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Episode 121: Dating after appearance change, Disagreeable Doug, Flooding the Circuits, Managing anger
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all right good evening everybody it's Nate G here along with dr. Doug Lyall dr. Lyle how you doing this fine evening good about yourself not too bad well it looks like dr. Lyle your team just won the NBA Finals last week congratulation actually that's not my team the uh it's the team in my local area but I'm always an underdog cheer so it was too easy it was too easy for those guys no all right well we are talking today we got a couple of interesting questions recent question a very very interesting question we're going to start with this a little bit different on the title I tiled it titled we're going to yeah we're going to add one question in today but let's just go with it so dear dr. Lyle I'm a 24 year old female I have lost over 115 pounds following a starch-based diet I'm currently a hundred 25 pounds so I still have a lot of fat to lose to look and feel optimally but my question is about how to deal psychologically with loose skin as a young female my goal is to remove it with surgery but I'm not sure if that's going to happen because of financial reasons you've mentioned that when we look for a pair bond we should avoid sex for 10 pay dates and here's my question how should I bring up the loose skin when talking to guys that I'm interested in how do I tell them that I was once obese and I look worse when the clothes are off I don't want to feel like I'm lying to someone and wasting their time by not showing my body for such a long time is it even possible to be sexually attractive with loose skin as a female how do men feel about women with the right amount of muscle and fat but a bit too much skin it's really difficult for me to deal with this problem psychologically so I really hope to hear your take on it okay this is a this is a very good question for for a variety of reasons so let's I mean I'm going to give you the overarching way that I analyze these problems and then we will use then we will work our way to the specifics for this individual question the the first thing that I think about when I'm looking at problems is the first thing I try to figure out is whether the problem is solvable so if the problem is I don't know stage 4 you know pancreatic cancer then the the problem is not solvable so I don't know maybe it could be maybe some some miracle thing might happen and and maybe some experimental treatment it hits a lever in a gene somewhere and maybe the person survives but I don't think so so there are problems that are solvable and problems that are not solvable so if you've got a child with some significant social disabilities and you would like them to be normal or some major cognitive deficits and you'd like them to be above average and have a really good life and earn a good income etc these things aren't going to happen so we have to solve we have to actually look at the problem from a different perspective and see what can be done and then we do the best that we can and sometimes the problems are not solvable so the first thing I always ask myself when I'm listening to a person's problem is I'm asking myself whether the problem is solvable in this case the problem is solvable so the person has done an outstanding job there are very few people that have ever lost 100 pounds and she sounds like she did not do this in some hokey fashion she did it by adopting a starch-based diet and so this is terrific so she's gone from essentially 290 pounds to 175 pounds a brilliant work now so now the issue is just kind of interested in dating because she can start to feel that a hundred seventy-five pounds she's literally starting to get close to back in the game and as a result of that now she's dealing with the fact that she can see that that she's got this aesthetic problem with her skin now is the problem solvable well the problem is right right now we are a little uncertain as to what the body is going to do with with the whole situation at 24 she's fortunate because she's young enough but there's enough elasticity probably that a lot of a lot of things can be done now the solution I don't I haven't been down this road with enough people to to know very much about what's what our options are in terms of cosmetic surgery here but probably the problem is very solvable so now we're looking at quote financial reasons well financial reasons that this magnitude this problem is solvable so the I don't know what such a surgery might cost might cost thirty thousand dollars there might be a there might be a much less expensive but equally talented ability to do this do it doing it in you know I don't know Singapore or Cambodia and it might be able to be done for six thousand dollars and we may be able to find that it could be done super what probably Singapore's twice as much but thank them for is about cheap the uh but the but the point is is that you could you could have a really first-rate Mexican cause cosmetic therapy or cosmetic surgery clinic somewhere where six thousand dollars cash gets you done you know somebody that really knows what they're doing and you can see all their work and you could see other people that have been with them and you could talk to people that have been through their clinic in the last you know ninety days and you can do your due diligence to really find out and there may be a solution there that's very affordable now or you may say no I can't do that I don't have a passport and I don't want to get one and I'm and I don't trust anything else this is my life on the line here so forget