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Episode 116: Beauty standards for women, Prostitution, and Emotional Intelligence
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all right good evening everybody it's Nate G here along with dr. Doug Lyall dr. Lyle how are you doing this fine evening good good about yourself pretty good I guess there's there's no really no other way to answer that question if I start it with with this fine evening right like just try and disagree yeah okay all right so today we are talking about we are continuing our show from last week where we didn't get to the last couple of questions and the questions on the beauty standards for women one of our listeners would love to know the dug down load on prostitution and whether or not emotional intelligence is a thing and so let's just get started now the beauty standards for women is a very very interesting topic and one of our one of the listeners on the Facebook group recently was commenting on your opinion about the movie I feel pretty and this person was just expressing an opinion and so I don't want to ridicule them at all but they were fair essentially saying that this was they just kind of misunderstood or essentially we're disappointed with your point of view saying that again that there's a standard for women that society is you know holding these women to these unrealistic models of perfection and that women beat themselves up and so I thought this is a perfect time to bring in this question it just happen to be the perfect timing from yesterday from last week's question so yeah okay let's let's let's go straight to the question to order dr. Lyle got question about beauty standards for women I follow someone on Instagram who stopped shaving her underarms and her legs and stopped wearing makeup dyeing her hair etc and says that as women her choice to do so if she chooses to do so is due to heavy programming by billion dollar industries pushing gender inequality and that they are teaching women that their natural selves are ugly and not good enough do you think this is true or are these industries just capitalizing off something that is already in our genes for example do men only think shaved legs makeup colored hair etc are attractive because Society has taught them or is that tied in to looking healthy or younger somehow very good question turns out there's an answer to this that's definitive the the industries are not pushing gender inequality they would have absolutely no motivation to do anything of the kind they are trying to make money and so what they're attempting to do is to give the consumers of their products a advantage in the marketplace so all and that that's the only reason that they would sell so so it must be true that that the that the products must be giving people advantages in marketplace or they wouldn't be using them or else they've succeeded in convincing people that they give them an advantage in the marketplace even though they don't work okay so that's that's what psychiatry does but it's really complicated yes this is really it's really hard to it's really hard to sell people things that are completely ineffective the so it's going to turn out that that makeup works and it works brilliantly it can it can transform someone who is a 6 into a 7 and a half and and so that being the case what you can wind up with is an evolutionary arms race and not an evolutionary arms race but the equivalent of one though it's an arms race where if everyone else it winds up being a game theory problem if everyone else is using the makeup then you better use the makeup where you're going to get left behind so this woman on Instagram who is deciding not to shave her legs not to dye her hair and all this kind of stuff fine it's her choice but it could cost her okay so the so she runs the risk of leaving a few percentage points of competitiveness on the table and so I'm not going to say that that all these sort of accouterments and techniques are going to make a huge difference and a lot of people they might not make much difference at all so I have seen people who that in my judgment made no difference in my estimation how they're the makeup didn't make any difference in their attractiveness the I have seen people who the difference has been striking in my judgment so the I think that that's that's likely to be true but in any event it's it's clearly works I mean I think I don't know where it was 15th century England or something or 16th or 17th century England there was a there was a law I believe against women using makeup because they the men would feel duped after they were married to these women and feel like they'd been cheated and won one man famously appealed to the king for an annulment of the marriage that he had been defrauded okay so clearly clearly it works ad and so much of the much of the use of makeup and fashion is to essentially accentuate characteristics that that men are designed by nature to look at women and to care them to the word we're looking at attractiveness characteristics and and so for example you know what we're not trying to well actually I was thinking God we don't do much to the hands how about the elbows we don't we don't shave the elbows and put coloring on them but we do at the face and the hands of course are fairly big deal because women do you have these long nails that probably make their fingers look longer and thinner I'm not sure what the point of that is but somebody probably knows but the standards are not beauty standards are not a matter of cultural education the beauty standards are algorithms that the beauty is in the adaptations of the beholder the this is a