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Episode 113: Fear of commitment, Live callers, Evo Psych in academia, advertising, music
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all right good evening everybody it's Nate G here along with dr. Doug Lyall dr. Lyle how're you doing this fine evening yeah it all is well excellent well I'm a little bit bummed because yesterday the my one of my hockey teams the Los Angeles Kings got swept by the very first year that the lust las vegas gold Knights have been in season so it's always a little bit disappointed but I wish them all the best and tonight hopefully the Ducks don't get swept also so just a little bit of a bummer here for Southern California but you're in Northern California so the San Jose Sharks might be rootin for them I think the who ha ha ha ha the who is a band in the 80s all all fair kind of a basketball fan but hey no offense for the hockey people no all right well we got a couple of questions today fear of commitment question evolutionary psychology professors evolution psychology of advertisements and music and media and then if we can get to it why do people love music a little bit earlier this week I a good friend of mine that I've known for a long time we got a little bit of a vicious cycle which you know happens from time to time and really funny yeah I I was thinking about it the day after I thought you know this is not worth it to continue it so I decided to use your technique of flooding the circuits so I called them up and you know I practiced the anecdote and attribute at anecdote attribute anecdote you know got to three of them I did my little thing and there was silence on the other line and then my friend goes good glad you finally recognized it just beautiful [Laughter] there you go I've had to laugh internally so yeah yeah act works beautifully doctor Wow all right let's keep going with the questions enough of my personal drama hmm dear dr. Lyle of a friend who's sleeping with a beautiful smart and nice woman he said he thinks she is more attractive than he is when I asked him however he says he has a fear of commitment what is this fear of commitment that men often have is it simply typical of men who lean towards casual mating no matter how good the deal is by no means necessarily let's let's remember that as evolutionary psychology has been like a white-hot laser through the social sciences in helping us understand human nature obviously from a completely novel and for the first time scientifically grounded perspective and in the case of beauty and dynamics and relationships it's been obviously the first and only explicable viewpoint as to why it is that beauty is so important and the objectivity of beauty and it and its importance however looks aren't everything they're dead so let's keep in mind that away from me hi yeah so keep in mind that even though this guy may have a what he considers a screaming deal in the looks department there's a lot more to a committed relationship than that so the committed relationship if a male is going to to be essentially in a position psychologically where he is figuring on provisioning and again just to make clear it isn't that anybody's planning on having children it's the the concept that the relationship has that tone to it that it's activating the neural circuits that were built in stone age environments that evolved in those circumstances where females were looking for males who would stick around and provision offspring and males were willing to do so under conditions where they felt like this was an excellent deal for them well a huge card in the deck is the differential between the male's attractiveness and the females attractiveness so in this case but it is not the only card in the deck so let's keep in mind and to say that there are three major variables that are considered in analyzing any committed deal which is looks brains and personality the however we could say that in principle there's a fourth set as well that we could call circumstances does she have six kids does she have a crazy ex you know etc also you have to understand that everybody's circumstances are viewed somewhat differently with respect to what a long-term committed relationship might mean you know what's the you know what are the financial considerations what what are the other person's expectations you know people have two men in particular have to be thinking about judges and jobs and 401ks and etc etc so there's a there's a tremendous amount to consider and these are all factors and particularly in the modern environment given the fact that quote committed relationships are meaning that people are in principle trying to make extremely long-term decisions so the modern environment and the way we have our whole socioeconomic status you know set up is that that we're looking at provisioning children not for two or three or four years that might have been critical and important for females to be selecting mates for for in the Stone Age but we're talking about provisioning you know Jack I call it 25 to life you know test once we fucked a life sentence okay so any male in his right mind would have a lot of pause about commitment and and so this doesn't make them having to quote some kind of I mean you should have a very healthy fear of commitment we're so the notion that this fear of commitment is somehow in somehow some weakness or some foible or some you know some lack of maturity or lack of guts or just some little personality variable of importance actually it is completely reasonable in sensible and so anyway so the bottom line is is this guy just because he's got a good deal in terms of the looks situation and her personality is tolerable and her intelligence is tolerable doesn't mean that as he computes all these things together that he's coming up with something that is and he looks at against the context dependent upon his level of conscientiousness so remember a male that is lower in conscientiousness is a heck of a lot more likely