it I'm going to go to some guy that did is you know postdoc at UCLA and I'm going to do it that way good no problem at which point you may need to save you know forty thousand shekels and you may need to put this thing together which means that it may take you getting an extra job in working weekends and saving every scrap of that money until we go three years and save up the money no trivial trick okay but is the problem solvable yeah it's solvable so I'm not worried about a problem that solvable this is just how convenient or inconvenient it is so from from my standpoint the we begin the opening question with saying listen if the problem is solvable it's solvable and it's just a matter of how inconvenient it is and to to have to work and save and I don't know put a go thing online somewhere where people are going to contribute to this for for you you know all pony up $50 right away if you get one of those going okay I'll I'll make it a hundred okay so the point is wrote it I won't i won't cheap you out whoever you are so me the point is is that there's a way and the we take that way and we we do an excellent job of it we do our homework and we get the problem solved okay so we may not be ready for the market for three years because it may take us three years to actually get this thing done and get it done right the however the person themselves has romance chips in her head and desire to get on the market and may start to be getting flirted with already and therefore all this cognitive dissonance is banging around in her head about how to deal with this because she may get you know a would be mating buyer on the line here but she's she's got you know some dirty laundry does she's got some liabilities that she's embarrassed about having that are pretty significant which they would be now so what would we do about this well the the other way that we do things is then this is what I call this I call this dirty laundry when we've got rear baggage is another thing that when we have some some hidden liabilities that what we what people do in relationships is they expose these hidden liabilities a little bit at a time so I'm not going to tell the girl all my lot okay one well sold sold show Connor ice-t alright so we're going to like parcel them out a little bit we do things so if this this young lady gets into a relationship has a few dates going the guy is treating her nicely he appears to be interested in treating her respectfully through whatever process they have short intermediate or long term meeting if she's interested and would would like to would would like to pursue this then you find a way to get your you find a way to choke out the honesty so you can do this with photography and that's a way that you could do do things you could also you can also have them you know it depends on how how early in the dynamics of the relationship and the people etc you can also find a way to show these these characteristics by wearing clothing that's a little bit revealing and you know it doesn't have to be super revealing but it could be a little bit revealing or you could be up front with the person you could take a little bit more time get to know them a little bit deeper and then have an honest discussion about where you're at with with this so there's a variety of options and I think that if the skin is pretty significantly unattractive which it very much well can be a person that loses that much weight very often has a has a problem there that's not you know i i've seen such enormous individual differences in with us I mean I've known a number of people that have lost weight of this magnitude and I've seen some people who wear the skin springs back remarkably well and I've seen other people where it doesn't and so I don't know some the skin geniuses could could tell us why or what's known about this but if she's you know this is a lot though she was 290 pounds and let's suppose she's five four five six so she's she keeps at it she's headed down into the low hundreds probably so there's probably another 30 or 40 pounds to go that magnitude is very often more than the body can deal with very elegantly and so she very well may want to keep that weight down good and solid for a while make sure that she's got her program really well together and be saving up her her money and angling for a way to take care of this problem really well with surgery and that that's that's really the long-term more complete solution to this problem even then the surgeries depends upon you know what what what marks are left after the surgery and how well person heals and all these sorts of things there will still be some issues later but there will be you know 1/10 of what it is that she's probably facing now so different ways to handle this but what I would actually tell this young lady is that you have you have done a remarkable thing this is a this is a spectacular achievement and you have you are taking back control of your life in your future in this regard and so instead of thinking that you're 80% of the way to where it is that you want to go I would tell you you're more like 65% so there's there's some journeys left over and there's some things that we're going to need to face and some discipline and self-sacrifice it's still going to be required so we're not quite ready yet but the fact that you're getting close and that you're starting to to sniff that you would be in a position to form you know foreign start forming relationships that would be meaningful and satisfying this is great okay you've done the hardest work that there is but there's some more to do fantastic dr. Lao thank you very much for that and right you guys it's really incredible to