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Episode 142: Why do boys pick on girls giving gifts, people you dislike
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all right well it is Wednesday the day after the election and I mean we're both in California and there was a really interesting proposition on the measure and that was to get rid of daylight savings time I thought that it's gonna be interesting why that whether or not that's going to happen I think we all voted YES for it we've got to wait for the federal law so as the seasons changing I guess we're going to daylight savings time so I guess we've gained an hour of sleep and apparently it all is good yeah that has nothing to do with the show today go ahead I was just bringing it up into a roundabout way of some of the you know myths and legends and urban things that I used to hear growing up about you know if you power sleep a day now people are more likely to get in car accidents and if we do the way with that and everyone does better and so one of the things that we used to hear a lot of urban legends is that when little boys pick on little girls we're told that it's because they like them this is one of the listeners questions and so this listener wants to know if dr. Lisle does that make sense and is this why boys actually pick on girls and is it analogous to bad boy behavior later on in life it's a really interesting question and I think that we probably have to begin by looking at what what kind of picking on girls that we would be observing but if we're the kind that most of us are thinking then this is probably what you're probably seeing is early flirtation instincts and you're probably seeing some rehearsals that are going on that will be used later the a strategy for for maintaining relationships where you are over awarded as a male is to is to attack the self-esteem or the cell attacked the confidence of the female so you'll see this in in what do you call it you know battering abusive situations etc and you're going to undoubtedly see in sub subclinical abusive situations as well where a male who is anxious and and disagreeable is going to essentially use little strategies to reduce the female confidence so that the female stays with him because it's the best deal she could get this is a long ways from little boys quote picking on females but it may it may have roots in a similar strategy and of course of some of it has nothing to do that some of it is actually upside down ways of flattering the girl in signaling interest so I think that I think that the answer is probably and this is sort of an open question as to all of the little instincts that are going on here but clearly this is this is sort of deep instinctive behavior in human beings or we wouldn't see this is a worldwide phenomenon that we can all quickly recognize and that it's clearly that the boy is you generally interested in the girl wanting to get positive feedback and wanting to figure out how - in other words how to engage that process so this is you know the most famous of all this stuff was you know Tom Sawyer and Becky Thatcher and you know that's the sort of the iconic type of stuff that would go on there but yeah in bad boy behavior I don't know bad boy behavior to me is sort of assertive dominant behavior that would be out of males later and that you know that probably young boys that would would show that early at 7 or 8 years old are probably very much more testosterone and more assertive in and more disagreeable and far more likely to evidence those kinds of behaviors later in life in flirtatious situations and everywhere else fascinating so what kinds of flirtatious situations are these young boys practicing is it the I mean you mentioned there trying to think of cartons better yeah yeah they're practicing some dominance practicing some socially risky behavior to potentially criticize someone they're also looking potentially to to set up to set up contrast effects for if we insult someone on something and then we turn around and flatter them on something else then we've set up a contrast effect for the flattery so now the flattery is much more believable actually it's interesting that just just the political scene here in the last couple three days I'm extremely uninterested in politics but Trump is an interesting character to me he's an interesting steady as he should be for for anybody any psychologist and the Trump does interesting techniques that I believe come natural to him and that is that he will insult people and then he'll turn around and flatter them and these are these are contrast effects the the flattery means great deal more after you've been insulted by the individual it's like they've turned and now they see your inner beauty so this is so this is actually clearly what he did to caman in North Korea this is absolutely what this is about and so it's a common thread that you'll see Trump do and you know just you haven't seen that in politics you haven't seen such sort of a car salesman you know bar barroom oriented strategy being used but there it is and so this sort of boys picking on girls is very much along these same lines it's criticized first flat or second and by setting up contrasts it makes the flattery all the more potent so flatter first and criticize second definitely doesn't work doctor allows that so that's why do that that's when you're leaving because you've been ejected just like you know you weren't so great anyway so the hell with you that's how that works I thought a movie one time and the the gentlemen in high school was asking the girl hey would you like to go dance and she's very rudely said no so he goes oh you must have misunderstood me I said you look fat in those pants yeah didn't quite work shit that's good that's beautiful perhaps he sort of started with the first insult and then asked her to dance but yeah yeah who knows you got it - no okay all right well that's certainly uh uh you know answers the question I guess there's more about this in David buses evolution of desire talks