight-year-old doesn't and so I'm not so sure that and also a 20 year old you're obviously not going to be able to have an influence over the 20 year old super Noll normal environment in a way that you could an eight-year-olds so I don't see any reason not to impose some reasonable restraint on those I think it's in the kids best interest in terms of their life experience that's what I would do but I wouldn't fret it if I was if I felt like it was too much trouble and I just let him go I don't think that your kid is going to wind up pregnant drug addict or you know a psychological deviant because they had access to a bunch of you know really adult level things and and adult level materials that way earlier then would be reasonable for them to do so that's not going to do any damage but it sure as heck not going to do them any good and I think that there's better places for their nervous systems to be directed at more ecologically appropriate stimuli and therefore to have a life of an eight-year-old when they're an 8 year old I think that's a better way to go it's surprising how many opinions you have that my parents share because they wouldn't let us watch TV at all when we came home it's like either go do your homework or you go play no no I Eevee and catching up and it was funny because like in the playground there was always a few kid that wouldn't let you in there no in there you know social circle unless you knew certain TV shows and that was like their their little display for everybody so it's always fascinating not my parents like so what you go good go get a kid right good for them well done all right what all right we go well speaking of parents and children yeah our next question your dr. Lyle my mother was or is working as a kindergarten teacher for about 40 years and in her last year before retirement she had let's say has some issues with a particular child basically the child was known to be extremely annoying most of the time and on this one day my mother snapped and slapped the kid's face I'll be it softly of course she told all of her colleagues and the mother of the child about the incident and got mixed responses her co-workers knew the kids personality and were hence very understanding even the mother of the child told her not to worry about it too much this all happened shortly before summer break so they didn't see each other for a longer period of time however my mom could not take it that easy and sank into a deep depression to make things worse the mother of the kid changed her mind over the summer and proceeded to freeze my mom out of the kindergarten which essentially she did achieve since my mom herself couldn't live with the fact that she hit another woman's kid since the incident she went to a psychologist and a psychiatrist who prescribed her antidepressants since she was dealing almost suicidal over this accident and had and wouldn't have sudden outbursts of tears my question now is which underlying evolutionary mechanisms made her feel like this was the worst thing she could have ever done in her life or do you believe that other factors were influencing the severity of this case yeah what's what's happening there is is the obviously the guilt mechanism is going off so the guilt mechanism is a has been designed by evolution to to make sure that you don't get kicked out of the group so if you do something bad and they catch you or either you're suspected and your attitude is no I didn't okay then you're signaling no guilt it's a very risky gambit because if you if they're convinced that you are in fact guilty and you're not evidencing any indications that you're that you feel guilty then that's suggesting a deep level of low conscientious disagreeable ie sociopathy and that's likely to get you kicked out of the group so most people don't do that so if they did something kind of bad and then they tried to get away with in they get confronted they're going to have a huge amount of guilt or some you know commensurate appropriate amount of guilt about it they will show that in their presentation and that presentation of and the experience of the guilt is a protective mechanism for them to essentially throw themselves on the mercy of the group the group can understand why it is that there was a conflict of interest between self and group everybody understands this so the and when you display the guilt behind whatever self-serving thing that you did then the group says okay now you know five lashes for you in other words some kind of a penalty of whatever whatever severity seems appropriate and then then you have kind of paid your dues and you're back in the group and the guilt was a critical element in in selling you to the group that you were are not in fact a disagreeable low conscientious sociopath because if you were they would be very vulnerable they can't turn their back on their little on their little sack of nuts without worrying about whether you're going to steal it okay and so this is why the guilt mechanism exists in people is it it's a protective mechanism for group membership now so your mom does this quote terrible thing so she so she taps this kid on the cheek apparently that we can all recognize that if in 40 years of school teaching and 1,200 children through her tutelage one of the twelve hundred gets it gets a sheikh tapped we know who that was okay so so such such an intense arises and this is of course no no consequence at all in terms of this child this child will be hit many times by many people for many deserve ADRA's ins okay so this is a no concern there now your mom however has you know what or that the mother has walked over a line and as a result of that she feels guilty and so what does she do she goes and reports it okay hyper conscientious nutcase that she is she goes and does this and and then she judges the village feedback and the village feedback isn't too bad but then it turns out I'm a little confused about the mother of the child freezing the mom out of the kindergarten that's a bizarre set of prose there that doesn't make any sense to me the mom is the