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Episode 180: Subjective experiences, Downsides of overshooting evolutionary advantage
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dear dr. Lyle what's your take on why a subjective experience would have been selected for as opposed to animals simply being like machines with no subjective experience inside more importantly what is your take on how a subjective experience can possibly be created in the mind how could neurons firing create a personal experience well this person is either wittingly or unwittingly asking the question of consciousness okay so that's that's what that question is and so there's there's numerous ideas about this and I'm not that knowledgeable about all the ideas that are that are bounding around philosophy on this topic but I think that that I think I can give give us a at least a reasonable once-over as to why it is that this would have evolved and did evolve the when you get smart enough when you get enough neurons in there what you can start to do is you can have something called an imagination and the so we're pretty sure other animals probably don't have much in the way of imaginations if at all maybe a little bit actually supposedly I can't remember I think it was a famous report by Wolfgang curler that of a I think a chimpanzee named Sultan that he had in a cage and he tied a banana a paya on a string and then Sultan apparently looked around saw stick and then used the stick to get to the banana so the nobody knows that is true I don't know what sorts of things have ever been have ever sort of come out of anything like this but certainly even a chimpanzee that that watches its mother termite fish and then goes in and picks a blade of grass and does that same thing is displaying a certain essentially an imagination they're thinking they're putting themselves into the future changing their circumstances and then they are doing something inconsistent with with the probably those kinds of images or something like that human beings you know we can't be sure at least nobody's nobody smart enough to quite know what's going on inside the heads of of you're more more sophisticated animals at this point and but maybe some some demonstrations will be convincing along the way I'm not up on this sort of thing the I can yeah I can tell you apparently there was for example some experiments done also I believe with chimpanzees where they had them look in the mirror and so they got used to looking themselves in the mirror and then what they did apparently when they were asleep they they put some red dye on their heads or some red paint on their heads and so when they woke up in the morning they looked in the mirror and they saw the red paint on their heads and they then touched the red paint they touched their forehead and so this this was a very interesting demonstration that they they knew that that was them and they could imagine that the red paint was on their forehead so this was this is showing evidence of essentially self concept in other words they're aware that they're a creature and that they they can see themselves in a mirror and know it's them and so you know you're getting towards something that looks like human behavior and the human imagination it's also in another demonstration I think this was by a a student of Jane Goodall's watched a I believe it was a female chimpanzee had some fancy food as some kind nets or some such thing and she had hidden them and then when people were in other chimps were following her down the path she made very certain she walked right past them and didn't look at him so she was effectively appeared to be knowledgeable that others would have been observing her and therefore not to tip it off so this you know possible that that was going on likely I know which she came back later and got them apparently so this is so in any rate the point here is that we definitely know that humans do all of these things so they came from somewhere and they came from a brain big enough to be to have essentially some a matrix of which the individual finds themselves in and they've got a model of the world that gets pretty complicated inside that head and what you're going to see with that is going to be imagination and so the Richard Wrangham I think makes the point that that this would have been selected for because you can imagine that the guy on the other side of the river is plotting against you and you can imagine what it is that he would do to try to attack you you can imagine that he would be thinking through where your vulnerabilities are and he's going to be looking at your little fortress and your defenses and he's going to be thinking through how to get through those and so if you can be thinking through what he's thinking through then you might be able to outwit him and so that you can see that the imagination they could could think about what another person was thinking and thinking about what another person might be thinking about what you're thinking you can start to see how you develop a subjective experience with this and Geoffrey Miller makes a very strong case in the mating mind that that it was the the tremendous imagination of people was probably driven by sexual selection probably in a variety of ways so you can the subjective experience would be very useful if you're imagining like whenever I have if I you know the few times in my life when I've ever had the guts to hit on a female you think through what it is that you're going to say and you think through how you're going to do it and you imagine yourself going through that process and then you imagine what her response is going to be and so as you rehearse in your mind's eye what you you know what you think you're going to do and then you observe and play it out with your understanding with essentially a lay psychology chip of what she's going to prom how she's probably going to react then you play this out you game it out literally potentially word by word sentence by sentence gesture by gesture as you try to put together a performance in your mind's eye that is pleasing to an internal audience so you see the development of these parts of the mind or the functions of mind that I talked about so often an internal