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Episode 103: Family conflict turns into 8 years of unresolved rumination
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good evening everybody this is Nate G with the beat Eugene's podcast dr. Lyle how are you doing this evening it is elf doing pretty good so we've got a couple of questions today but before we get to them so we've been doing this podcast cup podcast for a couple years and I just got this email from one of our listeners dear dr. Lila I wanted to update you on a situation you gave me some advice on last year and then I'll explain what happened dear dr. Lau last year my 19 year old son was causing me great concern after losing his job being unmotivated to get a new job spending all his time playing video games becoming very uncooperative with doing any chores and appearing very low motivate low motivated but while he advised me to set a date for him to move out and then talked about how to go about doing this what to say it cetera well I did what you recommended he seemed very unimpressed and uninterested in my declaration that this was what needed to happen however I persisted in occasionally reminding him that this was going to happen whether he was ready or not one week before his deadline he still had not found a job or a place to live and being the mother that I am I was so worried that I contacted the men's shelter in our city who assured me that there was a place for him there where he would have a safe place to sleep and even two free meals a day however a few days later he found a flat situation with a friend and a couple weeks after that he got a job he later moved into a flat with my daughter and her friends she has since reported back to me that he is much happier he socializes with his flatmates and has even become like the house mother by nagging everyone to clean up their mess in the kitchen wonders will never cease he saved up enough money to spend a month traveling around Japan with a friend and my relationship with him seems a lot easier as well I can even have an occasional and pleasant conversation with them staying strong and making him move out was one of the best and most difficult decisions I have made in my life and I'm truly grateful for your help without which I don't think I could have done it well how cool is that that's the I should have a name for for that scenario the essentially the we want some a literation that it has do it mother that you know the over-mothering mother and these are I run into this fairly commonly where moms have such a phenomenal psychological and emotional investment and in their kids and when their kids are struggling and stuck mom is mystified and she does everything she possibly can and twists herself into a pretzel and this is this is what I call working too hard okay this is a this is when you're working too hard and this is when we we have to make the little critter start to struggle for itself and this is just this terrific to get this feedback I always enjoy getting feedback like this I'm not I'm not a bit surprised I'm I'm fascinated with some of the details like how he he waited around to the last second said that's just I'm surprised obviously there could have been one more notch where he didn't get out and then you have to show him the door etc the that gets to be a mess because you you actually then have to you have to threaten him with the cops and you have to give him 30 days formal notice and in depending upon the state that you're in there's processes that can get stickier but terrific just a terrific outcome and it's what we would expect that that he was well capable of flying on his own that that big bird was sitting in the nest with his mouth wide open staring down at his mother and and he needed to be shown the door terrific I'm really happy that that she she let us know that's great thank you date yeah yeah thank you very much for listener for letting us know and okay so we have a caller on hold who's been waiting to ask dr. Weil a question so we are going to welcome Kathy Kathy welcome to the show okay hi there how you doing Kathy I'm good dr. Lyle good how are you good good all as well well tell me what yeah what's going on what are we trying to get better I have a challenge for you I have an open loop an open loop challenge for you okay all right so this this has been going on for eight years that I think about this and I can't seem to come to a conclusion I've been to five therapists mm-hmm none of which have been extra especially helpful as you can imagine if I'm still dealing with it I'll try to give a little background just about me first I am 39 years old I'm happily married for ten years two young boys stay at home mom currently but I'm also a nurse practitioner before I started to stay home my father passed away from pancreatic cancer eight years ago there was an incident that happened right before he died after which my immediate family of origin threw me under the bus so to speak I haven't seen my siblings in eight years my mom and I have a very strange relationship to the point where I'm wondering if she ever really had an attachment to me and if she keeps me touch with me out of obligation mm-hmm so my questions have always been is this my fault was my family already fractured before everything had before the fallout yeah is it possible that my family never really did care about me or never was really attached to me mm-hmm and now what do I do for this for my own sake for my husband's sake and for my kids sake and I can give more background okay now that's good all right so just vaguely the I'm trying I'm trying to get a out where what area the country that you live in I live in California gotcha