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Episode 154: Female ambition psychology, Messy roommate, roots of privacy
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well today we are going to talk about a little bit about female ambition and the psychology of such so we're going to start off right away without any further ado dr. Lyle this is in context with talking about playing guitar and doing sports and listener writes dr. model if things like sports and playing guitar and doing art our sexual displays that help men attract mates but nothing will attract a man to a woman if she doesn't first cut the mustard on appearance what motivated what motivates women to be involved in the more aggressive end of sports and music with respect music I particularly mean more aggressive or rock type music as opposed to acoustic stuff with his listeners hypothesis is is it the idea of if I fit in or copy the boys they'll like me or these women just more testosterone eyes even if they don't look like it the financial reward potential might be a factor but maybe this goes beyond any hope of financing can't fear a good question and and I'm I can't like speak directly to an answer but if we back the camera up we're going to look at performance arts as fitness indicators and the we're going to arts arts in general or fitness indicators and so it's going to be true that both males and females are going to use these avenues in order to display their fitness and so we would expect in general we're going to expect that males are going to be more interested in displaying essentially aggression protection capabilities etc so we're going to look at sports and females or women we're going to see more display of their sexual attractiveness directly so we're going to see looking at mmm singing would be a way to for example display high feminized voices and the obviously singing and acting are ways to to display your just sheer physical attractiveness so those are and certainly modeling the so there's those sorts of things interestingly enough that that women are interested in displaying other artistic capabilities like you know interior design fashion design which is starting the fashion design is getting involved in interesting clothing to ie make one's body more sexually attractive etc so you can see that that female Fitness indicators are are designed for things that make a lot of sense in terms of displaying essentially estrogen cues and male Fitness indicators are very much around displaying testosterone related cues so that doesn't that's not any big surprise the fact there is a small degree of overlap between these bell curves shouldn't shock us and so the so I think that that's I think when this person hypothesized that we're probably seeing more testosterone as females you know if you've got some some female with a guitar in her hand that's banging out you know hard rock that that is very likely to be a highly testosterone highs female and she may not look like it physically but you can't tell the distribution of testosterone or estrogen and anybody just by looking at their physical form you know you have to you have to understand that the brain could have been testosterone eyes din you know and yet the body is evidencing a high degree of vestige in kiss so the cues are not distributed homogeneously throughout you know throughout the phenotype so the so that obviously is a big deal and you're also going to see that remember that the propensity to display display cues any certain types of cues it's not a let me let me see what I'm trying to get said here the the ambition the is involved in producing Fitness indicators and competing to try to climb dominance higher just in order to get there that the fact that it that you could you're also looking to possibly you might carry for example aggressive physical protection and domination cues as a female and display those but really in your gene pool those are going to be more successful when they wind up sitting inside your son or your brother so the fact that you happen to have those cues doesn't necessarily isn't necessarily in any way related to a female strange-looking strategy it just so happens that that's sitting big and loud inside that gene pool and that that that individual who happens to have a female and would otherwise have these things muted and directed towards other Fitness indicators that are more associated with female displays it is essentially loud enough and and broad and wide enough in that gene pool it's leaking over into what is would conventionally be testosterone displays so I think that that's what it is let me the evidence for for testosterone ization and and this kind of of these kind of displays comes from research showing that women that are more testosterone eyes darf are more likely to be physically aggressive much more likely to be involved in sports etc than women that that are that have less testosterone so the testosterone is a key indicator there and therefore it's no surprise that if that if that quantity goes up whether it's in a male or a female we're going to start seeing what we would traditionally view as male oriented behavior fascinating now the next question actually has to do with ambition as this you know this keeps going and so the listener comments dr. Lao the family size seems to drop as women's education improves what do you think is the reason behind this have the possibilities of education and a career perhaps even pressure to pursue a career affected the average woman's happiness for the better or for the worse let me think about this there's some interesting ideas that this person is knocking on let's let's first of all look at family size and women's education so certainly the we live in a world where if you have the brains and if you have a conscientiousness then what's going to happen is is that it makes sense to invest in an education an education is effectively improving you're in principle it's improving your mental capital it's making you more capable of solving problems so that people can't solve now it may just mean that were that we're headed for some government guild that there's a gatekeeper somewhere and that you actually don't learn anything useful but