famous quote from don simons this is that's where beauty lies beauty inside inside the beholder there are there are beauty detection mechanisms and those beauty detection mechanisms will will fire evaluations based on the stimulus that if it hits those things so if you're if you're a stinkbug there's a certain stink that you like to smell and when you smell that smell it's beautiful and we smell a smell that's a little bit off it's not as beautiful that's just how it works and if there's certain if you're a given kind of a frog there are male croaks that are very sexy and they cause you to be drawn to the male that makes those croaks and if you're a male that doesn't make those croaks you're out of luck and actually strategy in that case is to hide in the bushes very close to the male that's making the noise and then try to grab the females as they come by as they headed for them for the hotshot guy so the story of my leave oh that's great so uh anyway so no beauty is not foisted upon us by Madison Avenue beauty's are they are mechanisms that are innate to the species and subject to probably some very modest level of modification not very much and and then what all these products are is they are products and fashion and so forth these are methods for attempting to out-compete competitors so this is not trying to foist gender inequality this is a mechanism for females to out-compete other females for goodness sakes and males do the same so that's why there's have you ever noticed how much better guys look in suits they they look better in suits because there's padding in the shoulders that would make me look almost normal oh okay the so this is what this is about this is all about people hiding their flaws and trying to make look fancier than they are and since since the marketplace is doing it you you are essentially being forced into a choice that you either you either don't don't use that gambit and you just say forget it I'm going to I'm going to play straight and I'm not going to look any fancier than I am and I'm just going to put on blue jeans and a t-shirt wear my baseball cap backwards and that's how it's going to go and fair with you and that's fine good luck your competitors probably won't do this so this girl on Instagram who is trying to say to everybody hey don't do it you know you're being you're being bamboozled by the big corporate corporations to make you feel badly about yourself now they know you're you're not being bamboozled at all you you are seeing clearly what your competitors are saying and your competitors are looking at faces being doctored up all with a model with a person with model looks that has has makeup turn that we turn that thing all the way into supernormal stimuli is what it is and what you're going to see is the hyper activation of the pleasure centers of the brain when people look at them this is why people on television that have regular gigs on television are very attractive people these are not average the probably Fox News you know 15 years ago was probably the first first news company to understand this and implement it and so they they you know essentially have the females on there or just one 10 after the next and then pretty soon the other networks were essentially forced to follow suit and so that's what you have now all over the news is you have nothing other than essentially tens tens with superb makeup and fashion consultants and everything else into the Sun so and that that goes all through through television and all through the movies and everything else so anyway so you're not being bamboozled you're not being forced you're not being brainwashed you are being made aware that there are there are competitive advantages to products and those competitive advantages will be being used by your competitors and you can choose to walk away from those but you do so at your own peril and that's fine nobody forces you to do it you cannot shave I I think that this person's commentary about the shaving of the arms and the legs and all this sort of jazz very likely has something to do with youth cues wouldn't surprise me at all and it's probably why shaved female legs are particularly attractive it's not something that males learn it's it's undoubtedly a a youth detection mechanism so yeah that's that's what these things are and when when we try to do things to go against the underlying sort of underlying genetic proclivities of the species they don't they won't work so you have female shape that that the male finds attractive you have a male shape that the female finds attractive and fashion is built to accentuate those so back in the 1970s already some some idiot you know fashionista decided that they were going to have women wear suits with shoulder pads and it's like it completely fell flat on its face like they might have tried to force the issue on the world for a few years and then it's a loser and and that's because men are not do not find a female you know big strong shoulders as an attractiveness thing women find men with big strong shoulders attractive so this is a these are innate genetic differences women are not interested in looking at males with the two two three ways tips ratio not interested at all okay so the the if you actually look in kind of think about this it's kind of interesting that what men will find attractive is a is a triangle that goes from a narrow waist down to wider hips if you flip that triangle you find exactly what what women find attractive is the the very same triangle with the male shoulders being broad going down to a narrow waistline so these are these are just basic morphological characteristics that and this is also true with the