about right what women are looking for and what men are looking for in evolutionary psychology of their dating thinking but fascinating fascinating ok well the next question is about dating as well because you know so many people have questions about dating yeah after Lau's wondering if you could talk about the psychology behind why people value certain gifts I've heard Jerry Seinfeld observed that women are with men to get flowers so if the gift of flowers at the key gesture in relationships with women is evolutionary psychology the key to why women love to get flowers seems to be one of the most common gifts along with fur coats and shiny objects are the neural circuits of our ancestors responsible for these gift preferences and modern humans undoubtedly so so this is really a beautiful question and I should have insulted the question first and then said that all right the now this is a very good question very interesting one and the and I don't know how much is known about these things but we we can see some very strong evolutionary roots in gift-giving and certainly gift-giving of this kind so a lot of what is romantic about gifts is the fact that they are wasteful and so flowers are wasteful they're there's no there they have no utility and so as a lot of little shiny stuff and jewels and so on and so forth so the and it's notice that the jewels or jewelry is not only is it wasteful it's very wasteful because the materials are difficult to get and if the materials aren't difficult to get then some very complicated high energy high skill a great deal of time and energy has gone into weaving the thing together or putting little scratches in it that look perfect and it tells a story of the story of Ruth you know on your bracelet or whatever it is in other words what you're looking at is the ability to waste energy so what gifts are romantic gifts are actually largely what these are is they are Fitness indicators the they have a if you're if you're sports watcher which I am oh you know sorry the and one of the one of the pitchman of the world one of the better pitchman in the world is Peyton Manning he's got such a boy next door face and demeanor he's just he's just kind of priceless you just he's got honest stamped on across his forehead he's every mother-in-law's dream and Peyton is now it's become the pitchman for I can't remember some I think nationwide insurance company and so now I think Kenny Chesney or there's some some country star that is his sidekick now and so Peyton there's a there's an ad where he and he and Kenny then get off the bus and they're looking over at these women huddled around a table and it's a it's a it's a baby shower and and the girls opening the young lady's opening her gifts and and Peyton says now it should be an insurance policy it's the perfect gift you know and and of course just me I think that's who it is I don't know if it is just a country store name that comes my head but the anyway the he's like rolling his eyes at this big oh fish football player that just obviously doesn't get it but Payton is known to be intelligent and fastidious and so here he is just thinking which and then he sees the little booties come out he's like well that's not good for anything like what good is that it's a it you know they've done a really good job here painting him is this you know the sort of straight-laced utilitarian male that just doesn't get the romantic you just not in them and and this is what romantic is and so to the best of my knowledge Jeffrey Miller is the first person to actually grasp this really it it's at its root and that is that romantic means wasteful and so the the more wasteful a gift is the the more romantic it is so flowers are wasteful so what did the guy do he went all over the valley and he picked out all these flowers and so why is this why is this impressive because he could he was able to get enough food for himself and take care of all of his other business and had the time and energy in excess that he could actually waste it on doing this just said that you could look at them and for a brief few brief moments have your nervous system tickled with the different colors which are pleasant because they're a you know they're reliable sign of ripening fruit in an environment so it's not the actual food which would been practical it's actually you know that would have been Peyton's insurance policy it's in fact wasteful and so the same thing is going to be true of a party you know it's not it's not a romantic party unless there's flowers and and little gift you know fancy napkins and a band and it's wasteful and a wedding dress wasteful wine I just get married and something that you got at Macy's looks good guy said think she look great it's like no we're going to spend $2,500 wasteful okay so these are what these things are more often than not is what gifts are or fitness indicators and so that's why precious metals are a good thing because they're hard to get it's hard to get them and so they happen also flowers wouldn't work if they didn't tickle the nervous system of Stone Age ancestors and the same thing is going to be true precious metals and jewelry that precious metals you know tickle the neural circuits of people and so girls like shiny things shiny things with pretty colors and that are also known to be of materials that are difficult to get okay and hopefully put together by a craftsman that took a great deal of time and energy putting it together wasteful so that's the that's the fundamental story of romantic gifts is that it is a fitness indicator of the giver and and it's also a signal that they were using their excessive Fitness and they're laying it at your feet and they're basically saying I have excess of energy to give and I'm going to give it to you that this is not this is not a trade in other words I'm not looking to give you you know a bunch of apples that I picked for a bunch of oranges no I am I can I can just waste this energy and I'm going to waste it on you that is a major signal indicating that the mail will continue