to commit for god sakes the in other words ensure he's in you know for what well until he's not okay whereas somebody that is more more highly conscientious it's going to give them pause to look in some girl's eyes and tell her swear up and down that he's there forever so yeah this is a no-no what else to be said about this but looks are not everything they're not even close to everything are they important you bet they are but they're not going to be the the deciding factor of any male who's actually can you know thinking through what this all could mean for him fantastic yeah well I wondered if the commitment chip is something that grows over time as you get to know the girl longer just like with with girls when they evaluate the man's personality it kind of takes a couple of dates and a couple of interactions yeah I come and I think that's a very cut you know I have to hear myself talk you know I mean yeah it's just good tuck your that's a very good point in that that yeah I think that's that's beautifully said in other words they just as the the the females needs to be understanding who the male is and what it's going to mean for provisioning for her and therefore slowly integrates that into her evaluation of the male the same is going to be true for the male as he considers that provisioning it's like well you know what is this provisioning going to mean there's a huge variables as to what what it is that could mean for him depending upon the personality of this girl you know she's going to be you know crashing cars torching other people's houses and when he looks at some girl like who knows what what the costs are and benefits are going to be long-term well he also is going to require the same kind of betting and so there they are going to go through a mutual dance as they get to know each other and how that dance is playing out is going to be ultra important in considering how his commitment chip you know fires or doesn't fire fantastic alright well in these in during your answer we got two more callers in so we're will just take all these three colors as best as we can our first caller is from Seattle Andrew welcome to the program thanks for calling Thank You Nate thank you Doug hey how you doing I'm good I high school I'm a high school teacher uh-huh and I've got questions about the 15 year old male mind okay oh I've observed oh and my colleagues have observed how attached they are to the games to the video games they gain on their phones right you're literally walking down the hallway and what they have what we call head-on collisions or they just bump right into each other because they're looking at your phones playing these video games and then they go home and it's incredibly addicting like now shockingly how much it taps into them and they play these online games and sort of enter this room they break up into teams and they have to work together to play some variation of capture the flag and of the other is the language and the communication gets really raw and not because they're not looking at each other they're just it's all virtual yeah and then you know they tend to snap out of it at a time there is junior or senior because you know this girls and they like get careers but I do know of one extreme case where this young man got so addicted he wind up graduating a number two in his school but then his parents do Wars and then his father tragically died he heard a bunch of money went on to college and played nothing but videogames lost his scholarship then four or five years later all his friends are going on getting married inventing careers and you never finished college and just basically just spread all over the heroness and had nothing yeah so your question is that Holloman yeah how does evolution psychology relate to that 15 year-old male mind yeah well what's going on is that the content of the games is beautifully matched to the cont the content area problems that the male mind was built for which was you know basically resource management in warfare and and hunting so that's pretty much what that mind is built for and that's pretty much what that mind is interested in so you know 50 years ago it was young men looking at baseball cards memorizing statistics and trading baseball cards etc etc and then being the guy who knew who had the longest hitting streak and the second longest hitting streak and all that sort of thing so it's the same it's the same essentially informational content what's happened now is that with the with the video capabilities now and the programming capabilities what's happened is is that we've now turned that into a super normal stimulus so now the mind can get closer to a feel of the success in hunting and warfare obviously with nothing other than just moving their wrists so this is what it is and it's it's not going anywhere in other words it's just going to get more sophisticated more sophisticated and pretty soon we're going to have the you know Star Trek holodeck where you're going to have a three-dimensional version of this thing I had absolutely coming the incidentally that will probably revolutionize human sexuality before too long the so that's kind of where this is going now the what will snap people out of it usually which sounds like this young men's headed this way is that he's going to be broke and so it broke no career no no way to get a job friends have moved on suddenly net now the best thing that could ever happen to him was to lose all his money so now he's going to actually have to face the actual constraints that are put on animals which is poverty and hunger and so then then things will start to iron themselves out so this is the problem with inherited wealth and having things too easy is that one way or another this is just a version of the pleasure trap and evolutionary biology is sitting right inside the pleasure trap in other words that's what it is the the pleasure trap is when we alter the modern environment in such a way that we make the stimuli we process the stimulation in a