structure of the face the little pieces of it the smoothness of the skin the most the most important characteristic of sexual attractiveness is actually skin the evenness of its tone and it's a it's perfection etc etc so that's why you know makeup is a big deal because it essentially makes the skin I can make the skin appear to be in much better condition than it is so there's a very long answer to the question that that I'm neither for nor against these things you know I just say hey look we live in a world where these these tools exist and to to to essentially ignore that they're there and to and to not understand but the handicap that you put yourself at if you don't use them this is equivalent of a guy saying look you know I can make enough beans and rice to feed the kids and we can get a hundred square foot apartment so what why should there be a problem it's a better standard of living than almost anybody that ever lived and to which point the female says you know what all things being equal I'll take the guy with the five bells a square foot house ok so once again a 5,000 square foot house is a supernormal stimuli you know this is not this is not something that is that there's any equivalent anything like it anywhere in nature any more than there is female makeup and fashion and tinted hair and yet it exists and it's part of the competitive matrix uh that the males need to be paying attention to their you know some some lady once told me there's five the five Cs I think I can't I can't remember what they are condo country club cash career and carrots on the dime something like that the five cholesterol you have you Peyton and you better Vienna pay attention to the five fees and if you're female you better pay attention to to fashion and makeup and hair because your competitors surely are mmm yeah every time I hear about these you know the ladies who just you know they stopped shaving their arms and they kind of make it as a protest it sounds to me like it's a bit of an ego trap where they say you can't fire me I quit yeah where they've done their best they got rejected and now they're saying you can't judge be fair these because I'm not even trying so just sometimes it feels like that but I may be way off base and it's just me yeah yeah it's very interesting I don't I don't doubt that that might be a partial motivation at least some of the time in other words that that's good thinking mate I think that that's true I think I think there's a lot of it that's just sheer anger and frustration not not not maybe quite so much ego too rapid yeah protest yeah I think you would you can morph that in and if we would discuss it further I think it there is ego trap there there's also there's a there's a frustration and almost a shaming of the people that are going to continue to use those those products and essentially wanting there to be a wholesale revolt against it so that we we bring everybody you know back to the pack in some ways so yeah III think there's complicated psychological dynamics there but but I definitely think that I think you're right I think the ego trap kick over the table I'm not really trying you can't see how attractive I could be relative to competitors because I'm not even trying I think I think you're absolutely right I the more I think about it I think you've nailed it good job alright alright so next question the next question is about prostitution and this listener would like to know your thoughts on prostitution dear dr. Lyle we get some more information about the evolutionary psychology on prostitution are there cultures where it's not shamed is it morally wrong and are there empowered prostitutes out there with specific personality traits who simply enjoy the work and don't experience negative emotions surrounding it very good great question and relatively complicated one and so what we want to do is we want to I want to make sure I could just see why politicians talk and double-talk and don't say anything and everybody's careful because god forbid you you answer a question some way and the soundbite goes out there and then everybody says that this is what you said about XYZ so let's let's take this in a few layers here hmm first of all do I think it's a good thing that there are 12 year old girls in Thailand that are being pimped out for sexual favors for etc absolutely not okay do I think that that this is a good thing that the world has available to it and now I think it's a tragedy that that this is a you know we live in a time that is is you know the best time that there's ever been but it has much to be desired and a great deal of progress remains to be done so the the great value that we have we have enjoyed in in Western democracies now that that have now culminated in in the light that we have today and the options that we have today that make the Bakke prostitution essentially completely unnecessary for for women to contemplate seriously in in the vast majority of cases in the Western world that you know that's going to take us a long time before it might be 200 years before the world is sufficiently wealthy where this is not a serious consideration and a grim reality for a lot of a lot of females in the world and I say females rather than women because I can't I can't really call an eleven-year-old child a woman the so this is so in and one through one lens it is a great great tragedy and I would say that that is largely the case if we looked on it as a worldwide basis now let's look at something else that it kind of doesn't look like that let's look at a very attractive female who's intelligent and suave and decides that that she will trade her sexuality as a the mistress and