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Episode 123: Placebo effect, Stockholm syndrome, Listener's son having mental breakdown
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all right so as I was listening to the introduction I remembered a couple of people have emailed me asking me where we can listen to the live show and it dawned on me as I was listening to today's introduction that I didn't even include it in the intro and the outro so I apologize for that for listeners would like to listen to us live the you can listen to through blog talk radio comm slash beat your jeans and just select the most recent show on Wednesdays at 8:30 p.m. Pacific Standard Time that we can listen to us live if you don't listen to us live you can listen to us your regular podcast app so apologies for that and I'll include that in the next intro from now on so now that we got that of the way whoops yes alright so got a couple of questions today on certain psychological phenomenon that you know that I've wondered about since I was you know I took a few intro level psychology classes I was no genius at all when it came to psychology but a couple classes they were always just curious to me and then you know I saw movies hostages and medical movies and so the placebo effect of Stockholm Syndrome we're always at the forefront of these so dr. Lila we are ready to get the Doug download on either of these shows after a while is the painful effect actual psychological common on or more of us - typical one where it encompasses the factors that you can't quite sort out good good question it's a well it's been a question of the ages you know for 50 years the I'm not I wouldn't call myself knowledgeable in this in this arena the I know some things that that probably some people that are talking about this may not know or they may not mention or gets overlooked by journalists etc so so let's let's talk first about what we know placebo effects let me let me explain why this gets tricky what people are thinking placebo effects are things like well if I think that there's a pill that helps me then if I take the pill there's some neurochemical process of hope that helps me actually improve you know the regardless of the fact that the pill itself is inert that's the classic concept of the placebo effect now the so we can see how there would be some placebo effects with specifically with respect to hope they would be short-lived given the fact that if the if the the person's brain is not capable of excreting some hormonal pattern that actually fixes the underlying condition then obviously it's not going to work the second of all we can you might say well now what about in this psychological arena after all if everything is just psychological anyway if someone believes that they take some pill it's going to make them less depressed or less anxious wouldn't this work well the interesting thing is is that the medications are actually designed to do antidepressants don't work so if those don't work what do we think of placebo is going to do so the so it's going to turn out that the placebo effects have that they have to watch out for so many of our listeners are sophisticated enough that would they will have heard of things like the double-blind placebo-controlled trial in medicine and you you're like well why would we have to if placebo effects were were not substantial why would we have to control for them here's why if you were to take for example antidepressants antidepressants often have as part of their chemical nature they agitate the nervous system and so if you have people take an antidepressant it's not without these in immediate effects whereas if you take a piece of chalk that's colored like the antidepressant and a yellow pill or whatever the heck it is then that shock will not have the same agitating effect so if you're in a clinical trial you're somebody that's depressed and you know they're telling you well you know there's this new fancy thing that they've been working on a Johns Hopkins and Pfizer that you know it's supposed to be really really helpful for depression and so you're going to be part of the political trial now you might get the real pill we might get the placebo so you know they're going to flip a coin and you'll never know which one you got well you can imagine how problematic this is scientifically if the yellow pill that has the antidepressant in it agitates the nervous system it actually does something so a few days into this the person's like oh cool I'm in the real drug trials okay and so as a result they they report some positive feelings about this yeah I think you know I think things are going to get better so there were going to be more optimistic because they and they think that they're getting quote the real drug they got some so when they ran these trials against a placebo control that did not have an agitating effect on the nervous system then it turned out that the quote real drugs were doing better than the placebos however somebody realized wait a second we got a problem the subjects know what condition they're in and if subjects know what condition they're in they will start reporting you know on their hope and what they think is happening et cetera etc rather than on anything else they won't they won't be overwhelmingly happy and excited it will just start to influence a few subjects those self-reports of you know whether they think they might be getting a little bit better okay so for - so as a result of this you have to in your placebo you have to control so the placebo has similar noticeable side-effects to the drug that you are testing and so in this case when they start to give people a little bit of caffeinated deep some little some some inner till relative theoretically relative to depression but a little bit agitating to the system then it turns out that lo and behold there's no difference in the two groups okay so so this is now an appropriate placebo control that's what we're that's the issue so we have to when you give people something they may expect that they're going to get better and they may start reporting some effects and everybody can get all excited about it because they're getting something that doesn't mean they're actually getting better it just means that the reports are in