kindergarten teacher the the person's mother is shouldn't be related to the school I don't know how this transpires did they go to the principal to the lodge complaint did they get the mom put on you know some kind of probation status or leave of absence you know apparently something happened on an official basis and the official people involved cited with the child over the teacher in some fashion and whatever that fashion was the the mom's guilt displays were not enough to stop this thing from happening so in some fashion she got halfway kicked out of the village in some some way now the so the question I think that the person is asking is why do his mom have this sort of acute self flagellation process going on and the reason is is that because she's hyper conscientious she is she is attempting to send an extremely loud signal that says sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry never happen again never happened again never happened again never happen again that's what she's doing and so bye and because she's hyper conscientious what as we talked about whenever you're at the extreme of the bell curve you're operating under distortion so if you are very open you are under estimating the risks of that openness and you are likely to wind up in trouble if you are very closed you are going to miss tremendous opportunities and they could be the difference between life and death you could be you you know you're not open enough to get out of Nazi Germany and time even though you had the money and you had the awareness troubles okay you just you just couldn't bear leave in your little neighborhood and so oops you know you're more wacky less responsible generally cousin you know wound up in Switzerland got out in time so a lack of openness can be just as deadly as too much openness either one of them is a distortion and and therefore increasing your propensity to make errors small and catastrophic so in this case your MA the mother is a hyper conscientious individual we can tell that by her reaction to this whole thing suicidal ideation for God's sakes what suicidal ideations are is that they are advertisements to the village that we are testing our value to the village like if I killed myself what would you think then okay and what that is is that to test to find out whether or not the the gene pool makes an inference that that we are better off with you or without you so what we should have gotten and she should have gotten out of that was what do you kidding mom are you out of your mind no your this is you're nowhere near being kicked out of the village euro course far more valuable to us than any transgression was a negative okay so this is this is what's transpiring here out of this individual is the market test of her her contribution to the village and in order to and so what we're seeing is a vast over estimation of her her concern that she is not displayed an appropriate enough amount guilt to reassure the village that the risk factor to all their little you know nasty sociopathic children you know is minimal okay so that's what's actually taking place here so this is the kind of thing that you will see in in various dimensions when people are operating on far ends of a bell curve somewhere and they are therefore very very error-prone yeah I would say that the the one obviously the one extreme that reduces your air proneness is very high intelligence so very high intelligence can can mitigate mistakes all over the chessboard elsewhere but otherwise in any of the other domains any extremity personality away from the midline is opening up ourselves to error and in this case this is a rather you know rather severe you know process that this poor lady goes through you know through through no fault of her own just through her own genes or driving a completely exaggerated response Oh instead of the whoever it is that she went to that wasn't able to help her she could he used a consultation with dr. Jen hawk or maybe myself that would have been probably a lot more effective mm-hmm so that's that's the story on that fantastic yeah and this listener follows up and says since this whole incident her mother has shifted to a nearby village but still is unable to work since it flames up previous memories of the accident so hypertension so all over the place yeah hyper conscience just keeps circling through and probably like I'm actually not joking about a legitimate consultation in other words someone who actually understands the machinery of the mind could could walk her through some of the interesting inferences and explain some of the the the reactions that she's having in a broader evolutionary context if she's amenable to any kind of explanation like that some people aren't for various and sundry reasons but it can be extremely useful to essentially have the internal audience understand the game way better than it does now and so very often that can can dampen down a lot of the circuits that are driving essentially a self flagellation process in order to hypersignal a village that we are in fact low-risk so that's what's transpiring and and and you know ultimately this kind of this kind of crisis will answer to a decay function in other words she will re-establish her reputation in the new village I'm the new villagers we'll see what a fine person she is she won't get kicked out of that village even when they find out about this incident that she's likely to tell them about you know sobbing or with a long face that they're not seeing the situation they're not seeing the kid they're not seeing any evidence of impulsiveness that would would lead to a problem so they continue to give accepting signals even as she tells them her sordid story and they don't kick her out of the village so ultimately even when we are when we have a distorted personality like a hyper conscientious individual we will find that the crisis eventually mitigates okay and and the response is attenuate over time so that's how that works sometimes we can help it along with some wise counsel
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