have sex with some guy once a week that is wealthy and she just kind of doesn't want to work doesn't feel like working and he'll put her up in a really swanky townhouse in in Midtown Dallas and give her a louse of $10,000 a month what would we call this okay how would we not call that prostitution and in in any through any angle can anybody see anything quote morally wrong with it I can't this looks like people with plenty of options on both sides that are choosing to have a transaction here and it's their own bodies and their own money and it's their own time and energy as far as I'm concerned it's nobody else's business so at which at what point does this become you know mm kind of distasteful maybe right there and a lot of people would find that very distasteful a lot of people would fight it very threatening there's men that would feel threatened and upset that other men could simply use their resources and push them out of the sexual competitors pool because there's going to be females that are going to be looking for those resources and the females are willing to trade down in order to get those resources to which my answer is too bad okay the fact that the female brain is going to run a cost-benefit analysis on her sexuality visa v's effort and and resource acquisition problems that's her problem that's her choice and that's too bad okay for you if you don't like it and to legislate that and to make that illegal seems to me to be like the you know the apex of governmental absurdity now we're closed maybe not the apex but it's up there a victimless crime I mean that that there's no reason why that should be criminal and in fact it isn't it's so absurdly criminal it's so sorely it's so absurdly fine that you can see that there's absolutely no way to stop it okay so now we start saying okay let's change it up a little bit let's have this woman instead of having one guy let's say that she has four and that each one of them visit her once a week and instead of having a monthly allowance to $10,000 each one of them gets her $1,000 for hanging out with the afternoon and have sex a couple times and call it a day what about that same woman same choices woman has a MBA from Harvard okay just decides yeah I don't feel like working turns out I'm really hot I've hung around with you know really smart people why not just use my brains in my beauty and I'm kind of like hyper sexualized anyway and I was half lead in high school and I got high testosterone but you know I happen to have you know highly effeminate super attractive looks Wow why wouldn't I make $4,000 a week this way fine I like it I enjoy it what do we look now what do we call that can't quite call it a girlfriend can't we call it a mistress what do you call it I I don't think there's any other thing to call than a prostitute where is the moral problem there isn't one not not by my estimation so now we we look at this and we say well the females are not happy about this of course they're not happy about it the because now the this makes it possible for the males to engage in casual mating strategy and essentially makes it so that they're not necessarily so interested in pair bonding okay so this is threatening people's agendas all over the place it's threatening male agendas it's threatening female agendas and all behind the guys is some bizarre thing called morality well what is that morality is that is the issue of how it is that human beings settle on the fact that their conflicts of interest with group living so morality is when you are doing something that you're considering to be in your best interest but it's damaging to the group and it makes people upset and then we have to set rules but we can start to see that there comes a time when you know it's like well what group what rules and our is the group worth it the most of the group rules and the groups you know how things are run in the world I wouldn't want any part of like I don't want any part of communism no interest no interest in their religious fanaticism and all the rules that are involved there supposedly behind the notion of morality it's ridiculous so the download on prostitution is that it is a tragedy that some people are in a position where what they have to sell in the world in order to survive or make themselves not not materially miserable would be their sexuality and that they would have to sell it in such a way that they couldn't exercise any discrimination that's just terrible that's just uh that that's like a little starving cat you know I mean on the streets of Calcutta and it just breaks your heart that any animal in the world has to suffer like that however the we can see from our women in the townhouse in Dallas that there's a queue we can't call this the same thing so at what point does you know do we call things immoral or upset you know etc what when do we have laws I don't know we could start seeing that we have a huge thing of gray area okay so I have difficulty with the notion that you should have it illegal for adults to not engage in transactions that are voluntary between both parties and that we're going to make this we're going to force this you know into the dark corners and we're going to force it into a situation where people have to be worried about the law and this is just ludicrous so from this you know that that's how I look at it I I really can't see any other rational argument so anyway that's my feeling about this I feel like once again there's if there's a woman in a in a country where she is not facing starvation and she's not she's not facing personal mental or physical limitations where she you know where she could simply get a job in earn a living