reporting an improvement you might say well isn't that isn't that isn't that where the rubber hits the road and isn't it isn't that a placebo effect in itself and the answer is yeah you could sort of call it bad except that a month later there's going to be no placebo effect in other words the person is going to stop reporting this bump and how great it is that they think they're doing because they think the Rother drug so this is why you have to if you're going to try to test the value of something like some psychiatric medical psychoactive medication like that you need to have it placebo controlled and not only that the placebo control itself has to mimic the drug any of the drugs effects that the the active drug is having so that the person clearly is blind and cannot in for what condition they're at so that's how it is that so that's sort of the story now when placebo effects themselves have been measured over the decades the at best the effect sizes are infinitesimally small very very tiny I think I think the average effect size of the average placebo is some will move we'll move one one side of the cohort maybe three percentile points and at best and so it's kind of the amount that you would expect possibly expectations to bump up behind you know just a little bit of hope so in essence placebos are are no are really this inert and the the effect that we're really seeing from placebo is a little bit of short-term hope it comes into the situation so think about this for example I want you to imagine how depressed you are if you're sitting in a hospital bed and they tell you that you have that you have terminal cancer and so it would be a terrible thing but let's just picture yourself there and then a doctor comes in and says you know they send to your cancerous terminal cancer but it turns out that we have a new treatment and it's 85% chance of fixing it and so and when I've actually looked at your chart I think that your chart has an exceptionally high chance even better than the 85% chance that we've seen from this new study now do you think that new person is going to feel better you're going to feel unbelievably better now are they going to be any better well they're not going to be any better physically and all of that hope doesn't magically cause their endocrine system to somehow start fighting the cancer better and they're miraculously happier and now it's going to turn out that there's a five percent increased likelihood of their survival never going to happen okay so the placebo effects are essentially non-existent they are short term extremely modest little effects they could sometimes be larger if we don't control carefully for conditions and we wind up leaking expectations of effects to to clients or patients and they wind up marking on the little sheet you know a little higher and it turns out that it's all statistically significant and somebody gets all excited about it so this is the story of the placebo the notion that people are thinking about placebos which is that the placebo itself somehow miraculously causes there to be you know neurological and Inter chronological changes in the body that now miraculously start tearing whatever ill it is that the person is was seeking the medicine for because it magically starts to figure out how to do that because somehow the hope is healthier and so forth that turns out to not be true so that's that is the story of the placebo effect and the fact that even though is is a non effect it could be a pesky pesky and important issue to control for in short-term studies because of the self reports of individuals you won't see that for example you won't see these kind of effects in something that has more objective measurements for example high blood pressure so you could you could have someone go to some guru and learn how to sit in the lotus position and have them work on their high blood pressure and they really think it's helping because they can be far more relaxed and they can get into a deep state of relaxation but when we're going to measure their blood pressure changes at the doctors officer in the study there will be no effect and that's because meditation is not going to reduce blood pressure so the no relaxation training no cognitive April therapy nothing ok so exercise is going to have almost no effect so what will have an effect on blood pressure exactly what we would think would have an effect on blood pressure which is to actually deal with the underlying problem that is driving high blood pressure two things would be clogging of people's arteries through their diet or also excess and sodium in the diet that is putting too much pressure on the kidneys and therefore the blood volume is too high and therefore there's essentially more fluid in the system and the pressure goes up just the pressure and a water hose goes at the future on the water higher so oh the what will what will cause a dramatic change in blood pressure will be a dietary change so 20 years ago John McDougall showed that a change from a conventional diet to his diet for 10 days drop the blood pressure on average 17 over 13 points meditation is zero exercises about three weight loss is a couple of points per you know half a kilogram or kilogram or whatever it is may be a point per kilogram very very very small effect sizes for weight loss etc so when you look through the the effect sizes what you're going to see is wet sodium and the biggest of exercise ever demonstrated in any scientific literature on weight loss was water only fasting so water only fasting is the ultimate method for detoxing the system allowing the kidneys to catch up detox the blood of of excess sodium and then drive down the blood volume to the point where people lose a bunch of water weight very quickly and their blood pressure comes down all the pressure comes on the kidneys Alan Goldhamer and I demonstrated this you know 15 20 years ago in a study we did showing an average effect size of 37 over 13 points by by far the largest effect size ever shot this is incredibly the reviewers at the New England Journal of Medicine number one didn't believe us and number two they then wrote and said how do you know it wasn't a placebo effect and this is where the medications are acting they don't point that while reversing beauty the