and and your how many siblings do you have I have one sister who's one year older and I have a fraternal twin brother okay and if one brother who's a fraternal twin okay all right so all you guys are very close in age the and where where does your sister live New Mexico they're all of them live in New Mexico my brother sister and my mom and my siblings are now married with kids okay and your mom lives in New Mexico and do they live nearby each other yes within 20 minutes okay all right so they're a little coalition there that's what they are and your sister does she have any kids she has two young boys two young boys okay and how about your brother he has one young girl one young girl okay all right and so now let's walk through where were you living at the time when your dad passed away I was living in Texas with my husband no kids yet we had been married for two years already and I was the first out of the nest to be married I've been told we had in meshed family if that gives some information so very very close but not in a good way everybody was in each other's business my dad was a bit of a narcissist and everything revolved around him and pleasing him he was a dentist so you know we were very compliant children very grayble I'm extremely conscientious worked very hard in school tried never to give my family any trouble cuz you didn't want it you didn't want to deal with your dad's wrath right right and we were raised Catholic but um and I went the same Catholic school college as my sibling that's pretty unusual we all went to the same prestigious Catholic College at the same time I was very very involved in campus ministry I was in a liturgical choir I did Bible study I was really trying to find some truth after I got married I realized that there was no there there for me and I started reading a lot and questioning a lot right I read The God Delusion for one example just really doing a lot of soul-searching and at the same time the Catholic Church's pedophilia scandal was kind of blowing up um and it it got to me so at the time my husband I stopped attending church and that was kind of our own path I went home to visit my dad while he was being treated for cancer and happened to be there for Easter and I don't know why I had the balls to do this but I told my mom hey my husband and I aren't going to church tomorrow we're going to go for a walk instead that's just what I'm feeling right now and she said that's fine you're an adult you make your own decisions mm-hmm well after she told my dad he was livid and she changed her mind immediately one and didn't didn't back me up of course at that point it turned into a big argument my sister got involved my brother was not in town at the time and it wasn't like a it was ugly it to the point where the trip ended i apologized profusely you know just trying to get in good graces and went back home to Texas and it kept coming up in in phone calls and they were getting more and more um vicious just kept bringing it up and I kept apologizing and never cleared I couldn't even go home to to be there when my dad passed away because it was so volatile Wow what a what an event yeah let's look at this just a little bit so see it you are so you got your 39 you were married about how old I was 28 about to turn 29 and you're and you had already had a degree as a nurse practitioner correct I had three degrees at that point out two bachelors in the masters okay and and your husband what did he study and what does he do for a living he's an attorney and was also a military officer okay interesting and and let's let's try to understand the the the walking on trying trot doing some backpedaling that you did to try to stay in good graces give me a little feel if you can for what you were thinking about why this was useful necessary desirable what what is it that we are worried about when we have an ailing father that is you know screaming and carrying on and basically being you know completely out of control so give me a feel for is did he have a large estate was he did he promise and threaten financial repercussions what what the where is the power there there is a just sheer psychology of psychology I mean everything that he left went to my mom mm-hmm so that's not like there was going to be a payout right um but but no is I mean the whole the whole function of the family was to try to win his admiration and affection because it could turn on a dime and I said I felt like my mom was always boosting him up he was a bit of an emotional child in the sense that no you know all of the things that we were rushing to do were helping make him see like a better person and at the end of his life he was not one for self-examination and I think they're being forced being given a terminal diagnosis and being forced to examine your life was not at all what he was prepared to do and he was lashing out and angry there were no hallmark moments of I'm really going to ask you I'm very proud of you I love you and that's what I definitely desperately wanted yeah interesting yeah okay so now another thing that's interesting about this is that as as pleasant and agreeable as you sound and profess to be the this is a hell of a thing to be having a knock-down drag-out argument about so give me a feel for what goes on in your head as as you're getting like who is it that confronted you this Easter is it did your dad confront you who who fired the first shot uh yeah I think it was my dad but it was my dad and then my sister came rushing into the kitchen to see you know to get in on the argument because she liked to see me go down shoot about it she was jealous and single and living at home at the time and right I think she was savoring it and on it next