audience something that's watching you and the imagination of you doing things you're essentially rehearsing for future real actions where real live stakes will be played out in real time with real live participants so this is so Miller makes the point that that thinking these kinds of things through would have if they would make an impact on on presentation that would be substantive let's put some numbers to it so that you can get a feel for this let's suppose a guy that thinks through his line that he's going to use on a female is 1% more successful all things being equal than a guy that doesn't that would be there you know quite substantial sexual selection it would not be very many generations before that characteristic would dominate the gene pool and so as a result you can imagine that it could actually be substantially different than that so you can see once that gets started that a male that could easily be all things being equal that let's look at how females are today so let's look at chi males who are physically very similar in their attractiveness and they're both actually quite you know similarly intelligent they have similar resources the however one of them is you know rehearses what it is that he's going to say and he comes up with more charming lines that are more funny and entertaining and flirtatious the other one is very straightforward like John Nash out of A Beautiful Mind trying to hit on a female in a bar just like blunt bluntly you know talking about you know sexual intercourse with her now so the you know he probably did yeah if you look like Russell Crowe I mean he was probably doing okay even with that with that blunt instrument but you can imagine ladies that it would make a tremendous difference and how it is that you would say things and you know we get all the way to Shakespearean sonnets and sir--no de Bergerac so we can see that how males have sung this song how they have used their words how they have essentially done done the wooing process has had a substantial impact on female sexual decision-making now some of that would have to do with just your intelligence but not entirely in other words you can imagine the difference between somebody who's quote suave and cool what is that okay well some of that is going to have to do with an internal audience I mean some of it can doesn't have to be it could be a non subjectively automaton that just happens to be slick okay that you could see how that could evolve and it was just better chops for that but you can also see that rehearsals for improved performances as as anybody that's ever been a first date now okay you know that despite how how swab you might have been genetically engineered the truth is is that you're still pretty about you're all thumbs on day one so there's some practice and some learning processes and therefore internal rehearsals would be useful and could be substantially as well so if internal rehearsals could be useful that not just for figuring out where that guy is going to come over the hill to murder your people but also for figuring out what you're going to say to the hot girl you're it's going to turn out that internal rehearsals are going to be super useful and therefore you're going to need to have a subjective internal experience an imagination that sees you know can think through and reason and feel as you imagine placing yourself under alternative circumstances and the one that you're in right now so so once you have that model you can also that very same model of moving the camera around an observation can move the camera around and feel like you're looking right inside of yourself at any given moment and saying what is it what am I thinking and feeling now and and you can be an observer to that situation so this I think that's how I believe that this is how consciousness evolved and I mean felt the self consciousness that we we see as humans but it will probably evolved collectively behind both sexual selection a la Miller and behind natural selection ala Wrangham in both cases these these this ability would have been useful in terms of evolution fascinating you know I expected you to go in a different direction but this was not that I didn't like it it was just an incredibly fascinating because I wonder if we had you know every strand of DNA was equal along all humans than we would have all similar experiences I mean we would have identical experiences right well we'd have a identical experiences provided that the environment was identical the environment would never be identical right okay so what we would we would have highly similar experiences and we do of course because our DNA is extremely similar but the individual differences in that DNA account for a large amount of the differences in the subjective experiences of humans so that that's why one person likes rock music and another person likes Beethoven so even they they both have ears and they're both responsive to music reaching emotion centers of the brain they're stylistically built a little bit different and so the disagreeable extrovert is going to like the rock music better than me then the highly conscientious fastidious introvert is probably going to like you know Beethoven better there are Brahms anyway now in Beethoven my friends with Jake is being disagreeable all right that because I have one yeah but mmm no I've just wondered about you know the randomness you know if let's say you had a box a clear box with a little mechanism to flip a coin and it was engineered such that the force of the flip on the coin was in the exact place every time would you would it go through the same number of twists to get you know and would always land on on the the right on the certain side yes it would that's just pure physics so right the UH that is that is correct it would be so the however it would be difficult to engineer something you know yeah but you could but in principle you could engineer something like that very tiny variations and suddenly we might wind up with a random process or not quite a random process it might three quarters of the time land heads okay so I'm not sure not sure where this is going for you but that's okay oh yeah I mean I guess I was going with it in the sense that the protec what I