way that is beyond what what could have been ever achieved in the stone-age environment where the neural circuits for those values evolved so yeah you can trap yet you can trap it with drugs you can trap it with with pornography you can trap it with more warfare and and resource acquisition you know virtual actions you get a virtual feedback you can you can trap it with music a lot of ways to trap it and sort and certainly food is the is a monster in this domain so yep it's just another drug and it won't get it's only going to get so many of them for so long and it's it's this isn't this isn't heroin thank goodness but it can occasionally it can grab a life and not let it go so very good call thank you and I'm sure you get to you get to see an awful lot of this be in a high school teacher I'm sure Andrew thank you very much for the phone call thank you both you bet thank you Andrew very much for the call alright our next caller caller what's your name and then we you cone from it Philip then I'm calling from the Seattle area very good i undersea adelaide it excellent bill you're the guy that was you're the guy he was talking about alright Joe that is Philip what's up hey III then I'm kind of a newcomer to evolutionary psychology but it's real fascinating and I'm finding a behavior within a specific group puzzling and I was hoping you could if if you could expand on a little bit so I you spent most of my life playing hockey and and it was very similar to most people in the room until you know age and you know the Cherry ation skills have kind of gotten the better of me so I'm kind of getting my fix now with competitive pinball which yeah believe it or not is a real big thing in the Pacific Northwest so in fact that gives my proposition fix yeah anyway the the group that's attracted to pinball is it well it tastes a lot different than you know the group that played hockey this is a mostly middle-aged crowd there's a hash-table X's there's some social and attitudes and some cues that they're there I mean they're very intelligent they're very creative they're they're a really smart group with just a little socially awkward I guess you can put it put it not a lot of them have great careers and and I see most of them are in romantic relationships I'm kind of getting the idea that a lot of them don't want to be and of course it's male-dominated probably do a clip of about 90% anyway so what's happened recently as my wife and I are trying to have a baby and that's kind of been a part of a discussion with the local tournaments and my Monday night team and and and the reaction that I've received kind of surprisingly I didn't there hasn't seem to be any kind of expression or excuse me exception is how they did the dreadful thought that they have of having children and how that would impact their lives so negatively and it's it's so consistent amongst everybody and their and and their passion coming from their voice that that this would be a terrible thing if that ever happened to them and so I've been engaging them a little more as you know the discussions going on I'm like is there no scenario you can find whether it's going to give you purpose and meaning and and now no they they kind of affirm that children would ruin their lives and I I'm wondering if you based on web describes you have any insights on why that kind of the case why these these these pinball geese I guess for lack of a better word just it just Brett at the thought of having children I know it's great I mean this is a great question and the sometimes when we try to answer things you're you're likely dealing with a fairly small sample of people so you're probably talking about what it doesn't I doesn't know definitely that I speak too closely but I'm probably more of a collection of 25 yeah okay yeah and and it is this sounds I don't even know what sport this is tell me describe it to me a little bit oh Ken ball yeah it's so this is this is kind of an antiquated game it's been around since the fifties but you plunge a ball into a playing surface where there's lots of lights and targets to hit and you use to individual flippers to send the bio I okay and I know what that is I knew I'd be okay I thought okay so this is truly I II the pinball wizard alright so yeah this is a very people that are that are going to be really into pinball this is not a random sample of people no no these are it's a most competitive of the people around here yeah that's that's pretty much yes right yeah this is going to be these are some some odd ducks personality-wise and so it doesn't particularly surprise me that this would be that something like this would be found not necessarily the most normal people when it comes to connecting with others and finding a lot of value in those kind of connections the obviously if you can sit there and play pinball for hours and hours and hours and hours and hours by yourself this is not this is a you know this is a somewhat unusual personality type so and that's where when we put their resources and energy and so on and so forth so yeah I think you've got an odd sample of individuals that are not that are not human relationship typical and as a result it's actually interesting that they you know there's a similar I've had a similar feedback over my career that I have gotten very interesting feedback about what it is that I do for a living so I will have people say oh my god I can't believe poor you what you do you know you have to talk to these people it's like hilarious okay like to be there's really nothing more interesting when I have people that I'm going to be talking to it's like I wonder what the problems are going to be with this one it's like it's like Christmas like I'm opening up a package and you know the Messier Messier it is more thing it get add really it's not it's not even and obviously when you're a young clinician and some some ladies start to crying in the eight minutes into the session and people are watching you behind the glass you're like oh my god I'm doing