to get more practical things once this phase is over and he starts to get into your into your pants her skirt then we're going to start talking about that he's the the excessive abilities that he has over and above his own survival are clearly now going to be directed towards her children okay so that's that's what this is and I'm sure that that's the evolutionary history of romantic gifts so dr. Locke can you give us an example of a romantic gift that you give him well how about a washer/dryer how does that go we better skip over this it's not it's not it's not a history that went too well I guess we're on the same thing all right a romantic gift I gave was a like a that I gave was like a clothes dryer like that you know that hey you can hang clothes while you're steaming them yeah oh there you go boy we got something we got some things in common air all right and so our males compelled to waste when they find it when they find the woman that you know like that's how it always been curious about because I've met yeah I've met males and females of both sides some of them are just naturally not so concerned with a little bit excess and some were just incredibly stereotypically cheap and don't like to waste yell so the question I have is are males compelled where they suddenly you know they don't really feel the same level of cheapness when they find the mate that's a pair bond and now they're like no yeah I'll spend the money no big deal oh you mean well I'm sure I have a belief that essentially these are if I'm not mistaken what you're going to be seeing here is these are Universal instincts that are in other words these are neural circuits that reside in all normal members of the species and so however there's going to be there's going to be not only individual genetic variation but there's going to be contextual strategy so a guy might be very cheap but suddenly he meets somebody who he feels like is a potential of an offer he can't refuse and suddenly he feels for the first time in his life quote very romantic and he just feels like doing quote romantic things which are very wasteful so the instinct gets activated okay as soon as he seals the deal he's back to being Peyton Manning okay and so I think that that's whereas other people by nature probably simply have that instinct run a great deal hotter and they may be in generally just a far more romantic soul that is willing to do wasteful things go out into the middle of the night under you know a rainstorm and be soaking wet just to I don't know rescue the the little frog that his girlfriend hears chirping you know in the little backyard pool whatever in other words just whatever whatever thing that that doesn't bother this guy is in his soul to do this and it's just he's got you know what can I say he's a Frenchman you know this is he's built and I'm doubtedly you know around the globe there has been individual regional selection sexual selection on this characteristic and and so this is probably I wouldn't doubt that in in future generation said behavior genetics research that we're going to find that instincts like this probably vary regionally you know and so we're probably going to be able to be better than average at predicting what an individual is like on this dimension by virtue of where their ancestors came from you know hundred years ago okay interesting so alright yeah yeah I got the more practical chip I just you know I have restore I have another one hold on a second yeah yeah look Christmas Ike new tires but they were very good two tires and there were there are new tires for a four-wheel drive and she really wanted like white letter you know the fancy-like off-road stuff so they were considerably more expensive and I choked it down so there you go that was yeah yeah that was a very expensive Christmas but hey we did got a big smile yeah hey I like it so what's the least romantic gift you've given Ida just getting just will pass over that I don't want to think about it yeah all right on we go all right so now speaking you know as we go from extreme like of a person now our next questions about dr. Lila how do I beat my genes to get over an extreme dislike for a co-worker I'm highly agreeable and easygoing and usually can get along with almost anyone that being said I currently work with someone who I dislike so much that it makes me just want to quit work so I never have to see them again what's worse is that I'm technically his boss but I don't have enough authority to reprimand him how do I approach the situation without brooding over might extreme dislike of this person and what's going on psychologically that's triggering this extreme volatility well that's a great question and all I can do is guess and without without a call in and sort of going down through nitpicking our way through the little fun subtle details you know I may not be able to come up with anything but I'll try the the fundamental root is an esteem dynamic between our person and the person on the other side so an extreme dislike is being driven by by a manner of this relationship we're probably extreme dislike is usually a derivative of feeling angry and we're usually feeling angry because we feel like we're being treated unfairly so there's something in the the esteem dynamic between these two individuals where our individual believes that the other person is treating them unfairly and I'm not sure how okay now it's possible that the reason why the other person is treating them in fairly is because they themselves feel like they've been mistreated where they're there they are being unfairly judged in some way ie unfairly treating and treated so what we may have is a vicious cycle of steam dynamics now what we can try to do is we can actually grit our teeth and attempt to reverse the vicious cycle and spin it into a virtuous cycle and the way we would do that would be to be very careful and crafty about about starting to to publicly praise this individual and give them positive feedback when it is when it's appropriate okay so this is a so I know that