and yeah I'm wondering she may have a personality disorder that's kind of my my thinking but I don't know I was like Oh Apple wouldn't have fallen far from the tree then right okay I know there was a I was told I was throwing the baby out with the bathwater the my dad didn't under always got offended when someone would bring up the church scandal because he felt he took it personally for summer even though he wasn't devoutly Catholic he would go to church on Sundays but that's about it but he didn't eat though you know he always felt like that was a ding on his character if his Jewish friends brought it up right oh you dare me to bring it up I guess yeah yeah yeah so your dad fell like most of the the the pedophilia scandal came up in the art in the discussion yes that's a helping to bring in the discussion so the essentially we're at Easter you go there why are we even there so your dad's sick or what why are we making the visit just trying to be there as much as possible and and I visited him because of his illness got it but the irony is that I visited seven times in the nine months from diagnosis to death and I really didn't feel like it really mattered that much to him I would show up and try to be present and be there but he would just kind of go about his business and my husband I would do our thing and I again I was always looking for that connection and waiting for the conversation and it didn't happen yeah I was awkward right so let me get this straight now I want to make sure I had the timeline so he gets a diagnosis and then these visits happen and then was a late visit when he was pretty deep in trouble that Easter or did the Easter happen before his diagnosis Easter happened two months before he died but he was still up and about and very out if he wasn't on Hospice he wasn't in pain about it all right so you're going in there to to essentially pat him on the head and show him that you care about him it's kind of what's going on yeah and you you go there and it happens to be Easter and therefore Easter is this you know there's good at this big expectation that people are going to go to church and you tell your mom hey I'm not going to go okay and and your mom's like hey your big role you know I respect that and then somehow your dad gets wind of it goes ballistic right so so let's let's look at this sort of in slow motion so the you know would you stay with your parents or did you come into town and stay in a hotel where were you actually located when this goes down my childhood bedroom ah okay in my childhood bedroom yeah let me get this no way to say that's where you're staying that's renting okay and are you there with your husband or by yourself with my husband okay so you and your husband are in your childhood bedroom overnight in your parents house yeah okay so they're uh so you're there is this is this yeah so and your sisters there is your brother there as well no he was in graduate school and I don't think he was coming to town got it so your sisters there you're there with your husband your sister is annoyed that are you married at this point I'm married for two years at this plant got it so you're married so she's not so that makes you higher status and and she's and she's a year older so she's looking like an old maid comparatively and are you more attractive than your sister or similar what would you say yes yes okay more attracted got it so you're more attractive than your sister your husband is attorney military pretty freaking cool okay amazingly he's pleasant enough to be willing to stay in your house yeah it was a mistake okay yeah it's a mistake it will be the last time he makes up this yeah okay but he does okay he's quit theoretically welcome there you're married and everything is cool your your dad has no small amount of attachment to Catholicism or he wouldn't have sent you all three to a private school for college mm-hmm okay so this is no this is no small part of his identity okay so this this is his team okay so you however you've sort of now wandered from the flock and with obviously all kinds of good reasons and you're pursuing truth so that you can have a better functioning mind than you know then those who who don't do such questioning all right all fair enough and so as your husband sort of joined you in this intellectual request along the way yeah he was ahead of it he was ahead of me in the quad and I thought I think I thought I was going to pull him back into my my fold and it went the other way okay so so yeah and your husband pleasant or somewhat disagreeable stable strong dominant easygoing what's his story very stable uh-uh cool as a cucumber while this all went down he was standing next to me and calmly explaining he did not get upset even yell he didn't cry I was crying right I was devastated so yeah he's cool as a cucumber he's wondering why I can't just let go and move on okay all good yeah all right so yeah he's basically calmly defending your position and now let's let's look at this this argument that blows up so you're who you're you've told your mother then you've gone about your business now tell me what actually goes down who comes in invade to space and how does this conversation even come up I think I went to the back of the house and then eventually came to the kitchen and my dad said what's this about you not going to church there you go and she hit my mom it actually told me she didn't think my dad was going to go so she said that mine you're an adult I don't think dad's feeling up to it so you can stay home with him so I thought all right have that bonding moment well no he changed his mind he changed his mind as soon as he heard that I was probably not going okay so that is when it started