terrible and now what am I supposed to do I'm supposed to act like I know what I'm doing and oh but this is a bad session it's a bad session so I mean there's a learning curve where you have to learn about a lot of things and but then at this point in the game it's like oh there's no problem this is just a normal human action normal process even you know it's certainly there are there are problems that come up where you feel compassion because you feel the person is truly in a bind so when you have very serious things you have no I don't know you have terminal illnesses you have very sick children you have damage being done in people's or relationships or their ability to make a living or compromise there there are bad things that happen that will hit your humanity but mostly no mostly that's not what's happening mostly the problems are or you're in there in an effort to join with somebody and solve problems and try to figure things out for the better not a problem okay similar to an engineer like I look at computer problems I'm like I'm ready I'm ready to take this thing and throw it out the window okay I want to call up whoever built it and scream that's how I am whereas some of these computer people are like what's the problem it's kind of interesting okay so things are remarkably different in terms of how their personalities are built and these folks are not built the way most parents are built and so it's no surprise I've had other people of course are here about what it is that I do and they're like oh gosh I wish I did that oh I would love to do psychology blah blah blah blah okay so huge individual variation and I think that you are correct Phillip that you're what has happened here is that this game and the fascination with it is an effective personality test and it's it's it's telling us that these are sort of low oxytocin you know not not heavy attachment not heavy empathy animals and they're kind of they're introverted and and the other kind of that's who they are so no worries got it thank you thanks for thanks for calling it's good been quite doctor thank you Nate yep you bet all right so up thank you very much for the phone call really great question yeah all right our next caller Jennifer welcome to the program thanks for calling thank you I'm so excited to have a chance to talk with you both very good all right well tell assister well first of all where you from Jennifer I live in the Los Angeles area all right very good all right we'll tell us a story what's going on on what what question do we have okay well I first have to say I love your program I just start listening on the podcast okey and now I've devoured every episode and just have been so surprised at how much sort of comfort it's brought me in dealing with all of my dated to give clarity that things don't seem so random and I feel like I can be more at choice with decisions in my life and relationships and it's just fabulous so I just want to thank you first off oh good yeah so I'm actually in a new stage in my life after divorcing my ex-husband and at your podcast is and wonderful were really helping me understand why I married him I married a extremely conscientious fantastic man I married him for all these great genetic reasons and it also helped me understand why I made a really good decision and not staying married with him because I we just weren't a match in ways that really fulfilled me so but that's not what I'm calling about right now so I'm in this new era of dating and not so what I'm curious to learn from you is give any advice on how to date when someone is not looking for a pair bond young children at home before career I'm financially stable and quite frankly I don't want to bring a partner into my kid's life I don't want to bring any attention away from them they're my focus so I've got a 50/50 time split with my ex-husband so I have free time to socialize but I kind of want to keep it more superficial and I'll tell you I've had fun dating in this new era of my life but what I find that what's really fun about it is I no longer have the checklist that I use if someone be a suitable mate and it's the right parent for future children so now I'm just dating for fun which really is it opens me up to dating people that I otherwise would have ruled out for various reasons but what I find happening is I can't sustain those relationships because you know my genes take over and I worrying about status and I start worrying about you know particularly I eat they can be attractive on certain levels and I don't know I'm kind of talking in circles I won that's okay I talk about you know I think we're getting a clear go ahead okay like I think about the last relationship that I had and this was someone just you know a really solid guy and you know probably his level of attractive attractiveness would have been considered beneath mine so as a result he was crazy about me and without that was that was fabulous and we had a lot of fun together and but I found that it was unsustainable because it's over time it kind of chipped away at me and I and I thought about calling the show during that relationship like is there anything I can do to beat my genes in a situation like that knowing that I'm not looking for a Paragon how can I continue to enjoy this relationship knowing that I don't want to take it further Jeff any advice sort of around that I know it's not usually what your your coaching people your kind of coaching people to meet their mate and have that be successful for as long as it can be successful yeah you know I think I think you're trying to meet your mate anyway that's the deal and so what you're what you're doing here is in other words you can you can see that that's where the programming is the exactly yes and what you're what you're actually doing here is you're doing something very interesting you have the luxury now that you're you're no longer on the clock and we're no longer you know staring at birthdays trying to figure out we're going to have children trying