you just have a stripe on your head that says that you're worth a hundred thousand year and other people aren't okay but let's ignore let's ignore that that inefficiency in the marketplace and let's assume that more education in principle means more specialized knowledge ability to solve problems be more valuable and therefore make more money the therefore it would make sense for people men and women to look at their chops look at what the marketplace demands look look at what the cost-benefit analysis is of investing in your education estimate your lifespan and your useful time that you would spend using that education and multiply that by the amount of money divided by the amount of you know effort that you're it's going to take to get this thing and come up with a decision about whether or not we're going to invest in our education so let's suppose that so first of all we have to understand that increased women education is not happening uniformly it's happening so give lay among women that are more intelligent and more conscientious so because there was more use for higher levels of education as you get to be a more sophisticated industrialized society then it's going to turn out that it's it's more worth it to make that investment so that that's happening now when you do that and you start investing in that education you're reducing the amount of time that it makes sense to be having children if you can't be in med school and be a mom now can you yeah you can't but good luck to you I hope you're already independently wealthy so you can have a nanny I mean this is going to be exceedingly difficult to do and so the same thing is true if you're in an MBA program PhD program you know physical therapy program etc etc so people the same high conscientiousness it's that's going to be involved in getting an education and the same intelligence is involved in getting an education is also going to be involved in systematically and intelligently using birth control so what's going to happen is we're going to narrow the window of how many years you have that are going to be fertile where you're going to be on the on the child market and so we're going to cut it down by a whole lot so it's very likely that you know from 18 years old to 30 a young woman is pursuing her education and investing in it whereas some other woman who's not pursuing that education you know there's nothing there's no particularly reason to stop her from starting to have children when she's 22 so the so the window can be twice as long for somebody who's not pursuing higher education so that we have to factor that in now now we go to another part of this person's question so even even if we didn't have intelligence and conscientiousness we didn't have personality variables in the game we would already see family size dropping this education would increase just because of the window involved the time and energy involved in having children making it essentially prohibitively expensive time and energy wise for somebody's pursuing higher education now the now now we're going to look at the other things that could be involved the it's also it's going to turn out that that the what would be the impact on women's happiness with respect to this state of affairs the well we could look at this problem it would be very hard to look at it theoretically so there would be no evolutionary lens where we could say gee would you be happier as long as you were reasonably safe and reasonably comfortable and reasonably secure financially is is there any reason why you wouldn't want to have six children and start having those children at 18 or 19 after all you're a biological reproduction machine why wouldn't that be possibly a superior path towards greater happiness than someone who works on her career gets herself an MBA JD from Duke and then starts you know hits the market at 29 years old and makes a lot more money and now has a narrow omitting window and then squeezes in a couple of kids you know by her 40th birthday so you know who's happier the it turns out that lady from Duke is happier the it turns out that in general if we run a correlation coefficient on on on these on these life choices as best we can tell the more money people have the happier they are and specifically it isn't actually the greater than net worth it's actually the income now there'd be a variety of reasons for this that I don't think have necessarily been very well parsed out not by the research that I've seen so the greater your income what's happening is that the environment is signaling to you that you're valuable to the coalition so if you're a trust-fund baby and somebody just hands you a five million dollar net worth that we wouldn't expect that to create the level of happiness that earning 100 thousand dollars a year would achieve the reason we if you're an economic deprivation you may not be able to see that that's because money doesn't buy happiness what money does is it subtracts and potentially eliminates unnecessary misery so when people are in deprivation they believe that if they hit the lottery this is going to like really make their lives a lot better what will do is it'll eliminate misery caused by deprivation but it's not going to actually put happiness in the system it's dipped it's a different phenomenon and so the happiness is going to be caused by earning a steam and the right way from the people that matter so that means essentially earning the respect and regard people that you're doing worthwhile work for somehow connected to market processes tells the organism that they are fundamentally secure and valuable and you don't get that by being a trust-fund kid and you don't get that by winning the lottery so we're getting lucky on an investment or Uncle Louie you know gave you some money or whatever it just doesn't do the same thing and so this is why we're going to see higher incomes associated with higher happiness partly as a result of the they're getting stronger signals of esteem from the marketplace in addition the higher income female is in a much greater position of power across a number of life domains so they're going to be have much less dependence on mates so if it turns out that a mating situation goes sour which