beauty of this is that I have no idea what the more on on the other end of this review is thinking so if there could be a placebo effect that could cause a 37 point drop in blood pressure why aren't they using it clinically okay where do they have any evidence that there's anything like that that could ever have such an effect they don't have anything so that's why they use blood pressure medication which puts pressure on various systems Drive blood pressure down and we'll talk it down on average about 12 over 6 points so anyway yeah that the long answer to this store is placebo effects are nothing to put any hope in for anything and they are pesky terms scientifically about depending upon what our dependent measures are we have to be careful to not get tricked into thinking that something is working when in effect we've just queued our subjects are our patients into thinking something could happen therefore they are feeding us what's known as a demand characteristic in other words we're we're pulling this out of them behind some hope and expectation and essentially wanting to give us good news and thirdly if you actually have high blood pressure and you want to get rid of it don't meditate come to Nathan ger spelled fasting escape in Southern California and get take yourself a timeout and have him supervisor what sort water fast we feed you with healthy low-sodium food and you'll come out of there as if you've taken ten years off burden off your kidneys and you'll be healthy all right now move thank you very much all right I've been let's move on yeah it seems like the the water fasting in the study that you and dr. autumn are published what would that be the opposite of a placebo where where they believe where does work but they believe it doesn't work right what do we have beautiful yeah I don't know what we call that we call that I don't know who raised this term the we call that a counterintuitive result but I don't know who phrased the term but I quoted the late Carl Sagan who who said that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and that makes sense that's a that's a reasonable proposition for anybody who's making an extraordinary claim we believed that water fasting is going to be one of the most effective things that anybody could ever do to heal themselves and we we demonstrated that with the leading associated associated correlate of death of disability in the United States which would be popular pressure and we showed the laws of exercise ever shown and we know medications everybody off all their medications and we just essentially let the body heal and unwind according to mechanisms built into the genetic code to do exactly that and so yes so we we believe we have extraordinary claims to make and we believe we have extraordinary evidence and now we're getting many major researchers coming talk to us to want to document and observe what it is that we're saying all right and after that mama go all right fantastic well speaking of locking people in a place and fasting them now we come up with next question which is how comes great good luck yet so dr. Lyle how much truth is there behind Stockholm Syndrome and this listener is asking specifically the idea that women were frequently kidnapped by males of other villages and the more compliant women were more successful genetically oh you got to love our listeners the the what's beautiful about evolutionary psychology once you get the hang of it it can be a little bit like a Wild West Frontier so everybody starts seeing possible it's like a new heuristic it's a new tool in people's thinking toolbox and they start speculating about evolutionary processes all over the place and sometimes sometimes a wild scattered spark a genius and then the rest of it a bunch of people selling snake oil and you know how else would we have expected it the know this distance said nothing to do with a steady diet of women being kidnapped from somebody else's village and etc etc that's that has nothing to do with this the Stockholm Syndrome is this has to do had to do with a I believe is a bank robbery in Stockholm a few decades ago and the the captors the captives surprised authorities when they wouldn't testify or speak out against their captors after it was all over and if you think about this you know so it was kind of this bizarre thing and a lot of it was made of it and people wrote books about it and you know a lot of psychodynamic you know do beard pulling by the psychodynamic folks like well they identified with it whatever the hell that they identified with them whatever the hell that means okay the know let's let's break this down to straight honest evolutionary thinking the reason why anybody does anything is they're running a cost-benefit analysis so let's now look at how why it is I might not speak out a bunch against a bunch of dangerous Psychopaths that that held me captive in a bank okay now let's let's let me think here let me stroke my beard which I cannot grow now let's see if we can think of it true okay all right let me see now okay there he is in the courtroom that son of a bitch who held a gun at my face and was yelling and was a terrifying psychopath who could have easily killed me at cetera all right so here I am now and now we're in court and that son of a bitch is still alive now now what could I do now who could I side with the judge and the prosecutor and everybody wants me to say these negative things okay but that son of a bitch is still out and alive now I look at that and I say okay let me think about this I got a couple of choices if I say bad things about him there's a statistical increased likelihood that he'll be locked up if I say good things about him if they lock him up great no problem he's locked up but if they don't lock the son of the dead Chuck and I said bad things about him that's bad that could be very bad for me and so in that case maybe it's in my best interest to actually say perfectly pleasant things about this guy even you know even though he did bad things and I damn well know he did bad things so I think that's a little healthier understanding of what may would may happen in a few cases we quote Stockholm Syndrome I don't believe is a widely supported phenomenon in social psychology I don't believe that there's any strong evidence