to figure out this you know you're you are a peek into the 22nd century there's not a lot of people that basically have a your your ex is not some crazy stalking fact has attorney faxing your attorney hauling you to court you know financial you know sob no no everything like we've got we probably have kids that everything's fine everybody's healthy everybody's got nice personalities everybody's doing fine in school everybody plays well with others like oh okay we've got like all these problems solved okay so now what you get to do is to figure out how to quote enjoy yourself because we're not putting out fires and trying to deal with deficiencies thanks Ari that's where you are so that means that what you're really doing at this point you you are you are doing we're human nature is headed and where it's been aiming for you know forever but you're now living there and so now now what you get to do is you get to do this is what I call parametric research so you get to fiddle around with a lot of parameters and you have an intuition about this is let me give this broad explanation here now can have it if you have an intuition about the parameters that it would take with respect to looks brains personality and circumstantial situations for you to be really happy with somebody okay you have an intuition about it but you are not sure of that intuition and the the reason is is that you're who you are is a set of neural circuits the the preferences that you have have not really been shaped by experience they are actually they're already innate to you and what happens is is that your job is to discover them okay so the so there's Harry Brown uses a word that I think is good it's a facsimile for what I would call personality yeah but it's got an interesting ring to it he just says this is your identity this is who it is that you are and then who you are has certain characteristics and what's going to happen is is our job is to discover what those characteristics are now through your interactions with the world you might find out you like tall dark and handsome or you may like average height really strong as an ox and blonde and I'm saying you may like guys that are athletic and like to ski and see how fast they can get down the mountain or you may like guys that actually like to go to the Opera and discuss you know what happened there right so it turns out that there's a whole set of variables out there that your nervous system does not know what the optimal combination is for you all it can do is it can estimate it okay okay and it estimates it when you meet new people and get a look at those parameters and then watch what happens to you inside you okay this is exactly like tasting food at a smorgasbord like you can suspect what it is that you think that's going to taste like but and it looks similar to something that you tasted a month ago at the same smorgasbord but it's you can tell it's a little bit different so the question is I liked it I can about a seven last time but this time I'm not sure okay so if I taste it it could be a six but it might be a ten you know I mean I don't know what it's so what you should have inside your brain your brain does have this it has a what we're going to it has what we call openness to experience and one that openness is is it's a the brain is running a cost-benefit analysis on the amount of time and energy that it should utilize in order to explore these parameters okay so every animal for example would have a roaming Rindge that would be basically ideal for that species yeah if you were a little and yeah if you're a little bigger and stronger animal you're probably going to have a little wider roaming range same thing that may very well be possible and so in your case effectively you're a bigger stronger animal in other words you've you've got your reproducing done that you probably want to do in all the capability and you've got finances that you you are not like upset at your job and want to leave it blah blah blah now I've got a great career right now so we've got everything great so now what we get to do is we get to fiddle with the romantic side of the system and try to figure out what is the what are the optimal combination of parameters okay that can you mind if I interrupt you just for a second because I I wonder if you missed a kind of the piece of the equation that I specifically don't want a deep pair-bond connection because my kids are so young I just I don't want to bring a man into their world so I don't like intentionally trying to keep things light and like I sort of want to avoid meeting mr. right because I don't feel like that'll be too big of a distraction yeah that's really interesting um yeah possible okay I'm hearing you and and I think that I think that's in that's in sort of an if you if you were to look at that and we were to transport this problem back into the Stone Age environment what you're suggesting makes no sense exactly you've got three two or three little kids you know whatever it is your brain should be saying where can I get the most outstanding perfect protection and provision that I can get and I find myself battling that for myself I feel that that sort of internal Drive and I'm fighting against it because I don't want that right now yeah the fact that you don't want it is curious the the I'm not saying like I'm not trying to talk you into it I'm just saying that what we are observing that the way your nervous system appears to be designed would be ideal for the stone-age environment telling you to find it okay and it's telling you what but what you because you've got a leisure in the process because we're not under the gun because we don't have screaming little frightened children because we don't have that situation you are at your leisure to to action to actually do a very open-ended parametric investigation of yourself now so that's what you're doing so you're saying hey we'll listen of what I want to do in principle what you would want to do is you would I believe you let me