the person listening is saying no I think I'm going to take a hit on my bong first I'm not really interested in listening to this but hear me out what we're attempting to do we have essentially think of a whirlpool in the ocean and it's going clockwise and we're going to try to actually reverse it and to make it go counterclockwise and so we need to do something extreme with this team dynamic in other words we don't know where it started and how but somebody felt mistreated and they retaliated with some kind of some kind of animal signaling to the other person back saying you're an unfair sob and then the other person said what do you mean I'm an adverse obey you're an unfair sob and then around the circle it goes so what we need to do is we see if there's any route to this where we can slam the brake on and then put force and start to spin at the other direction okay now if we do this in other words we we think about over the next you know six weeks where our job in life is to think about you know be looking for moments when that individual deserves any kind of praise and and give it to them so it's not going to be like five times a day because then suddenly this is this we situation where clearly you know there's been a an artificial process we don't want them thinking in it's an artificial process we want them thinking that it's an organic process and so we're going to plan and think about and then figure out it's better even if it's public of other people are watching if other people are not watching that's fine too as long as it's authentic and it's not patronizing we attempt to give the person positive feedback okay now and then we're going to do it more than once and we're going to try to essentially give little blasts of in the Whirlpool blasts trying to blast at the other direction and try to see if we can spin this thing in the other direction now we may not be able to do so okay so if we cannot do this then the next thing that we're going to try to do is I would actually go to your supervisor and say listen this is the situation this is a this is just a sort of I don't know a cancerous relationship it's just not getting any better and I actually have made serious attempts to try to improve it and I've tried to do what I could and it's not improving and it's just it's just no good so I don't know what they were persons workplace structure is and what the options are but there if we put it in our supervisors head but we would like to have this person moved out from underneath us in the power structure and essentially away from us in the work structure there may not be a time to do it now but there may be depend upon the company there may be a way to get that done and our supervisor may say be patient I know that what I understand the issue I may be able to help you on this at some point a little later on down the road but for now you've got to choke it down okay not bad we've now started the wheels in motion and so we're going to try to do it that way I have a a method for helping people try to get through periods that are problematic and that's what I call the mathematize ation of misery so it's useful to to know that your miseries are limited so there's only you may for example put it on the clock how many minutes a day you actually have to interact with this individual and it may turn out that it's 17 minutes a day on average at which point you know that when you're interacting with them you know every minute you're like day 1 minute less 1 minute less and if you etcetera so you essentially get so you realize your day is not actually overwhelmed by the individual it's 17 minutes a day which is not that big a deal and all we have to do is grit our teeth for those 17 minutes you know go eat a few Cheetos as a reward at the end of it and forget it ok that's the Mathemagician of misery you can do that kind of on a daily basis and you can also have it in your mind's eye that there's a plot behind that person's back between you and your supervisor to get you out from under this process this situation which is not good and that it may take us a year to do it or six months at which point you or you can be thinking okay I've got 17 minutes a day times five days a week so I've got 85 minutes I've got 85 minutes times you know maybe 48 weeks so you know whatever this thing is I've got you know 64 hours but you know that's it then it's done ok so then it's almost a joy that when you interact with the guy for five minutes like you know what now it's 64 hours - five minutes chief and you go check it off on a grid in your office so this is this feeling that our suffering is not indefinite it's actually limited and we start to actually enjoy the process of having survived a round of it because we get to go check it off in our office that we're not going to have to do it again after this okay so this is a these are some mental operations that you can use to try to you know essentially get yourself in a what seemingly a position of power over the situation now finally obviously yet let's suppose that there are intractable things we can't change this team dynamic between us and the other individual it turns out that we get no help from the people above there's there's no possible way that this thing is ever going to change etc etc okay well then we have to start thinking about really is this the only job in the world where anybody is ever going to pay me this amount of money for this kind of work because if it is I'm insecure as hell anyway ok so now we have to start to arrive at the concept of a position of power a position of power is are we in you know whatever it is that we want can we live without it the what we want is this job without this guy there can we live without it and the you know the answer is undoubtedly yes if this individual you know has a computer and could write us an email they're not starving and they're not in a halfway house you know I'm saying with food stamps so the idea is and they're theoretically somebody's supervisor who is apparently stable enough to hold a job for