thought was the the reason why we have those objective or sub to experiences because we just have differences in DNA so we're trying to spread our genes in different ways because we are different oh oh I'm not sure that that's what they're asking Nate I think what they're asking is how why would we have evolved subjective experience so in other words we don't believe that you know my cat doesn't have subjective experience it just looks up at me and wants food okay it has feelings it has goals but it doesn't have a self reference thing where it's thinking you know my name is Annalise and what should analyse be doing today with its with herself you know I could go over here I could go over there they're not having that kind of internal dialogue or self reflection and so that that bizarre characteristic of humans the question would be you know you could simply have a super complicated organism that didn't have that and you could do you know for all we know that's what a whale is or an elephant in other words they they may not have any kind of self reflective process like that at all but they can be have great intelligence and great you know great capability and sophistication inside those heads but it wouldn't require a self-reflective kind of a process now so the question is why would that evolve and and Miller and Wrangham and I'm sure others you know take a run at this and I don't think I don't think that in typical philosophy hasn't taken a run at this and across history because they didn't have I mean it might've that doesn't have a clue they're not you know philosophers of the ages haven't been thinking like evolutionary biologists so now we're thinking like evolutionary biologists why the hell would you have this system and the the answer would be well it must have you know something so sophisticated and expensive in terms of information processing capability almost certainly had to have a very strong advantage selectively so the question is what is that advantage and there's two options it could be either survival advantages or it could be reproductive Vantage's and i think in the case of human self-consciousness i think we find we find evidence of potential use for design on both sides of the equation there's no question I understand ragams point completely that you would absolutely be thinking about what the other guy was thinking about what you were thinking in other words so the the capacity to imagine you know that someone else is actually thinking about what you're thinking and then you are thinking about what you're thinking etc that that whole process you know that would require tremendous imagination and essentially looking at yourself from the outside and then imagining different scenarios that you would do that creates a self-referent process and the same thing is true of of Mackin on mates same thing that you have to be looking at yourself as if you're an outside observer and trying to you know think about what different courses of action would do for you with respect to success in that arena too so I believe that that both survival and reproductive competitive pressures have led to a tremendous amount of growth of the human brain leading to the machinery necessary to have a virtual reality program built in to endure into our neurological structures so that you have the subjective experience that it is that's how that's what I think the question is that they're asking fascinating well in my life I found that even though I might originally disagree with you dr. Lisle you end up being right so you have so so in this case I understand I was just misunderstanding I have my own little little preconceptions about this question so good all good and now my mind started wandering on a little tangent with this with your second answer here and so my question came to where where why is it that we are trying to deceive others as to our actual those those processes that are happened where we're trying to rehearse and rehearse and rehearse and then when push comes to shove and the actual action takes place we say oh no I didn't rehearse at all or I didn't practice I it's just how good my genes are right right that's because performances are going to be performances our fitness indicators and so you you would want you would want it to be inferred by the judges that you didn't put any effort in if you could get away with it unless you're trying to sell them on your conscientiousness about how hard you worked at which you'll tell the boss oh boy did I burn the midnight oil here's what I have for you and he's like well this isn't very much like oh boy but it's a lot harder than you think I really worked hard ok so there's going to be a time in place where we're going to try to sell people on the conscientiousness and effort itself but usually we're not so usually the beauty wants to look like she didn't even try she just gets out of bed in the morning she just looks like that ok that's the idea and the the great sportsman or the great scholar you know the great math genius wants to make it look like it was effortless so you know one of the one of the more I ball rolling disgusting things that I put up with in my life was people saying oh yeah I got straight A's I didn't even study or etc it's like really Stowe did I okay and let me tell you something us Cokie I was in the library till midnight and I shut the place every night so there I could it is immediately obvious to me that in this you're taking underwater basket-weaving that if you're if you're taking four statists psych 101 statistics there's no way you don't study and get an A that is impossible there is a logical set of operations and thought you have to read you have to see where your mistakes are you have to trill learn a tremendous amount integrate the information do a great number of problems find out where things are tricky and etc are you kidding me they don't give a for free and if they do there's only a few of them that work that way but that year there's no way some student in high school you know quote doesn't study if they do it's a bozo high school and they got a bozo curriculum I don't think so okay so they're just given everybody is because everybody's paying fifty thousand dollars a year to be there but if you're in a