so you're he's what seated at the kitchen table yes okay and you're you're walking into the kitchen you're thinking that this is all going to be fine you're not looking for a fight you just don't feel like going to church okay and and so you told your mom because that was the softer place to announce that and figuring your mom could leak it to the to the the King and then you know that this would be therefore it's not like you go or and announce to the king to pick a fight you're leaking it through channels the way you know politicians do it and so the you leak this thing and it turns out so your dad doesn't come stalking you and yelling he waits until you you get into his environment and he says what's this about you not going to church okay alright and then tell me what happens um I think I started explaining this is just what I'm I'm feeling today I would like to have some some space and some time to reflect by myself and go for a walk with my husband and this isn't counseling with what's going on in the church right now this is my spiritual journey I'm this is just where I am today you know I think I thought I was thinking I thought I would remind myself and I'm very mature wait I'm someone who was living away from home and married for two years I felt like I was a mature adult that could explain myself and that should be well-received my husband was outside shooting hoops in the driveway at the time and my dad said well what does he think of it unless god that's very interesting yeah so so what happens is is that he's not exactly sure of his ground okay he's a declining almost dead head narcissist and your husband is young and strong and military and an attorney and he he has the measure of your husband that your husband is young wage is your husband relative to you he's only two years older than I am got it so at the time he's he is what 33 33 so he's a he's a young guy but he's how tall was he 510 got it how tall is your dad about the same height yeah what was your husband's what your husband's build medium build he's not a big guy but he was he's a he stands tall she's in right at 160 pounds 9 about 180 I don't know this is no freaking joke a 511 510 180 pound Marine is no fricking joke okay so your dad had a look you know narcissistic is he is he's feeling a little intimidated okay really oh yeah so he does and he does a little check what your husband think of this okay you want he's trying to find the lay of the land here okay okay all right so tell me so tell me what happens next well I went out to my husband and I said the shit just hit the fan you need to come inside the way way way is going way too fast for me okay so your dad says what does your husband think of this now what happens I said well he agrees with me okay you know we're a team I think I said we're a team were two Veronica run this together oh it's that okay and then what happens and and he said well I think he asked further for Jeremiah's my husband's opinion and I said well I'll go get him you can talk to him yourself okay so actually so he's not yelling and screaming and being hysterical he's just sort of confronting you oh he's visibly angry though he's visibly angry but he's just confronting again okay and he's like well what does your husband think of this and you say he stands with me etc and this he so does he then how does the cross-examination continue or accusation or threat what what makes you go get your husband out of the driveway I think just the fact that he was asking what what he thought I felt like my husband should speak up for himself and frankly I wanted the support because my sister and my mom were there at that point sure I was feeling like I would you know the price numbered you're all right okay all right so you go how big is this house um it's pretty good-sized got it so it's a little bit of a hike to get out to the driveway to get them yeah all right so you so you go get them and your and you tell them it's the fan and you're getting essentially you're getting confronted and how's your husband react oh he's shocked he thought he was playing backup or not dinner you know like you know that exactly all the stories you told them about your dead father you're starting to get credibility by the by the nanosecond right okay all right this is good what this is a fabulous thing that happened in your life because your husband had your dad passed away and he had not had witnessed this okay he he would never actually have had the opportunity to see this in action so this was a good thing right now okay so let's so you get your you get your husband who's like this is like right so marine he doesn't have any fear of this situation so you go in there and now tell me what happens well we walk around outside for a bit so I can fill them in good and then we head towards the house you know and my sister is standing in front of the front door which leads right into the kitchen yeah and with her hands on this is where it gets funny her hands on her hips says my full name and says do not come into this house if you're going to come in angry ah I'm 31 years old and I tell her step aside Oh Sidon careers these are like Napoleonic columns like the your sister is lining up behind dad okay lining up behind alpha and his money and and that rejecting you and you're the you're the pretty head younger sister who's married and you can go yourself that is exactly exactly right Nathan is going to have to edit that you know a little bit telling this alright so yeah alright so now we we go and your sisters does this you tell her step aside I'm with a marine just get out of my way Punk okay alright so now you go in a kitchen and tell me what happens now well this is the best part so I tell