just like everybody else and put a roof over her head and and or her children's heads and that she can can you know have her teeth fixed and go to a doctor if she needs to in other words if she's in a material position to be able to live her life in reasonable material safety and security and she chooses to not do it the hard way but do it an easier way in order to make higher dollars per unit of effort expended and chooses to trade her sexuality and her sexual choice mechanisms behind that I just can't for the life of me see why anybody would call that immoral or we would make it illegal okay yeah when those circumstances change and the person is literally essentially forced into this by a lack of mental or physical abilities this is a social welfare tragedy and this is something that we would like to have that individual be in a position where they could survive in reasonable comfort without ever having to resort to such such tactics okay so that's that's how I look at it fantastic thank you very much for that all right a thorough answer good yeah I remember in one of your talks a long time ago that I watched probably several dozen times because it took me that long to get it all but the character it was a perfect personality and you were talking about openness to new experience and how the genes for openness to experience that are highly concentrated in Tierra del Fuego in I think it was Chile Chile and yeah so I have a question is I wonder if I openness has to do with a female's desire to to engage in such work and whether or not we would find cultures where there's more high openness genes to be more accepting of this type of work oh that's very interesting a very interesting question probably true I I think that the strangely enough I think the some of the Nordic countries are have have a high openness and I think they have less stigmatization about this than the US for example and they are an interesting test case for your thinking in the sense that the depite the the people that are engaging in this are probably more high openness and not particularly the sprit so if we start looking around the world to other cultures more broadly we're going to find that the the economic constraints and pressures are so great that that people are not it isn't an openness choosing it's a it's essentially cornered animals and so we can't we can't make any kind of inferences about what this all means in Brazil because we got we got millions of people living in extraordinary poverty and so we can't we can't make any I don't think we can make any inferences there but I think the Northern Europeans you know Denmark you know but Sweden Norway I I don't know a lot about those cultures but my understanding is that there's there's more openness to this there I believe I think prostitution is completely legal in Germany and I think there's like fifty thousand registered prostitutes or some such thing and I don't think that there's fifty thousand women in Germany that are that would be incompetent to sit behind a desk or worse Stan and a McDonald's and say welcome McDonald's can I take your order okay so I think that these people are making these choices are running a cost-benefit analysis and I think that they are they are not running the dire cost-benefit analysis that you're seeing run worldwide mostly so yeah I have no doubt that that openness and and all kinds of things you know obviously we can't we can't stop this discussion without also understanding that that drug addiction is an unnatural pall over the human race and it will it will pick on people of every of every strata in every place in the world and obviously if we were to look at a hundred thousand prostitutes in Europe that would be perfectly capable of making a normal living we may find that fifty thousand of those people are actually suffering from a severe addiction problem and they're in trouble and they are also a cornered animal and so anyway I try to frame the discussion from a moral standpoint yeah of the notion that that in principle there is nothing in the world wrong with people having voluntary transactions around sex and money from a practical aspect the a lot of those transactions are taking place in within people that we would not call those things quote voluntary that we would call a great deal of that action the actions of desperate people who could really use help in a way that they haven't been able to find it fantastic thank you okay all right so moving on to the next question we're kind of turning the ship a little bit but the question is do dr. Lyle is emotional intelligence a real thing I recall an article saying something along the lines of people with high emotional intelligence like people listen to psychology podcasts were found to more easily believe lies Oh obviously they did not mean evolutionary psychology podcasts but this has led me to write off the whole concept of emotional intelligence as simply being empathy and agreeableness coupled with misinformation provided by mainstream psychology what are your thoughts yeah my understanding you know obviously forget who he was some part of a professor I think Daniel Goleman or somebody got got rich writing a book called emotional intelligence and the notion behind emotional intelligence I think the reason why it it struck a chord with people I mean I think a big reason for its popularity is that that people know that that intelligence is king in so many areas of life that they understand also that if they are there children are are lacking in intelligence in it we're not lacking lacking with respect to a specific competitive problem then then there they're just out of luck in other words if