legitimate competitive situation there are other people just as smart as you there was people just as smart as me in my grade school and some of them smarter and people just as smart of me and smarter in my junior high high school and God knows the university they're all over the place so if you're going to get very good grades you're going to study and you're going to study hard to get good grades okay so why do people do that fitness indicator showboating impression management that's exactly what they're doing and now there are people who are you know have extraordinary gifts relative to other people usually not intellectually it that way so nobody can do complex mathematics quote easily without having but it put in a tremendous amount of study but there's people that can walk out on a basketball court and just jump up and dunk okay they didn't do anything and they can't play the game very well but that they can do because that's a very direct unpracticed fitness indicator there are women that can wake up in the morning and not wash their face and they are extraordinarily beautiful that's true okay the they don't have to know makeup don't have to don't even have to do their hair okay better to look like it's a mess and something exciting happened the night before okay this point the point is is that starting to sound like a romance novel go on now so the point is is that that these are Fitness indicators and their displays and advertisements and so of course there is motivation to look like it just happened naturally okay and this this is probably an instinctual motivational system inside of humans to to quietly rehearse certainly if you're a guy trying to hit on females and you're at the upper reaches of what you're likely to be successful then you're probably going to do some rehearsals or else you've even done them in real time so often that now you've you've done it a thousand times so you're just using you know an ancient trick that you that you learn four years ago but probably not so probably you are thinking through what you cues you pick up from the female you've got in your eyesight and you're thinking through what is that you could say and you're rehearsing it in your mind's eye and when you stroll over there you are attempting to look like this is easy like you are self-assured and relaxed like there was no need to plan okay and this is exactly what people would like to do they'd like to look like to just sort of display their greatness you know as if it emanated directly from the genetic code and the better that you can make that sale the greater credit to your gene quality the audience will give you whereas if it's evident that this is the result of tremendous excruciating effort then the audience discounts what it is that they're observing in the display because they realize that hey well with enough effort you know I could have done that so it's not that impressive so you know I'm always I'm always not that impressed by these achievements where people do things like you know they strung together seventeen thousand four hundred ten cans and then they're going to post it on the internet or get a news story about it like really well I could have strung together fourteen thousand said you know cans to like that's no big deal the the what's interesting is something that required remarkable talent and then there's a there's a there's a motivation to act as if that came naturally whether you know to matic to whatever extent that it did or didn't there's some motivation to try to look like it it just it just pours out of us like the great genes that it appears to be so that's another reason why we evolved an internal audience to to watch our efforts and watch our rehearsals and give us feedback etc in order to shape our our displays so that they could be is outstanding and is natural-looking as we can as we can make them dr. Lila have you do you enjoy watching magic tricks I actually don't actually I mean I've seen a little bit of it but it doesn't really that's not something that's ever like ding to my circuits always not always bothers me and I'm scheming about what how it took place you know you don't have that high of a mystic chip in there no absolutely down there's not no question about that and this is a a point of amusement between myself and dr. Jenn Hawk my colleague that although we think very similarly about many things she's got a little mystic chip in there and so so the little mystic chick emerges at various times that at certain dates and locations and and events in the world it appears that the mystical force is intervening when it when in fact there's a lot of numbers and a lot of coincidences that take place which of course there's nothing mystical at all about it that try to convince somebody with a big chip in there not so easy well apparently there's going to be a full moon in a couple of days so you know I like that for what it is I glad you keep track and here we are talking about it yeah all right dose we gun okay dear dr. Lyle why were we given the intellectual capacity to overshoot our evolutionary advantages and then create inventions that caused our demise so many inventions create a better quality of life for us but went too far it seems that we are regressing some of those advances either for practical reasons or pure pleasure some people might find joy in the remedial basic processes by which some of our goods or foods are created and the act of doing or creating these things by hand is inherently enjoyable and modern technology robs us of the ability to experience not only these processes but the human interaction that goes that used to go along with them modern technology also allows us to use our physical bodies less taking away from the natural exercise we would have done to get around and get daily tax tasks accomplished sometimes the dilatory effects of modern technology are twofold in that they harm not only our bodies but our planet so why would our minds become so advanced to create a world where we live with and around multiple pleasure traps thus affecting our happiness why why do we have the capacity to do this yeah this is a swirling cauldron of thought out of somebody that is you know been listening to the show and and putting all