more than six weeks so that tells us that the person that wrote into this wrote in to us has some brains and has some stability which means they've got options and you are not mouse trapped into this mess forever it's a choice to be there so the final straw is if we cannot get support if we can't change the dynamic and we cannot get any semblance of support and there's no way to work our way out from out of this situation from within our organization then we are on the job market looking for an equivalent or better job and now it's like hey no problem I can put up with this jerk because the truth is sometime in the next year I'm going to get a job offer and then I'm going to be gone ok so we're in a position of power of knowing that no matter how you look at it the misery is going to be mathematize because you are not a prisoner there you're not a tree okay you're not a victim of circumstances you have the ability to change your circumstances and all we have to do is put up with some hassle so there's those are some ideas about how to mentally approach this kind of a mess fascinating well that leaves beautifully into our next question where the person is actually in a captive he's a college sophomore dr. wild I don't you lose your mind when ignorant people all around you are broadcasting their false beliefs I'm 18 years old college sophomore on the pre-med track and it's extremely irritating when I hear my professors tell me that a Whole Foods plant-based diet is wrong and that so many of the health issues we face today have no relationship to the foods we eat years and years and years I'm left hearing this and I might explode when I'm asked why I eat the way I do I say because of research studies I read on PubMed which seems to be the only response I can give that gets a bit of respect the professor's act like they know far more in this area of study than I do and assume that I'm just a typical uneducated student which is far from the truth got it okay so there's a number of issues here and and so we'll just take a few of them and see where this goes the first thing that we're going to see here is that this young man I assume it's a young man because he's pretty pretty argumentative so therefore there's a good chance that that's true but it might not be true we've got some we've got some hell raising young young women who are going to educate the world about health too so so let's suppose that this that's suppose this young person is is now operating as a normal human and the normal human says when I find superior information I want to bring it to the village and not only do I want to bring it to the village I want credit okay I want credit this is the esteem process at work so the the safest person in the village the person who has the safest jeans is the one that is considered the most valuable so your value is is a multiple a determined index having to do with your how good-looking you are and how smart you are and how athletic you are and how well you sing and dance and do other things and how pleasant you are and how tough you are and how fair you are and everything else into the Sun but one of the things that's involved is how good are you at ferreting out new information that's really useful for the village so smart people specifically aren't trying to impress people with their crochet okay or their Beach muscles smart people stock and trade is I can bring new information at the village and and I want my appropriate amount of steam coming back from you so this person at 18 years old already knows more than you know ninety-eight percent of the physicians in the world this is true and and the professor's are not that knowledgeable surprisingly and for various and sundry reasons why why this is the case and so however it's also true that that there's a reason why there's actually widespread a degree of ignorance in this arena and that's because it's more subtle than people know the truth is actually more subtle than people are aware of and that is that you know super healthy living diet wise is only going to add a very few years of lifespan to the average individual it's not to hear it told by you know plant-based or healthy based eating physicians it's as if it's a huge issue it is a huge issue on an individual level for a very sick person it might be the difference between dying of heart attack at 64 and living the 94 so the you know on an individual issue it could be huge but very few normal human beings would ever die at 64 and not with unusual levels of pathology and unusual levels of behavior that was really seriously counterproductive to their health that anyone would recognize so typical people are going to live to mid 70s to mid 80s and at that level the difference between a sort of an average actor with average health behaviors and a superior actor with superior health behavior the difference in life expectancy is very small it's about three to four years and so therefore when people are trying to parse their way through the various variables that may be responsible for for these differences it's not going to be at all clear what is true and what isn't true so and that's why the professor's wind up unless they actually grasp the overall argument in our or we're particularly impressive comprehensive studies they're not going to know and so by they're going to be lost in the weeds that are pretty tall looking for a speck sizes that they're not going to be able to see and so some whippersnapper who comes in there and says hey you're missing the boat they know they're not missing any major boat which they're really not and they're so they are pretty accurate and so when we tried to jump up and down and make a big fuss about this and try to get a bunch of a Steam for it they're in no way interested in they know they're on pretty solid ground and they're not going to listen and they're not motivated to listen so we're signaling to them that they are not deserving of status that they have according to the hierarchy they've rightfully earned and then our young whippersnapper is all