your kid doesn't have a 98% I like you they're not going to medical school that's just the way it is okay and if they don't have a 90th percentile IQ there's no reasonable possibility that they're going to have any effectiveness at all as a lawyer and that this is these are just these are just the realities of the situation the but that's okay if you if you want a profession and you can't make it as a doctor or a lawyer psychologist is very low the box very [Laughter] alright now higher pressures a lot low don't worry alright bye just a friend of a dental profession Oh No okay so that's a good now so the deal is is that people are very touchy about this and so one of one of the results of that touchiness is to say well there's no really such thing as intelligent and you know it's all a matter of specific abilities and really what it is it anyway and when you even it all out everybody's more or less equal they just got differences in different areas okay that's a nice socialistic let's pat everybody on the head and say that everybody's equal comment - totally absurd okay that's like saying well at the end of the day all the athletes are the same you know Billy Barty and Daniel did what's the little guy's name little actor Danny DeVito I can't remember - yeah Arnold's horse Raceway yeah I'm a fantastic actor God the guy's master the bottom line is do we really think that he and Michael Jordan are athletically really the same st. cloud folks we really think that that Albert Einstein and and some average kid in your third-grade class were really the same of course not okay brain sizes differ tremendously and brain size is correlated across the animal kingdom that the larger the brains are relative to the animal size the more intelligent animal and it's also true within species so the bigger the brains are of a human relative to its size the smarter the human being is okay talking about literally gray matter here now correlations aren't perfect but they are solidly positive the the correlation coefficient between brain size and brain / body ratio size and intelligence is correlation of 0.4 so any of you that are statisticians out there know that this is a very substantive correlation now so it's literally a lot it's a physical apparatus now the just as you would expect how big is the computer how much RAM does it have you know how fancy is the thing what's the Pentium chip like like these are physical parameters is that what the information processing capacity is the computer are the same thing is true of the mind now it's going to turn out there's a whole bunch of other stuff in the mind other than what how big your vocabulary is or how fast you can do arithmetic it's also true that we can we can measure a bunch of different aspects and across those aspects we could call these multiple intelligences if we want we could and be useful to do so some people brilliant people can't find their way home okay and can't find their way out of a wet paper bag yeah yeah this is just one of it what our smartest people I've ever known I'm going to go ahead I'll just embarrass them up already what a smartest people my acquaintance is dr. Alan Goldhamer guy just he's just really smart you know a mate you know this guy is one one smart dude and yet he cannot find his way home there's like four turns and if he misses a turn he's just totally screwed okay he's just really in trouble you never saw a man so happy the day that they came out with a GPS he was one of the first people to buy I spent a fortune I was like 2,000 bucks and he I was riding in the car with him and it kept telling him in his and this monotonic voice out of the machine that turned left to right and it would get him to the place he's like oh my god he was like a kid in a candy store which of course the wrong analogy for Alan Goldhamer he tested in candy but the bottom line is is that could you say that there's multiple intelligences I suppose you could but we're going to start nitpicking on on little things like that well the truth is a mad is is that you can you can get a good assessment as someone's general intelligence it isn't true the 735 IQ person is going to outrank 130 IQ person every time no it just means if you give them a thousand problems together that are hard and the guy with 130 IQ gets 700 of them right it's likely that the guy with 135 is going to get 707 ok it's going to show up okay it's just like the NBA the guide that's you know a 38% 3-point shooter is going to win um another couple of games across an 82-game season then a guide that's a 35% shooter I mean they're incredibly similar but there's a difference okay so this is the this is the utility of these kinds of tests and that's why they you have to go to to get into fancy colleges you have to have some score all this kind of stuff now that doesn't mean that people of intermediate level intelligence don't have moments of brilliance because they do but in in the long run it's going to turn out over a lifetime we're going to find that higher IQs have better jobs make more money make less mistakes less car accidents you know etc they make on average better decisions and we're going to find average people do average and below average people do below average and everybody can have a happy life but there's going to be advantages and everybody knows it okay now that's why you have a thing called a resume where'd you go to school what did you do what are your rewards all of it now Golemon comes along Harvard professor and says oh well there's something that's you know really important out here it's got nothing to do with intelligence we're going to call it emotional intelligence that's a whole different