let me try to get this straight you're you've got some set of neural circuits for interactions that take place between two adult partners that cause human happiness to fire in it the effectively any relationship where there's any chemistry at all this thing I would call this it's like an instrument think of it as a piano sure yeah if you if you have a think of a little fourteen note piano a little tiny midget piano okay on that piano that's some guy that meets one a couple of criteria in an interesting way he's just an interesting enough and your nervous system can experience certain things as a result and if you play plenty we play those tunes and you get a certain experience out of it not bad okay and then we get somebody that they can it can hit other notes okay I believe the most the most exquisite experience possible for human beings is to meet somebody who has the widest possible range for you in terms of what could that's going to be the handsomest most athletic most suave funniest emotionally stable and interesting loving tough you know successful socially attractive and wanted an admired human being that you could ever qualify for yeah okay that if you qualified for them and they qualified for you that is the most intense interesting sustainable positive mood of happiness input that is possible for you in the romantic arena mmm-hmm l so the so that's what you're aiming for whether you want to aim for it or not yeah what you may be saying is look you can almost hear the footsteps of the Stone Age brain saying well gee you know if a guy's pretty darn good take the project protection and provision and you know okay then and part of you is saying no I don't it's going to be a mess I've got kids I'm not so sure about that and really what I would like is I would like to explore these parameters and because within those parameters by exploring these parameters be more completely with with a variety of potential suitors that what you get to do is you get to discover things about yourself you start discovering how are you happier with the guy that likes to race down the mountain and ski and beat everybody or are you happy at the Opera okay it's like it's hard to know because there are different kinds of music inside the female nervous system I had a young lady tell me that she was dating wrong side of the track kind of young men and they were in a little bit of a challenging situation socially there's a little rough on some Friday or Saturday night somewhere with you know below writing Chevy's and God knows what else was going good and this guy wasn't a big guy and he looked at her and he said get in the car okay yelled at her like get in the car and she said she got in the car she's all turned on ha ha ha sure ok so like what did we see there okay we saw an esteem signal that said to her in the crudest most absolutely believable fashion that you are really sexually important to me okay yeah I don't want anybody else coming you're so sexually attractive this is dangerous okay and I don't want to have to get in a knock-down drag-out thing for my life okay and that's that where you are going to I'm telling you what to do yes is strangely you know very exciting moment for now so this is you would not until you have experienced it you wouldn't know that you really liked somebody that wanted you and found you that important that badly okay so as you had a situation where on no doubt you were pursued with heat by your ex-husband enough so he got married and all that but this other guy that that you met recently there was wacko about you where the differential was greater at least objectively on his part you got to feel what it felt like to have somebody falling all over themselves and it was an interesting music okay so these are this is kind of what it is it's you're up to now so I would say that yeah an answer to your real question is gee how can I trick my brain into not rule out getting rid of them and the answer is you can't trick your brain no way okay your brain has an agenda and that agenda is the best interest of your children and the best interest of your children are to have the coolest most phenomenal stepdad you can find but isn't your podcast called beat your jeans yeah well good luck meetings sometimes you can beat it sometimes you can so I think that's what you're beating your jeans would be to be near jeans would be to recognize that as you are actually that these that you're not depended upon these romances to forever yeah yeah I want to keep things in a situation you want to actually keep yourself in a position of power with respect to the relationship between any new male and your children you want to get those boundaries up for a long time okay yes oh hell yeah until the point where as I tell people you don't get married you discover if you are right yeah that's it you just keep the barriers up between you and your children and you enjoy yourself and when you wrote rule people out when you're Stone Age brain rules them out then the fun's over come on we're on to the new piano yeah and generally have don't really you really are not say about that just suddenly it's just not there anymore you know this is a fascinating thing that this caught this is is the most I am sure the most complicated cost-benefit analysis that's done by any any mind in the known universe is romantic cost-benefit oh yeah yeah okay there is more considerations about genes survival going on with that consideration than anything else and you know when it's good you know it and when it's not good you know it mm-hmm and you can you can take a left brain analysis of this thing down to you know three decimal places and it's not as good as the right brain man the right brain sniffs it all over the place she tells you what to do yeah so that's how it works and we don't have any choice about that yeah okay yeah that was great thank you so much such a treat to talk with you I really a great pleasure Jennifer thanks for calling
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