kinds of little pieces together and then some big brain out there's grinding away this is exactly the center of of my of my concerns you know in life is exactly this issue so the pleasure trap was my statement about how human ingenuity had had created a set of motivational dilemmas that are actually surprisingly have surprisingly heavy cost despite they're spectacular you know spectacular upside so nobody wants to go back in a world where the food is scarce for God's sakes the however what humans have been able to do is to not just make it scarce but make it you know unbelievably cheap and now to make it super calorie dense so the the problem of getting enough calories is although it's not over everywhere in the world that's over in principle there's only going to be a few generations remain that will be still struggle for food and today apparently even in Africa more people die of dietary excess diseases than they do have dietary deficiencies now I'm not discounting the fact that there that there isn't hunger in the world there is but the but the the the 20th century saw a revolution in human beings relationship to food that it went from one of scarcity and concern and anxiety which had always been to suddenly you know the number one personal gold people in the United States is to lose weight to figure out how to eat less so that's a that's this extraordinary transformation and the pleasure trap furthermore explained that there's this enormous cost you know the the biggest coming certainly a huge cost is with your health and then of course people's happiness there which is directly related to their sexual attractiveness which people like don't like to use that phrase and comment about it but cut you know this is it is what it is I mean here we're we're thinking and talking like biologists here so the sexual attractiveness of an organism is a very big deal and if the sexual attractiveness is severely compromised you can expect there's going to be psychological consequences for this and so the the pleasure trap the rich food drove a you know an unprecedented epidemic of obesity and excess weight which drove an unprecedented decline of the sexual attractiveness of the vast percentage in majority population for God's sakes and so now you know we scratch our heads wondering why it's so difficult to find a partner that matches up on all these dimensions and that where people are mutually sexually attracted to each other and you have in the middle of this a an extraordinary problem with excess weight so this is a double-edged sword is what we have so this is this is the person's question is why did this happen well it happened because it just so happens that the human beings brains got big enough that this this organism got really smart now not all of them got really smart but some of them some of them got very smart and as a result of that and fact they've got these you know poseable thumbs and clever little digits that can move you know very very accurately and to put together and essentially reorganize matter in a way that you know if you if you're a adult and you've got flippers you know you're not going to reorganize anything but if you're a human being on land and you've got fingers you can use your brain to analyze the movement of fingers and the materials that you are using you know those fingers on and you could start figuring out how to essentially rearrange the universe and as you rearrange the universe if you're smart enough and you got enough imagination and and you've got a communication abilities that were all evolved for different things it turns out that you can wind up with spectacular advances now they don't happen in leaps they have they happen in one tiny little innovation after the next and and so ten thousand years ago we had nothing we had no specialized information at all we had a spear you know that was it and that same spirit had been around for several probably a hundred thousand years at least so the so now what happened was that as a result of a multitude of factors coming together you wind up with you know first obviously being agriculture and what what happens a Greek I'll probably arose at a result of human beings being successfully enough that they had colonized all over the planet substantial enough concentrations that they were running into each other so they're probably needed to be a solution to how it is that we're going to get food without encroaching on the other guy's land and then they're going to their get we're going to have a fight over it so being forced to try to figure out how to get more calories per square foot if that is in fact is what happened and it very likely did what took place was agriculture so the Agricultural Revolution then winds up taking place in multiple places around the globe over a few thousand years and what happens then is that because agriculture is more calories per square foot and more calories per unit of effort it turns out it's more efficient so as a result it starts to take over human activity so hunting and gathering start to get displaced by agricultural activity and at the the increased amount of calories not only per unit of effort but also critically important is per unit of land per square foot so it turns out that agriculture on average can even early agriculture can produce a hundred times as many calories per square foot because you could produce 100 calories more per square foot you can have a hundred times as many people in the same land so now what happens is that you get high concentrations of humans in the same place vastly higher than you ever saw under hunter-gatherers well the thing is is that this creatures just smart enough so two things are happening at the same time you have a high concentration of people in the same place where you never did before so now you've got a thousand people where you only used to have 25 so you've got 40 times as many humans that you're talking to so you've just collectively vastly increased the total amount of knowledge inside the collective brain not only that because it's a Greek ulcers more efficient not everybody has to spend their whole time getting food the way they did it or Heather hunter-gather situation so now you wind up with people being able to specialize