that this is a this is a common phenomenon I think it's a relatively uncommon phenomenon that surprised people in Sweden on this with it with a few of these people were were essentially probably intimidated I don't think that they quote identified and joined the captors village or thought positively about them now I think that this was a a slick self-interested Seabee that they ran and in order to be credible I mean the nervous system is is clever enough to actually put on a pretty good show and possibly even confuse the person themselves a little bit and in order to essentially make a credible public display so that the the son-of-a-bitch on the other side there was a psychopath waving a gun around that one day might be free won't be coming after me for any reason so I think that that's the quote Stockholm Syndrome and I think it's uh it's much better explained through a very simple cost-benefit analysis Wow come on all right alright so now we turn the ship around a little bit and one of our listeners has a hold on a second a lot of psycho oh I got I got to say one more thing Alan bull Tamara said that sometimes people for people leave true north and they start preaching the virtues of healthy living that it is suggested that this is nothing other than the Stockholm Syndrome that's taken captive so if you come to Nate's place at passing escape and it turns out that you're preaching healthy living after this just beware could be to stockholm syndrome you been okay and to experience this on your own you can visit WWF Ashton escape calm yeah there it is there it is again alright alright let's go on fantastic alright well one of our listeners I had the situation with her son so dear dr. Lyle my son is 26 years old and he's still living with us he quit college in his fourth year due to a mental breakdown then came back home to live with us well that was four years ago and he still can't get his life together he's got a full-time job that pays minimum wage but that isn't nearly enough to pay for all of expenses we have to pay for his occasional car repairs his car insurance is health insurance he's been seen a same therapist for the past four years and he made little progress and he's still angry he has one or two friends but views most people as quote shitheads hmm and can be overbearing when interacting with people the word he's very disagreeable constantly he'll only when his father and I make suggestions on how he might improve his life he becomes angry and makes excuses I sense that he's afraid of life how can we help our son become independent and build lasting friendships signed a concerned mom oh my goodness okay well I can I can tell you what I think the problem is but of course in any given situation there could be subtle details that could be important and it would change my mind if I were to learn what they were so so I begin I began my my thoughts about this with the fact that he was he had some kind of a breakdown and I don't know what that means and so I don't know I don't know what he went through whether we've got some you know schizophrenic genic genes located in there and that he's he's actually very odd interpersonally and even though we had gone to college and so he had some IQ in there but possibly above average I too that could buffer him from some of the dire consequences of some odd social characteristics it's possible that we have somebody that has that actually has some serious mental handicaps that are working against him okay so if that's true then I wouldn't necessarily give them the advice that I'm about to give so I say those things just because they used the word breakdown I don't know what that means I don't know what this young man experienced and what what sort of essentially psychiatric susceptibilities that were sitting on the now let's suppose that the breakdown we talked about was just being overwhelmed irritated a lot of negative feedback from everybody didn't see the point of school and that what we have is uh was in a sort of an angry exhausted frustrated disagreeable young person different issue and the reason why this might be what it is that we're seeing in two reasons number one it is statistically more likely that this is what we're saying than the other and also that he's held with a full-time job for apparently quite a while and and if you hold a full-time job even though you can be pretty dysfunctional holding a full-time job most highly dysfunctional people are not going to hold a full-time job for one approved time so if he sell a full-time job for quite a while he's been stable in that job that would speak to the the likelihood that we actually have a fundamentally stable situation psychiatrically so when I when I say psychiatrically what I'm really talking about is major mental illness you know these are these genetically mediated problems like the schizophrenic type of things things related to that that are that are odd schizoid also things like bipolar disorder etc so that these are these sort of major psychiatric very angry people a lot of times can actually be paranoid and they can be quite functional and quite intelligent and they can hold down jobs but they they can have a paranoid streak and they're angry and suspicious etc so all this is a long-winded reason why I'm given a long-winded caveat is because what I'm about to say is fairly dramatic and aggressive relative to what the other therapist is going to do and and this is how I see things in in most cases so mostly what we see is a twenty six-year-old is pretty smart capable of holding a full-time job who is angry appeals which means he feels like he's being treated unfairly by various and sundry individuals not so dysfunctional that he gets into it too badly it worked as much to lose his work so he can temper this down but he's angry at his parents I think and he's also his parents I see that that he needs help financially for this and needs help financially for that so they're paying for this and they're paying for that now he's living at home so let's just do a little bit of math here so the math is if he's living at home with his parents and he's working full-time blast I knew I don't know what the lowest minimum wages in the United States Nate do you have any idea I believe the federal minimum wage I actually