read this question and and it sounds like this this lady has been through a hell of a journey and what she's already about is how not to deceive another person just just really yeah like that it's really really fine person's question and there is the nice thing about this is is that I'm confident with this kind of character and this kind of determination and as well as the direction that she has that this is going to work this is going to work out and this this person is going to succeed in a process that the real world would say that there's no way that she could but she's going to which is just terrific fantastic all right well let's turn the ship around a little bit and ask dr. a while under what circumstances do you turn into disagreeable Doug you mentioned in the previous episode that you don't like time constraints and you get upset if someone's time pressuring you you also mention that when you're dating someone you don't like to introduce her to your circle of friends and family until you've been with that person for at least a couple of months because you don't want everybody's entry input so I'm wondering how do you deal with a client who refutes your advice do you become disagreeable and adamant when they don't believe you and don't want to accept what you're saying when you know that you're correct oh this is beautiful well first of all this just happened this just happened about three weeks ago I had one of these sessions and actually I had two of them in a row and the what happens this happens it usually about once or twice a year now interestingly enough so about once or twice a year a client it gets very difficult and then I can kind of lose my cool and not be so professional now the very interesting thing is it's usually the same which it was in this case all right so I've got a lady who's very intelligent very verbal ad and it has a serious disagreeable streak so usually we work very well together at working out issues that she has with other people as I tried to help her unwind and maneuver some of the some of the fixes that she gets herself in but once in a while she gets herself hurt ailing or not with me and then we're 10 in trouble so we've always worked it out that's been going on for many years now so there have been other times so--but like is I think about this if I think over the last 10 years I've probably had you know 10 such sessions and and this this client is actually a favorite of mine in many ways is probably responsible for 6 out of 10 so so now which just means that I'm I'm not like I'm not temperamental II ideally suited to this hahaha the UH in grad school it they actually wanted to throw me out at one point and that's because I just didn't seem like the their vision of a clinical psychologist I was I was a little too argumentative and and a little too determined to to force everybody's facing the truth and so there was a problem and some of the faculty had issues with me so the the vision this is actually entertaining because I had I actually had a person come up to me today at the mcdougal program that we're having in Santa Rosa this week and she came up and she had talked to me on the phone once and come down in the program and she said she wanted to thank me because I had essentially told her this you need to do something and you need to do something significant about making a change with your health and you can afford it and you want to do something and if you want to get a comprehensive education into your diet and lifestyle issues and you want it and you're willing to pay sort of the Cadillac and have a Cadillac thing come down to the mcdougal program and she did and she said I appreciated that you're not like other psychologists because you were pretty tough on me on the phone in other words you weren't it wasn't it wasn't friendly and warm and essentially we might say sappy it just didn't have that aspect and she said I want to tell you that I really appreciate it and I was you know I don't recall ever having quite feedback like that so it's ironic that you're I mean it's a coincidental that this question is coming up tonight and that I just had this interaction this afternoon the yeah so disagreeable Douglas yeah that's uh I'm probably 50th percentile maybe I'm flattering myself I might be I might be more disagreeable at the UH but I don't think so I think that's where it is I think that in addition what happens is is that I have pretty high conscientiousness and so if I feel like someone is being in some way dishonest or or irresponsible and other people might be being hurt by that then I can get quite disagreeable and insistent that there's a that there's a essentially a morally correct or proper way for my vision about how this should be handled and if they're not if not amenable to this and they're stubborn enough and for whatever reason they dig in their heels then once in a while I don't I don't do the I don't do the therapy nice deal and so that that will happen so I am human I've got limitations and notice how deftly I turned that deficit into a strength [Laughter] the truth is that every time that's happened I've walked away from it first righteously righteously pleased with my own assertiveness and I analyzed the situation again and feel like that I was right to do so and then within half an hour I'm feeling kind of guilty and and know that I didn't do right and and so I have to then do some remedial action and I so these are things that that that I don't like doing and we've all if you've got any assertiveness in you and in any disagreeableness and and any sense of righteousness we've all made these mistakes so I've made him a few times in therapy in my young life as a