they generally will it's going to turn out that that under those conditions they're not going to be economically dependent and have to stick in a situation they don't want to be in they're going to be less dependent upon the the personality and whims of their bosses or the situation with a company or anything else under the Sun they're not having to work on a factory floor in the company town putting in popsicle sticks you know to mean for $10 an hour and then when it turns out that the factory closes they're in trouble okay no they've got options they're fine their employer has competitors for their valuable abilities and therefore they're not pinned in anything they're also less dependent upon their family so when their father their mother or Uncle Louie or somebody tells them they need to stay in a marriage or they need to do this or they need to do that or you better come over for dinner every Sunday night and you better not you know you better not vote for the people on the other end of the political spectrum that we don't believe in otherwise you know you're going to lose the family support well guess what if I make my own money and I'm financially independent and I am getting cues from the marketplace am I an independent then I can I can display who it is that I am and be who it is that I want to be without nearly the fear of family censure and rejection from coalition where we have conflicts of interest and so as a result as a result of many of these factors and probably ones I'm not thinking of we would expect increased income to be correlate with happiness though for we would expect with women with higher education that that it wouldn't be long before the world gets smart enough to figure out that it's worth pursuing more abilities in the marketplace and so as a result women start to do this they start to reduce their their breeding windows and as a result we're going to wind up with less kids and more happiness and that's what we find and so like I said we wouldn't necessarily have on prima facie evolutionary grounds expected this we might have said well gee maybe this is much ado about nothing and the inherent joys of raising children and watching these little things grow would be so rewarding and feels so inherently productive that the lady with six kids is happier than the lady with with zero one or two it turns out to be that that is not the case so for for the reasons I've outlined and probably ones that I not to mention for example that in general people with with higher intelligence have a wider range of interests and it turns out that we live in a world now that you have the ability to actually indulge those so if you have the means and the freedom from the constraints that we were just talking about you can travel the world you can read books you can look at videos and effectively you can spend your time in many ways that will activate happiness mechanisms inside your head that are independent of the the joys and tribulations of motherhood and so as a result these and other another factors like I said that I'm not considering would result in you know probably conscious as well as unconscious choice mechanisms CB s being run in the heads of young women saying you know what I'm putting this thing off I'm going to put off having kids I'm going to reduce this I'm only going to have it under under idealized circumstances in other words they start beating their chins and that's why that these are some of the reasons why you're going to see women's education and family size you know negatively correlated that's really fascinating I was typing up a question follow-up question about the you know having kids who value you versus having a marketplace that values you and you answered it right at the very end of the the explanation so it's it's really curious that do you think that not having kids results in a little less happiness at the end of life you know that's a good question now and once again this one would have to be solved empirically because there would be no theoretical way to do it it turns out that couples don't have children are at least as happy as couples that have children interestingly enough the now I don't know when they're taking that data and there's many factors this doesn't mean that that in principle children are Happiness zero in other words your particular child and your particular life it could be immensely positive and the CB could have been huge in the positive direction for you God knows it was for my parents all protestations to the contrary the so the point is is that however what we see is you know when we actually look at it empirically we see that it's at least a fair shake for not having kids now what we're going to find within within this data is we're going to find enormous individual variation so I know that there are women who are really really tortured by the fact that they did not have children and and it's just flat-out hard on them and that it's just the way it is they've got a they've got a maternal chip in there and the way circumstances played out in their life it just turned out that that was impossible and you know they'd really feel a haunting emptiness and that's you know it doesn't surprise me that such a thing exists at all I find that by the way much less way more rarely expressed in males although I have seen it ok but I would say that I've seen it expressed in females probably 10 to 1 more than males which is kind of interesting and and indicative of essentially the the natural difference between men and women in terms of the sort of emotional connection and investment that goes on with with child-rearing so so that that's that's what it looks like and and that's what I know and so if you can't if you if you can't have kids and you really wanted them you know it's a tough situation you can obviously mimic it a little bit in a number of ways and one that's one of the reasons one of several reasons why we have pets is that it's very much a parental type of a process and a fascination with personality and a joy of creating happiness and another nervous system that step this is very much akin to what's happening in parent-child process until pounders Kelly become PA so dr. Lao know with with regards