don't know but I could probably google it faster than my memory can recall compare my wages 725 okay so it's possible he's making 725 an hour so if he's making 725 an hour he's grossing about twelve or thirteen hundred dollars a month which means he's taking home you know a thousand or eleven hundred dollars a month why he's not paying for some car insurance and why he's not paying for zone dental fillings and why he's not paying for his own food etc and Weis not ponying up three or four hundred dollars a month for rent is beyond me okay and the so what we want is we would want to make life at home financially uncomfortable and we want to make life in general financially uncomfortable and the reason why we want to make life financially uncomfortable is that he needs to feel his poverty poverty is the result of a few things potentially it's the result of laziness it's the result of ignorance and it's the result of you know very bad luck and bad circumstances in his case he's probably ignorant in the sense that he doesn't know what to do and hasn't learned effective skills in order to be worth more money but he's making okay so that's fine as long as he's got some brains he's capable of learning those skills now he's also going to be as an energy conservation device he's not particularly motivated to go to the hustle to learn those skills as long as he has a no no material deprivation so this is why he needs to be paying for his own food in his own rent his own house and so on car insurance okay he he essentially needs to be putting his own bills which is suddenly going to make him highly anxious all upset it's all not fair it's no problem this is about goose is called an adjustment now the odd and it means that he's going to have to live in in less posh circumstances than he's in he's going to have to rent you know get a rent a room in somebody's house because that's going to be what he's going to be able to afford as he pays for everything else now I wouldn't necessarily land them all at once and I wouldn't land at all in 30 days but I'd let him know I'd give him like a 90 day lead time and if you're his mom and you're worried he just can't be that tough on him you could be pretty tough on him you can be a lot tougher on him then than you would think now at this point I like people to remember that the the job in the Stone Age was you worked until you made sure that you were safe and fed so you didn't decide that you're going to just work eight hours so we got people now that think if they work over 40 hours a week they're going to die okay truth is is that a typical animal works an awful lot more than forty hours a week so if you want to do this get yourself a beehive and notice that those things are working every day and they're working all day long so there's nothing is going to nothing will kill this kid if you ask to have one full-time job for 40 hours may ask to have another pipe to part-time job where he works one day a week at car wash and pulls in another you know 60 70 dollars a day four days a month and another two or three hundred bucks suddenly miraculously we can pay for more and so material deprivation is the incentive for animals to get moving and not only did they get moving if they're human or any other animal they try to move as efficiently as they can to get as many resources as they can per muscular contraction and so that's called getting a skill okay so suddenly he's going to be he's got a brain in there it's 26 years old was possible to be college-educated he has a genius inside that head for energy conservation and he will figure out what is the market want I e where do they pay the highest and what do I have to do to get there right now all yes dues bitch and demonstrate his anger to his parents and then miraculously like a genie out of a bottle okay here comes the resources this is uh this is because he's got parents that a feel themselves over a barrel relative to a the most expensive thing in the world this is a gene copy and they are they're very very worried that this young man is in trouble and they're not sure how to help him and they're paying for his therapy for the last four years a new style of therapy if in fact we don't have a compromised psychiatric individual which I don't think we do but but I couldn't say this obviously you can't diagnose people without ever even knowing anything about their background but the sound of this sounds to me like probably what we have is a disagreeable slash entitled young man just by nature know through no fault of his own he's got himself a 70/30 chip in there and he's irritated that he doesn't get more from the world given his his efforts he's got a lot of company so the this doesn't make him unusual just makes you can make life difficult and so what we what we want to do is we want to bring him into adulthood at a reasonably you know reasonably fast pace so that he suddenly learns that he's going to have to hustle and we learned something else some of the anger that he is displaying and he's displaying towards the parents is is that he doesn't even know this and but this could be a very substantial component of the young man's anger and frustration the I believe I'm getting the name right and if I don't I'm sorry I believe it was the psychiatrist Eric burn probably fifty years ago talked about three communicate styles and gave birth to what's known as transactional analysis somebody could look it up while we're talking about I believe that was Eric Bern I could be wrong the transactional analysis had a big heyday in the 1960s and 70s as people could see the truth in it and then tried to develop like a whole psychological psychobabble theory around it and you know it it was kind of like you know pretty a pretty nice bolt on a 747 you know it's it's you know it's nice it's a nice piece but in eight the whole ship so otherwise it's not some big theory of psychology but is significant enough so so let me describe I'd actually know that there's been any science on it but as a clinician it's very obvious that this is true the what Byrne described was that people's communications go in a few very simple patterns that they're essentially taking either the role of a parent a child or an adult and so he described transactions I you could analyze the transactions