young vegan vegetarian in my 20s in grad school you know I I made this mistake 20 times 30 times with people when discussions would open up about diet and then we would find out that myself and someone else would have a difference of opinion and that if they had any assertiveness and push they were going to lose that argument and they always did okay so there's no way I'm walking away from that argument without caving somebody's skull in on that and the the problem is is that when you do that mmm that that relationship is never right again and you can apologize and you can be friendly and you could be self effacing and you can do all the remedial actions that that I have done in order to try to essentially rewind the tape and you can help it but it's never the same and so that's why in my lectures now about how to manage these processes I have a lecture called getting along without going along about the issues of being a hyper conscientious health individual in the world where other people don't understand you and and your own desire to bring that information to the village and to get credit for it this is a natural instinct in humans that if you've you are very sure that you're right and you are as the question or ask if you're adamant and you are sure that you're right and you're getting resistance what happens well what happens is that the normal person will feel the anger that will come from having their own goal blocked because they expect to receive a statement and when they're not getting it it feels unfair and then you start signaling that the other person is being unfair with your anger and then you'll find something else happened that that there has been very little discussion about that I have seen in in the evolutionary psychology literature or elsewhere and that is what I call the anger instincts the human beings have spectacular argumentative instincts they can find a flaw and weakness in the person's argument and when we are emotionally facilitated then you know if you're smart and you're verbal you those switches flip on and you are going for the flag and what the consequences are are not important to you at that point you're there to win and I did I did and that that was not cool and so I have learned over the years to keep myself out of those situations as much as possible but I'm human and I'm not perfect and if you step on just the wrong circuit you're going to get it he doesn't look very good daddy dumpin yes mama what did your father tell you this morning if you can't say something nice don't say nothing at all [Laughter] beautiful there you go survivors for the ages you got one of our listeners a couple of people in the fans of the beat your genes Facebook group after last episode they posted a really good saying is that they said basically you can't say enough and don't stay nothing nice at all but this particular burglar did a really nice twist on it with a Lyle saying saying if it's not flooding the circuits don't say anything at all yeah there you go very good so all right is yes so the question is is it's a really intricate balance between saying your piece and what yeah you know it and then be I guess essentially becoming deaf quite disagreeable is there any levels to take away or is this more more you know some people will just fall into a trap more often yeah that's that's a good question and I'm trying to think about what what rules have been beneficial for me and sort of when they failed and the I think that that in every case for me the the issue can be that if that when I'm actually trying to think it through now as we're as we're discussing this the I think that what happens to me is that that I'm usually very methodical at trying to make my case and trying to help the other person see and I've actually got quite a bit of patience for it but there comes a time when a when when bright verbal people which is who this is good there's going to be a problem with when when bright verbal people are now not behaving intellectually honestly and they start to use argumentative tricks to try to combat my position and now I feel like they're not playing fair and so when I see that they're not playing fair then then I do not call them on that process so I've not developed the technique to stop myself under those circumstances because if they start to not play fair then I will not play fair okay or in other words I will get ruthless and that is not that is by no means the right way to do things now so usually I'm not in this very often it's it's actually an interesting discussion and it's one a usually what I've done is I've learned my way around this problem by observing the patterns that that neat we need to prepare for so in arguments about food which were common in my youth I developed a set of techniques for completely ignoring the whole thing and basically walking away from trying to gain the status that would be potentially achievable and deserve a bowl by enlightening everybody okay so I essentially have have conceded the fact that I'm not going to go after that status so this is actually an interesting part of the rule and that is that your instincts will typically have you reach for every bit of status that you deserve and beating the jeans is to essentially not do that and to understand that it's not worth the trouble and to start recognizing that now another situation will come up and I am NOT always successful and that is that if I get a heckler in an audience so if I get a heckler in an audience I am aware of how to manage this in the same way with the food questions which are that essentially I'm trying to walk away from the whole fight and not even try to go get any status there if with a