to the couple of the study that your the data that you cited about couples being just about as happy with kids versus without kids I know there's limitations to that as you stated but do you consider that a paradox in that you know there's the biological purpose of life is survival of reproduction but and the moods of happiness are designed to tell us that we're on that right path but we can artificially create these moods of happiness without actually you know reproducing yeah I think it seems a little bit paradoxical that when we when we think about it think about it this way the think about the way the nervous system is engineered is it's engineered to try to get you to do things that will cause the reproduction of DNA now it's going to turn out that what that means is attraction lust romance sex that's what causes the DNA to be reproduced now once the DNA is reproduced your stack okay the little thing is squalling it's vulnerable as hell okay now we're going to spend a tremendous amount of time and anxiety over this enormous biological investment this little thing is going to signal every little perturbation of discomfort that it's going to have it's going to be screaming for attention and resources okay and protection etc so as a result now suddenly guess what guess what our focus is now not on it's not on romance lust sex etc romance forget about it it's on making sure that this little thing manages to survive okay and then it becomes on attempting to engineer socially and with instruction this things rise in in the socio-cultural dominance hierarchy so that it can maximize its Fitness displays and therefore have its own romance and sex process that's optimal with the best possible specimen on the other side of the table that we're trying to chisel 10% extra gene quality out of so that the grandchildren will then be fancy okay so suddenly suddenly the game just went away from your own personal consumption of lust romance sex adventure and it just went into let's now now work incredibly fascinated with this process now do what did evolution do evolution essentially put a huge lure out there and a lot of positive effect around the romance lust sex etc that's what it did okay it what it then did was it put a lot of anxiety nervousness you know tension irritability you know pushing and shoving worry put all kinds of things associated with the protection of this asset once you've got it interesting okay so evolution engineered the human psychology in such a way that turns out to be optimal for the reproduction of the DNA but by no means if by following that script you actually optimize the life experience of the individual so that's that's the resolution of the paradox is that evolution was never designed to optimize your happiness it was designed to goad you into doing its bidding and it was going to throw you little bits of happiness and pleasure along the way to get you to do it and after that it was going to throw you a lot of anxiety and tension and sweat okay and so that's how that's how it's done and that's why we call this podcast Beecher gins is because we're absolutely out to try to out think that system and to try to actually optimize your personal life experience rather than optimize your DNA success yeah and speaking of you know these genes trying to get you to do things I'm going back to what you said earlier about women's education and that more intelligent more conscientious people will tend to be getting more educated and I can just hear in ELC in my my you know just kind of fantasy of news headlines and you know population behavior of people saying oh well now that now that dr. Lisle says more intelligent more conscientious people go to college now people are going to go to go to college in order to display more intelligence conscientiousness so the question is what is it with our drive to deceive and this deception you know hmm I'm not keep talking I'm not quite not quite there with you yet keep trying to ask me again okay yeah what do I figure out what you're trying to ask yeah what I guess what I'm trying to ask is when you people will make a false correlation that oh is more intelligent conscientious people go to college therefore if I go to college I will be more Intel writing conscientious and so I guess that's that's the big question is my suspicion is that it's it's more of a display as I'm going to go to college in order for people to believe that I'm more intelligent conscientious since you know someone tells me that that that's the case right right yeah so people are going to sometimes do things as displays rather than actually attempting to improve they're there for example their economic position in the market so this was this was standard operating procedure for example in 1940s and 50s and remains true to the state of some degree but not nearly to this degree in the 1940s and 50s the the business world and the the world of higher education and the jobs associated with it we're not hospitable to women so what women did intelligent women and women of means in high conscientiousness were encouraged to go to schools and the best schools that they could go to in order to display conscientiousness and intelligence not actually to get anything marketable for the economic environment so there they are there so they're they're displaying those assets in order to improve their mating position so that's what they were doing there okay so a college education with a stripe on your head indicating that the girl that is a little bit prettier than you isn't as smart and conscientious as you because she didn't go to Smith okay she didn't go anywhere but you did and so so this is how you know this is how this was done the nowadays you could still do that and people undoubtedly do do that to some degree and in a lot of times you know I don't know it probably serves some some mating purpose not not the fancy mating purpose that it would have served in the 1950s and 60s most of the time people are are actually most women today when they pursue higher education they are aiming at increasing their marketability okay so they're they're also of course as all of us would be also attempting to display increased intelligence and and increased conscientiousness