bent out of shape because they know the right which incidentally they are they just may not be accurate in terms of magnitude the but since they know that they've got some important information they're trying to bring it to the village and get credit and they're not getting any credit at all so this is going to be very frustrating now so the important thing here is to understand that what you're after is you're after esteem and you're after esteem from these people and you're you're thinking that you should deserve it they're there they are have a Content area interest that is the same as yours in principle and so as a result when you're bringing new information it's like you've got a bunch of people that are interested in bows and arrows and then you bring a better version and they're basically saying not interested and so it's extremely frustrating and so I understand this so instead what we need to do is to look at this problem just a little bit differently so this young person is apparently pre-med and so they are they may they very well may wind up becoming a doctor maybe so be fine if it's true if you want to do this and jump through all those hoops and do this for a living that's a perfectly fine thing to do with your life now however I remember having a an incident sometime in the last 25 years when I was in a legal proceeding and I was concerned that the other side wasn't going to be telling the truth and the you know this was going to make me look bad and so I talked to my sister who is a crackerjack attorney and I explained the situation to her and she said that's just beautiful nothing could be better so my sister was always happy when the other side would lie and cheat and do all kinds of other things because it would set up a pattern to when the the finding of fact would eventually get done we would we would be able to display the entire thing in context and everything was going to be fine now obviously you know innocent people have gotten in trouble in court and people've lost in court but from the standpoint of my sisters perspective my sister was very patient with with essentially the other team not playing fairly and just felt like now this is this is fine this is going to play into your hands quite well and I would say that the same thing is true here you're 18 years old as you watch these people up there you're watching people who are not curious enough and idle intellectually courageous enough to actually grasp the fact that there's been major innovations in thinking and that there's better information and so they're just going to keep telling the same old story and you are an innovator and it means that most of your students on the left and the right they're going to become medical doctors are not going to have the intellectual courage or the interest to follow the truth the way you're annoyed knows is telling you to follow it and as a result there you'll meet them all again on their way to the middle and there they'll be cutting out gall bladders and making their good money and doing whatever it is that they're doing but you have the opportunity to do something very special which is to actually coach sick people into being well now we don't wish that to be the only person that can do it but if nobody else is going to do it guess what the doors wide open for you so what you're seeing actually is is not bad news at all it's short term frustrating because you're not getting the status at 18 years old that you wish that you had but you know what it wouldn't be reasonable for you to get that status now the but be patient okay so the the mediocre mediocre intellectual curiosity and application will lead to lives of of you know people in this your competitors in the industry will be remain mediocre and if you do not remain mediocre you're going to be special so the the specialness that you're evidencing now will be more valuable later because of the resistance that you're observing now and that's how that is this is miss frustrating I was a young psychologist I could not stop talking about evolutionary psychology so any young side College attorney psychologists that I ran into I was immediately starting to download them laying some truth on them and what I got back was disinterest and some degree of what he call it yeah even worse than disinterest a little bit of eye ball rolling and really nobody cares and of course I'm thinking you got to be kidding me he bunch of idiots apparently so okay they weren't stupid they had no intellectual courage and no curiosity he might have had plenty of IQ but without curiosity and intellectual courage you know what you meet them all again on their way to the middle and that's what they are okay so today none of those people mmm how's people listening to me lay here I have with this goofy little radio show so but we got 5,000 6,000 people listening it's no great accomplishment but the people that are listening are not normal they're bright intellectually curious intelligent people and they're paying attention and they're trying to learn okay I don't know of another psychologist that has five people including their own parents or mother-in-law or anybody else that's willing to listen to them okay but I do and it's very gratifying to have walked a road that was uncomfortable okay uncomfortable plenty of negative feedback plenty of people rolling their eyes rolling to covering their ears and saying no you know that's sexist that's racist that's nationalistic that's this that's that that's cultural this I go you're a free enterprise to sell people ought to live yeah no I don't think so you know how dare you okay there's no there's no end to it so yeah intellectual courage when you when you discover the the laziness mediocrity and and generally self-inflicted in incompetence people that don't have the chops to actually follow a road that's a little bit uncomfortable just relax just like my sister would say it's fine don't worry about it okay it'll play out just fine in the end okay so be patient
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