heckler my job is to be pleasant and not be disagreeable because I don't want the group to essentially see the psychological vulnerability that I might be feeling so there's an anti heckler technique that was outlined by David David Burns in feeling good it was a very good technique which is that the first thing we do is we give them status so we say they have a fine question and more research needs to be done on this and that but this is complicated and that you know you'd be happy to talk to them afterwards so I would say in 50% of cases where I hit a heckler I use this strategy and it works perfectly it's never failed what has failed is my ability to execute it okay because the instincts are not going there the the heckler is is essentially the person that I'm talking about where they're not playing fair they are coming after a person's status essentially illegally or unfairly and that activates the the lowest form of neural circuits in in me or anybody else which is okay I'm going to play to win then if you're going to play dirty I could play just as dirty and I don't get all the way down into the muck but I can play rough and then I don't feel good afterwards and I will I will spend 24 hours sort of cycling through those mistakes and think through how it is that I could have done it differently and it is always the case that had I used the anti hypo technique we would have been fine so it's a these are this is a great these are these are superb examples of how difficult it is to beat the genes and how you can beat the genes with practice and with enough repetition the but but how even in spite of a lot of knowledge about it there are certain genetically build systems that are very difficult to override but it can be done and this is one of them is a good good question that somebody asked me mmhmm yeah okay so can you can you give us some tips on like flooding the circuits because I know in the fingers earlier in the podcast early in a show a couple years ago we had I think it was episode the the episode with Olivia how to how to repair a broken relationship right and your technique was anecdote and an attribute and you practice it wax it so it's actually doubt so that it sounds genuine are there any other techniques and tricks and you know tips about how to flood somebody circuits and a follow fashion is does it always have to be genuine do you always have to believe and feel like that's true about person no you don't okay so the reason why we're having to resort to these techniques is because often we've got a person that's very difficult to deal with so we're talking about the outliers here and so it's it's exceedingly unusual for me to wind up at knocking heads with a client but if when you when you deal with somebody that's at a one in a hundred sort of level then you're going to wind up sometimes in these in these situations and that's going to be true of heckler so I rarely get someone who's being difficult maybe once a year but I will get it and and so that you obviously this is most people if you are if you listen to them carefully and you feedback what it is that they're saying so this is crystal clear so this is the you know this is how it is that we do just very solid communication with people is that if we're I'll always want to make sure that I understand what it is that they're saying and sometimes people sometimes people are are not quite clear themselves or any little hostility that's in there we'll get into trouble logically because they haven't quite thought it all through and they haven't connected the dots that well so sometimes sometimes I will be feeling like I'm being fairly aggressive and I'm not being particularly friendly but the first move that I make in conflict is to crystal clear so crystal clear is is the technique where we continue to ask questions and we get and we continue to reformulate and feedback what it is that we believe they have said until we can get acknowledgement than from them that they feel like they are completely and totally understood okay so so crystal clear is a it's a cross-examination strategy where we are going to be very very patient that we are not going to attack until we fully understand the situation alright so that's that's the first thing now if we if it becomes in anywhere apparent that we've got an individual that is essentially kind of deranged way to sent you know usually if they're halfway reasonable if we were continue to use crystal clear we will get down if we if we work it far enough we're going to get down to the core issue where they are really hurting and we're going to have a better understanding of it but once in a while they're not going to allow us to do that they're going to get they're going to get nasty and so sometimes sometimes they're just so determined to win and to not lose status and put themselves in that situation of being cross-examined and getting the searchlight of crystal clear on top of their position that they're just going to get the they're going to get tricky and they're going to get nasty and they're not going to play for I'm going to come after your status now when you get into trouble there's magic words so the magic words are going to be that you're going to say things like I see your point I'm see I'm starting to see what you're saying and you know there's a lot right about what you're saying and I so you're you're right about this so we find things right about what is that they're saying and so let's suppose I got some paleo person is going to make some big issue about you know how it is that our ancestors did this or did that and how somebody does so well with Kayla and so I'm getting a whole you know I'm getting a whole