but that's not all so we're not just there for those displays we're also there to try to turn this into higher dollars per hour if it is we can and also hopefully turn it into higher dollars per hour in the pursuit of some kind of a problem with which we have talent or interest and so that's that's theoretically theoretically what's going on higher education and to some extent that is happening legitimately but okay yeah I mean part of the reason of doing these things is to is to display so somebody gets themselves a degree in art history from Vassar you know I mean let's face it they're not you know good good luck the only job you've got as a docent so you're not you're not going to make a nickel so but what it is you might need some fad fancy guys cocktail party but between there and MIT or whatever that guy lxo get a job all right well speaking of conscientiousness and going to college the next question has to do with it sounds like a college student who just got a roommate dr. weiland highly conscientious and recently got a roommate who somewhere on the other side they often leaves a mess dishes are never out of the sink and last week I specifically asked him to collect trash in the bin not in the paper bags next to it but to no avail it takes willpower not to clean up after him at every single turn can you give me a few tips on how to deal with this yeah I can give you one tip specifically get rid of them okay so the eventually that will be the solution obviously so there's going to be some time between now and the point point where you part ways with this individual so one thing that I can that can help help assist you in in this process is what I call the mathematize ation of misery so your misery if we look at how much is how much time it's going to take to clean up after them probably you know what ten minutes a day will probably do a halfway decent job so ten minutes a day it's basically more or less an hour a week so if you're going to be with this guy for the next year before you boot him out he's going to steal fifty hours of your life okay that's what's going to happen and so it's not totally lost because you can be daydreaming during that time you can also be plotting aggressive actions that you take against them there might be some interesting activity that's going on inside your head during those 50 hours but make no mistake those are not an ideal use of those 50 hours so yeah the solution is you just found out why it is that the the six bell curves do not sound value free okay so this is this is where I was just speaking with the gentleman today who you know was was deeply in and for his career has been deeply into the myers-briggs which is a totally worthless document and the and what use what I watched as he was struggling with my explanations to him is I was essentially watching his frustration and dissonance over the fact that that he has been confused for his whole career and in the myers-briggs what do we find we find everyone gets prizes and everybody's a good good person ok so that's why it works beautifully in management seminars you're a thinker and you're an intuitive person okay you're a feeler you're a relationship person versus yura you're a task person okay nowhere in there is jerk flake worthless stupid you know narcissist and nutcase nope yet those words exist in the language and they're there for a reason the truth of the matter is is that personality characteristics as we describe them are not even remotely equal in value free so it turns out that that there's a reason why we're fixated on personality differences is because they're very very important and so the difference between a highly conscientious person and a flake is a lot okay highly conscientious person is not going to make as many mistakes not going to leave you open to exposure to disaster etc etc they will impose some costs on you because they'll ask you are you sure are you sure to check okay so there's some costs associated with them all right the person on the low side though is going to leave you wide open now they're going to caught they're going to be very costly which is why when we say someone is hyper conscientious that doesn't sound like an insult and when we say they're a flake it does okay when we say they're a sweetheart that's not an insult when we say they're a bastard it is okay when we say they're a nut that is not that is an insult when we say they're solid like Oh solid as a rock ie stable that that is not an insult that's a compliment when we say they're smart that's a compliment when we say they're they're not very Swift okay not the sharpest knife in the drawer okay that is not a compliment so we seed through the big five okay the we see we're painting the picture of things that are valuable and not valuable and it turns out that you know these people with personality characteristics that are expensive they are there's a reason why you're having the feelings you're having low conscientiousness ask the guy to do some simple things isn't going to do it to no avail you've done it repeatedly you know this is this is in the guy's genes it's not changing so you're going to be putting up with this this behavior for as long as you're with them so mathematize your misery plot your way out and get to a better situation as soon as it's practical but run that it's not you know it's not all obviously this individual has some assets versus liabilities but you know you're you can tell by your own level of irritation or your own level of happiness in a relationship whether what the Seabee really looks like relative to your reasonable alternatives and if you're writing to us I know that you're irritated and you're a little frustrated and you're like wow this is not an expense that I expected to have to incur in this relationship and so therefore as soon as is reasonably practical we're moving on I love it mmm as you can probably guess the roommates in my life have either had to fall in liner I had to move out oh yeah got it sure sometimes I was alright what else yeah alright our next question is about the modern notions of privacy doctor law do you think those notions of privacy and data security and all the rest of privacy is realistic and how do they break