thing okay is there any validity to it well of course there is you've seen people to have beautiful social skill and they're not the same people that have high ideas so there is something else in the world but we gave it and you could call it emotional intelligence if you want but it's personality people it's the big five and so it's going to turn out if if there were something else in the world other than you know there was some big deal called emotional intelligence there was a personality characteristic of great interest in importance then it's going to turn out that when you used factor analysis to to to run through the personality data on human beings it would have showed up you'd be right there if you factor number six okay we're actually factoring number seven because the big five is is itself leaves out IQ it pulled that out of there because IQs is your big monster it's like well we're going to pull that out over there and then we're going to see what's left and what's left is the big five okay so yes in answer to this person's question no they did not discover some really important other personality characteristic outside personality that's called emotional intelligence they did not okay so the it is what it is you can you can look at pieces of this you've got agreeableness you've got conscientiousness you've got some extraversion in there you show me a person who is intermediately open good above average conscientiousness a you know at least average and agreeableness and it's extroverted and I'm showing you somebody with a lot of quote emotional intelligence okay let's add a good degree of emotional stability to that and we can paint a picture of something that everybody somebody that everybody likes and there that there you have it I don't like all right on we go we go right so we go for time we got one more out we got one more I added a situation that we we got a couple of months ago from a woman who has a daughter and she has a little situation so I don't know if you can see it on your end dr. Lyle it's called this one's about my daughter let me see I don't know if I got won't let me check it just add it just read to me we'll try to talk it out okay it's just a personal situation you had help this lady out with her son who refused to move out and so she did everything you said and he moved out life is happy and now he's you know cleaning up after himself in his own place so dirty while this one's about my daughter she's 23 years old she's very bright very conscientious about a 50/50 trader average openness to experience very introverted and although she's a very calm person she isn't comfortable with strangers and tend to lack confidence she graduated early last year with a degree in computer science and due to plans to go overseas with her boyfriend she didn't look for a job in this area but instead took a few easy casual jobs like packing boxes in a warehouse and cleaning motels however her plans to go overseas didn't eventuate and she is now planning to stay here for the foreseeable future but she's still not looking for a job in her area of study and I'm worried after talking with others in this field that if she allows too much time to go by that her degree won't be worth very much well when I talk to her about this she says that she's happy doing what she's doing likes the people she works with it really doesn't want to change jobs I know she's an adult maybe I should just accept her decisions about her life and leave her to it but I can't help but feel that she's letting her discomfort about going into a social situation in a new job and having a job where there's more responsibility and pressure and if she gets something wrong she might disappoint people I can't help but feel that she's letting that stop her from making the best long-term decision for herself is there a way to help her move on from her fears and do what she's planning to do for many years or should I not even be worried about this she's not really keen to talk about it so after initially raising my concerns I've backed off and have just let things be and I'll need to be very diplomatic if I'm ever to introduce the issue again right so how old is the girl again she is 23 23 okay excuse me um very very good question good deep thinking parent I understand now so let's let's back up for a second computer science changes but it doesn't change that fast and so I I wouldn't be sweating this at all the so the mom obviously has very high conscientiousness and so the mom is is sweating some bullets here but the kid is going to be running cost-benefit analysis on things like whether or not I can go to Rome next summer and whether or not my boyfriend and I can get a condo or whatever else is that she's running to see beyond and so right now she's 23 and she's just sort of she now is earning a living and she sort of is in enjoying the fact that it looks secure sometimes there's sometimes there's nothing better in the world than being underemployed the that it's just like a relaxing position of power that you you just feel like a this is not a problem so I would say that good thinking on the mom's part well-considered question I would say don't touch it yeah she made one description that the girl says you know I'm happy doing this what I'm doing that's all we needed to hear kids happy relax her her career and her career trajectory have 40 years out in front of her and she will not be making critical mistakes in the next five years that will set her up on some deficient path that she can no longer recover from that will not happen so no worries relax let it go let the kid enjoy your life
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