argument and the person so upset because that's not what I've been saying before and they're embarrassed because they've been preaching paleo to all their friends and their family and their sick mother and so now it is that now essentially they're embarrass and facilitated and they're feeling interestingly enough exposed in front of the village because they've gone online with the position that my lecture discussion is now put under the searchlight and I'm tearing it apart okay so they're pretty interested in in coming after my status and undermining my credibility and and contradicting what it is that I'm saying and they're feeling a really really about this so if I can see that they're essentially emotionally unstable enough that it's not going to go well then what we reach for magic words and the magic words are things like you know you do have a point so they hear that and suddenly it's like heroin okay it's like ah they can relax so if if the now they are not completely out there exposed wide open and so now now we can start to find some middling ground where does the weak and we can get some some half-baked resolution and get ourselves out of this mess and get then far as far away from this disagreeable individual as possible that's what we want the if we can't you know we do the best we can so we crystal clear we use magic words we flood their circuit as best is that we can in these circumstances and you know that's what we can do remember that there are times and there are people that are so inherently disagreeable or invested that particularly if they're both disagreeable and heavily invested in a position that they're there they're for all intents and purposes this is what I call effectively stupid so it doesn't matter how smart they are they are effectively stupid so if you're talking to a a a Marxist sociology professor at Berkeley about market economies in the future and you know how world order should be you are I don't care if the guy's 150 IQ and he won a MacArthur Fellowship for his brilliant essay he's effectively stupid and what we're not going to get anywhere with this guy because he's just too invested so remember that on the other end of it our job is not to cave people skull in and beat him over the head and split their head open and beat down every defense although I'm always sorely tempted the truth of the matter is is that beating our genes is to recognize that you've actually all we got so much time and energy in this life and I've spent enough of my time and energy not not a lot of it but enough spinning in my own head over-over uncomfortable social situations where I let this dominant circuit get the best of me and then I was not the person that I would want to be and it's uncomfortable and I'm sure I will do it again in the future and I just did it recently so I know quite well that I'm into it again in the future but as I as I age and get smarter about managing myself these things happen less and less often and and make my life just that much more peace Wow all right fantastic all right so one last question and this your similar topic so dear dr. Lyle yeah my husband and I are big fans and we've been eating a Whole Foods plant-based diet for two years I used to have deep depression and suicidal thoughts but after I turned to plant-based eating my suicidal depression went away completely I exercised lost weight and became healthier one thing I can't get a handle on is my anger I get furious when I feel or know someone is not respecting me or being unfair to me I can go from zero to 100 in seconds sometimes I created scenes in my head if someone disrespected me how I would talk back or yell back at them most of the time I'm a very happy person with a great life so I'm wondering if you have any tips of how to get rid of or manage my anger issues yeah well we just talked about this so we're going to remarkable I mean this is exactly the question that we were just talking about you know I don't have it I don't have the problem at the same magnitude but you know many of us are going to have situations that will come up that activate this essentially I'm going to win mentality that is part of the instinctual human neural circuitry now I would say to this person the following just to to reiterate and clarify and maybe just get a little bit crisper as to what I would say and that is that effectively what you want to have is let me explain a little bit more broadly what I'm saying and who I'm who I'm speaking to across the history of psychology the people will will think that you can essentially learn broad principles that is and that you can sort of change if we think about principles broadly we can change like for example we can make a person more conscientious so we're going to make our child more conscientious by having them sit down every night do their homework at 7 o'clock the this this is not going to happen they they are not going to become more generally conscientious because there's not going to be a transfer of training across domains they're not going to now as young adults change the oil in their car more fastidiously because we did this training process where every night at seven o'clock we add them sit down and do their homework and we did it with religious fervor so in order to try to embed in them this sense of responsibility and completeness we will not do that so we do not generally change human personalities and generally change processes we only specifically change processes so what we would want is whenever we would have quite an anger management problem and this is going to be generally the mistake of any men anger management training anybody is ever going to do and that is that they're