our evolutionary tree from how you describe the bitch it doesn't seem like privacy really a thing with arguments even set happening in public hmm boy we get some we get some very interesting questions here I would say that there was concerns about privacy and data security in the Stone Age it's called keeping your own counsel and people were were careful to to essentially be thinking through their essentially political concerns that the the leaked information strategically and they were very careful with it we call it plotting and you always had to be on the lookout in the Stone Age from others try looking to exploit you and there was always somebody - there's always somebody not too far away from you in your life that would be looking to exploit you so so privacy about what you're thinking and what you're up to and what is it you want etc your your interests it's it's often useful to to not be transparent now so that same same issues exist today so this this has people a little to some degree a little worried about I mean for some very obvious reasons for you know broad security measures with respect to the internet and so on and so forth the obviously people could get your financial data you know you could be in a lot of other for a world of hurt but beyond that beyond those issues you're who it is you know things about your proclivities your sexual issues all kinds of things your you know who you may have been flirting with that you theoretically weren't supposed to be you know what who you voted for what your political leanings are there's all kinds of things that could be problematic for you in your relationships that mean something to you they could be you know essentially found out outed or something else under the Sun so as a result our concerns about this do go back to the Stone Age and they walk their way right into the present and so no I don't I don't see this is a is a novel thing I just look at it it's the same kind of problems we've always had except with the novel spin and to some degree to some degree sort of a two-edged sword in other words some degree we are more independent from other people than we ever were in general and so who the hell cares what anybody thinks I'm in a free country and if I've got skills that and that are useful for other people and I've got some money in the bank you know who on earth is going to help me about what and what is it going to cost me if your celebrity could be unbelievably costly to you but for the rank-and-file person who really cares you know I mean whether whether you're a presbyterian or a Methodist and what it is that you happen to say about that you know last year so the so to some degree we are insulated from the potential magnitude of importance of outcomes that could have happened in the Stone Age so to some degree we are probably programmed by stone age level concerns to be hypersensitive about these things I see for example a great deal of consternation and upset over things that are happening on Facebook so you know so-and-so posted this on Facebook and oh my god so we got like a bunch of upset about something and it's like really what tentacles to these people really have anywhere near your life with respect to any outcomes that really mean anything and the answer is they're tickling circuits of insecurity about where you stand in the village is what's going on so I think we are believe me it disturbs me that the ruskis somewhere in some boiler room are trying to crack the code of my bank and they might lift my money out of some account you know that bothers me it bothers me I met a guy in prison that had stolen half a million dollars on the inter that and he told me nobody ever figured out how he did it so this was all matter of you know stealing sixty-seven cents from some kind of an internet transaction from a whole bunch of people for over a period of time so the I don't care if they get if the crooks get 67 cents but I don't want to wake up one day and have a bunch of money stolen and then have my bank shrug their shoulders and like well it's sort of your fault you know this or that happened so the so I think that we have legitimate concerns about some about some privacy and financial issues and so on other issues today but I think most of the anxiety that we have actually is rooted in some anxieties over over deep Stone Age algorithms that are saying I need to be very careful about what other people think and know about me and I need to be monitoring the opinion of the village about me and I think that social media winds up being a very disturbing you know essentially hypertrophy of that process that can cause an awful lot of people far more consternation and upset then then is warranted and I think it's because it's piggybacking it's making people feel like they're standing in the village is is being is being moved around by these processes when in fact the actual connections between individuals in their life and real-world outcomes the matter are not there okay their boss isn't watching their Facebook page their boss doesn't care and didn't post some negative photo about what what it looked like when they were having a glass of champagne over at their friend's house you know where they visited Tahoe you know none of that is happening what's happening is instead a lot of hypersensitivity to the status losses and gains and pseudo status losses and games in a virtual world that that is simply mimicking real live important status losses of the Stone Age so that's that's why I think that that's what I think is happening fascinating I'm glad you brought up Facebook but as you said I still remember Facebook is the cigarette of the 21st century and you just described more reasons of it yeah good yeah the an amazing actually amazing an amazing innovation and invention sort of almost incredible the its it yet essentially tore off a blind spot in in psychology I don't know that psychologists have quite fully grasped this yet but the notion is it's really shown the extraordinary status sensitivity of the species we sort of knew was there but we didn't really know and now we really know if we're if we're paying attention now we can really see it
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