between people they could be adult to adult so you go up to a clerk at the counter and you say where's the nearest Starbuck and the clerk says two blocks down to the left that's adult to adult communication um here's here's a child coming up to some guy guy's lady said oh my god I I just got to get to my Starbucks oh well where where's the Starbucks okay now the clerk recognizes that this person's in this panicked needy mode that's childlike mode and so now there what's happening is it's forcing them into a parental role okay and a parental role by its very genetic predisposition is altruistic and so now you dare take a predator go relax now let me help you now suddenly we get a whole nother level of effort and energy and and potentially altruistic and was a sacrifice of their own energy towards this individual that's in the child role now children are designed with with manipulative repertoire in order to get resources from big people particularly their parents and so they make interesting noises to get them and so some of those noises are called whining and crying okay the those are methods to to signal to the adults that they are that they are out of control there's important resources that they want and they need parental help to get those resources okay now it's going to turn out that there's another manipulative technique that sits inside of people and you'll also see very often in children and that is that you will see anger so anger is another side to the whining and crying the whining and crying is you know I thought fair and I need more resources I need your help anger is I'm not being treated fairly and I'm pissed off and I'm going to retaliate okay so this young man is essentially signaling his anger and he's signaling in and around his parents and when his parents make suggestions about how to be more independent ie you know pick up your own boots pick up your life by your bootstraps put it out a little bit more energy maybe you need to do this and do that to become more effective no you didn't want to hear any part of it and so this is you'll see children do this children will oscillate between anger and tears anger and tears okay so you'll watch them it's very interesting to watch them sometimes they're frustrated they'll start crying if that doesn't work the nervous system will assess that it's not working and then switch to plan B which is anger okay and that if that doesn't work they'll switch back to pathetic mode so they will oscillate so this young man is going to you sitting in anger mode which is working it's continuing to have the parents provision him what we're going to do what I would do is I would essentially gently but firmly tell them essentially adult-to-adult guess what you're you're a full-fledged adult now you're 26 years old you're extremely bright and competent and you've demonstrated your ability to you know do solidly in the adult world by holding down a full-time job it's now time for us to really step out of your your life in a big way and really let you run your own show okay that's how we do it so we're going to do this and 90 days from now you need to find your own place take care of this bill take care of that bill will stake you will still take care of this bill in that bill but you are now going to take care of this this this this this that you're not taken care of now okay all right well the first thing we're going to see is a bunch of anger but then after the anger dies down and that doesn't work then we're going to see the tears and the whining oh mom I just don't know that I could do it okay so now he's going to slip into that mode to try to yank on the parental all tourism don't buy it okay keep keep the conversation right adult to adult I understand you're anxious about that but you know what we got a lot of confidence in you and you really believe that you're very resourceful and we believe that you can manage this and if we didn't we would push you to do it and we wouldn't be doing this but we really actually have a great deal of confidence that you can do it ie adult-to-adult you're not banging on my altruistic chip and I'm not buying it could be pleasant and firm but adults who adult they get it they're their human source code will read what's happening and what's very interesting when you do this is that you can shut people's anger and tears down very very quickly uh you know psychodynamic therapist would say you've repressed them and we haven't let them express their feelings and process it's like no no no no what we did was we shifted them to an adult to adult communication style and we've shut down a manipulative strategy that the individual was running totally unconsciously and along with the manipulative stretch the running they are actually having the feelings okay they're not like making this up they didn't they didn't learn this or plot it out with it with a protractor and a fine point pencil no this is genetic this is it it's like how can I get resources well I can cry okay we'll try that oh I'm gonna get angry I'm going to try that notes this is what they're doing they're a jukebox in there they're hitting strategies so this young man by his very nature hits the anger strategy but once we once we Stonewall that strategy and show him the new the New Deal he's going to hit the terror strategy I dig big figures extremely high likelihood that we're going to see that when they when he hits that strategy be prepared okay it's like now don't buy it you keep sending him adult-to-adult signals and you'll find once he finds that strategy doesn't work the kid will take a deep breath and realize okay okay I guess I got to do it and he was still single since probably signal some hangers he's going out the door is a last stitch ditch effort to try to get some resources but once he's on his own and has to fire up his creativity and his energy he will he will discover a stream of self-esteem and increased confidence as he is successful at managing these these challenges and a better life so that's that is the strategy that we use for the situation and and that's done that many times and very successfully all right fantastic well hopefully this son doesn't have Stockholm Syndrome and you can't leave the house just kidding just
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