their labors in different things so people start learning how to make moccasins people start learning how to make a heart and now you start to find out that human beings can transform reality in an infinite number of ways as these reshape reality to what human beings like or need or want now so the person's question is how did we evolve such spectacular abilities the answer is they're not that spectacular our abilities are not that spectacular if you were to take a hundred of the smartest people in the world right now and put them on a desert island they can't they couldn't build a cell phone not a chance the smartest ones that there are okay there's no way they would have no chance to do so even twenty-five years old you have the twenty you have the hundred of the smartest 25 year old engineers on earth you put them on a desert island right now come back in 50 years you don't have a cell phone okay it's way too complicated too many little pieces too many of them parts an accretion of knowledge bit by bit by bit none of it located in a single brain it's distributed throughout a vast network of humans so now you have collectively human beings can do unbelievable things like completely change the relationship between human beings and their food okay but it but it wasn't it wasn't one spectacular ability sitting inside human beings as an animal it's a collective action of little bits of of expertise in millions of individuals that's how it takes place that's the world that you see and it turns out because they can act cooperatively their ability to transform the world to human ends is just staggering now so what you know what does this all mean it means we're going to wind up with you know frightening-looking two-edged swords so at some point believe me you know I would have loved to have some kind of fancy spear gun and ultimately a carbine rifle in order to shoot a wild animal that could threaten me and my family however what's going to happen is that's going to lead to a cultural arms race with respect to that and then pretty soon we've got nuclear weapons you know 150 years later unbelievable 100 years later probably so the again not in one individual but in the collective genius of coordinated action you you wind up with unbelievable things now on balance you know we're way better off it's not even remotely close but this person asked the question isn't it interesting that some of the simple things the simple pleasures of life the simple efforts ie growing food cooking you know working collectively with other people in essentially a village-like environment you know isn't it interesting that some of these things are soothing and pleasant yes it is interesting some of these things are Fitness indicators some of these things are indicative of our willingness to be helpful and to be able to be cooperative in a group and our ability to show that we can that were good producers for the group and the fact that we're interacting with the food itself and the fact that we can that we grew it right off of our own vine so we have this perceived self-efficacy that we could survive without modern civilization and anybody else there's all kinds of little chips inside our head that can get tickled by simpler situations so very few people have ever had those tickles wind up living in a mud hut growing their own food talking to four people and they don't do so because it's not that interesting that the human being has generally great curiosity it wants to learn or wants to it wants to expand its knowledge so that it can make the finest choices that they can in order to optimize its existence and that doesn't mean before closing a great deal of knowledge typically so we wind up with a I don't know yin-yang balance openness closed modern versus traditional you know questions and this is what I call wisdom Forks and that is that you know it's a process of learning of not only about humanity in general but about ourselves specifically about what are the kinds of balances that I like in my life and so to to look out for when life and the modern opportunities take us out of balance so some of those balances are as this person mentions the rat race which is what I call the hill climbing gene and and the relentless pursuit of pseudo esteem where where it feels like this is a very energy efficient thing to do to get tremendously popular and successful and everybody see our Instagram or whatever when the truth of the matter is is that what people mostly enjoy is earning a steam in the right way from people to matter and so also eating healthy food and feeling really good and enjoying the taste of natural food dominantly in your in your life I would argue that that's a better way to live and to be self indulgent as hell I have to tell you though I know somebody that is self indulgent is help and I can also tell you that's one of the happiest people that has ever lived okay so I don't I don't pretend to have a universal prescription for all individuals that what we can have is a series of questions as we contemplate some of these alternative choices and and and dilemmas and so that's what beats or jeans is about and it's about recognizing that human ingenuity is collectively given rise to a phenomenal opportunity that we don't have to spend our time digging for potatoes in the dirt only having one or two mating choices having pregnancy inevitable from-from unions that are modest interest etc and then and then face injury or disease as as disastrous consequences and wild animals in the cold in other words we don't have to do those things so the modern environment has vastly lifted human beings into a place where their nervous systems can spend a great deal of time without those negatives but at the same time it has lured them into some trouble and so that's that's what this whole podcast and my career is really about is the examination of that and so this was a great question and and in and the weeks and months to come we will continue to pick away at some of the specifics as we get questions from others as well as when we get dr. Hawk on here we'll talk more directly about some of the things that that we want to do to make smarter choices at these wisdom forks
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