going to be trying to change the person's quote approach to anger and everything else under the Sun what we want to do instead is get very narrow so we want to taxonomy of the types of situations that give rise to the person's anger very very specifically possibly including highly specific individuals and not just highly specific individuals but the content of conversations with those individuals that give rise to the anger so if we're trying to as the question is asked here the person is saying listen you know this this problem that I have and I would say ok the first thing we're going to do is we're going to make a taxonomy of the situations that come up and see whether or not it's same individuals or it's the same conversations with different individuals but the content is the same if we're always fighting about Donald Trump or we're fighting about plant-based nutrition or we're fighting about global warming it's like we want to find out what it is that the fights are about and so of course underneath that the person has identified the principle of anger which is that we're feeling disrespected well we're always that's always going to be the case that we're going to find that the anger is is as a result of feeling disrespected and so that's the that's the underlying generalized process but we're not so interested in the underlying generalized process we're interested in the highly specific process ok so that's what I would tell her to do is that I would have yourself a taxonomy of the highly specific incidents and their content and then what we have to do is we have to think through a script for how it is that we are going to manage that specific conflict in the future to short-circuit the conflict the first time that I did this with hecklers you know I don't know probably 25 years ago thirty years ago I was you know just as a as a as a professor once in a while you get a I was young so sometimes the grad students were as old as I was and so they were I can remember a few a few always male grad students essentially trying to challenge my dominance in a class and so and they could they could get you know dis right to the edge of danger zone for for civility because they they were it was worth trying to topple me out the hierarchy and show the females in the class their horns but at the same time they didn't necessarily want to take a hit on their grade and so they would ride the edge and I remember this actually I haven't thought about this in you know 30 years the it's a you're on TV today yeah yes grow so so what we I forget I actually forget where I was going with this that there's a yeah that's okay I think I was lost anyway but the the notion is oh I can remember reading this is what it was I had read feeling good by David Burns long before this and it was probably published I can't remember in the early 80s or even in the late 70s so I had read this in the 1980s so I'm lecturing in the early 90s so I had the anti heckler technique and I don't remember when I first used it but I do remember that when I first used it I walked out of the lecture thinking holy smokes that's the magic bullet okay I I realize it had worked perfectly and the person who had been hostile and challenging literally reversed and now wanted to side with me in the coalition and I can remember Wow have I discovered something really important and hats off to David burns for for showing this to me so like I said since that time I probably only fifty-fifty probably a 50% batting average on using it when I need it however with it whenever I do I walk away knowing that I had achieved a very significant victory for myself in that situation and so that was a win so they're the same concept here so the point about the anti heckler technique is I might not be thinking about the anti heckler technique if I'm in a one-on-one conversation with somebody to lunch okay because it's not it's not a heckler situation and so therefore I'm not necessarily that specifically ready for it strange that it won't necessarily transfer the training that well so the the solution to the problem is not that we're going to quit I don't know eating mandarin oranges that have contributed to the neurochemical cascade causing you to have the same problem you know this is your personality this is you you've got a you've got a lightning-quick reaction there and we're not going to make you smooth we're not going to turn you into a smooth Buddhist who doesn't bite on these things you're going to feel it but what can we do what we can do is we can get ready for when these levers are more like most likely to be hit under what specific situations are they going to happen and then we think through those three or four most common situations and we get ready with a well thought through alternative process that we're going to use and when we do that process the very first time when you pull the lever on the alternative process and you beat your jinns and you walk away you know feeling like wow I just avoided a car accident and you know of course I wanted to tap the guy on the skull harder than I did but the truth is is that it worked well ok and we will we will take that victory every every time if you can get yourself to do it Wow all right and do you think that'll get gets a little bit easier the more the more you do it almost like work out I got it Lee hmm yeah exactly I think I think without a doubt this you can get better but I'm explaining that I I have not in by any means reached 100% and so that that that that doesn't matter you get ready you get better and you save yourself some some unnecessary grief by by preparing for these situations
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