her step aside I'm coming in and she starts walking briskly behind me basically waving a finger and I said step aside I'm you know this is my conversation I don't know what I said and she said Oh at the top of her lungs again my full name we live with cancer in this house oh yes yes okay yeah now I'm the one that deserves an inheritance if there's any special consideration about how any of the spoils of any of this is going to get divided one day yeah keep in mind that I'm on the correct team that's a little bird chirping for resources oh okay okay all right I wouldn't know that yes all right so hey you do my job long enough you follow the money Wow okay all right so and your husband is what behind her he's behind her he thinks she's a complete nothing she total nutcase sure he's not he's not seeing all these not seeing through these motivations but it's disgusting okay right all right so but he's not afraid of a fight this is this is me he's had he's put up with little midget junior officers that were tougher than this so all right so we we go into the where we going into the kitchen now where your dad and your mom are yeah mom and dad are seated at the dining table and my sister is hovering to the side and my husband and I are I'm sitting at a countertop got it and I'm standing next to me standing next to you okay and so are you actually at the countertop are you looking down on your parents or wait and uh what's that I am I'm sick I'm gonna see it at a barstool got it that makes sense and so he's your husband's looking down your parents are at the table seeded defended by the table and essentially in the official position of the head of business okay yeah all right so and now tell me what happens next I think I started going off and defending myself they came I'm making this educated argument I'm going to explain exactly why it'll seem rational they'll see though this is where I am right now they'll get back off and give me space ROM okay any other way I had it yeah yeah go ahead let me get this straight so you don't wait for him he doesn't do an angry cross-examination you are you're sort of pleading your case to have a peaceful agreement yes okay got it okay just your your feeling in a subjugated position all kinds of reasons why that would be true and that's fine so that that'll make sense so you do your little explanation etc and then tell me what happens I think he just I don't know if he even took any of it in he said you're throwing out the baby with the bathwater I should have sent it to New Mexico State mm-hmm got it laughter I've wasted my money on the Catholic fans yeah well did I would interest is my whole life raising you is kind of how it felt okay got it okay and you'll see he ended up what else did you say those are the big ones I remember we had talked a couple days prior about this the Catholic Church scandal and I was saying how much how appalled I was and he said well you know it's not like they killed those boys mm-hmm and my jaw dropped mm-hmm so this is somebody who doesn't quite understand well didn't understand the the emotional impact of something like that either um so I think as I think I had brought that up again I was making a theological argument so yeah he just said you're throwing out the baby with the bathwater not all priests are bad and mm-hmm that's about all he had right he stalked over to the living room to watch football on my sister sat on the side of his chair and basically yeah Stroeve - ego about it okay so like let's get this straight so the best your dad has is to say you're throwing out the baby with the bathwater just because there's some bad apples doesn't make the whole religion bad and it's kind of all the bullets he has and his gun and he then leaves the argument fair enough okay so tell me tell me what about this I mean so it sounds like this thing laughs what three minutes the whole argument you know from the point in time when we come inside the house yeah yeah I'd say it probably lasted 15 minutes 15s so a lot more we said there's quite a few thousand four yeah mostly by me I was below the allergy major yes right so you're like you're giving him chapter and verse yeah cetera and and then he's he's defending his his new beloved church and that's that and then he gets up and leaves okay alright so keep explaining to me so now keep talking to me about what what happens then my mom changes this oh no my mom said well let's just stop before anybody gets hurt and I at this point I am covered in tears yeah I am drowning in tears sobbing and my mother has just said before somebody gets hurt right so I'm invisible as I always feel mm-hmm so she isn't acknowledged that that I was at all that my feelings mattered at all really Mill Road so she changes the subject starts serving dinner and and my husband and I start eating dinner at the table with my mom my sister and my dad are still in the living room and I still have tears streaming down I'm eating in silence trying to get out of there yeah I don't know why I think I even offered to that we could move to a hotel that night okay my mom said oh no that's fine no no right okay all right so so it's interesting so now so now let's look at let's let's move the camera forward a little bit so what where are we half an hour from now or an hour from now what other discussions do you ever have with your dad you know in this weekend etc what happens no other discussions about it period all right everybody goes to bed I believe I was devastated in my room telling my husband I don't know what I'm gonna do this is awful he said oh they're all just crazy you know don't worry about it aren't you glad you're aren't you glad you're truthful to yourself what are you going to do be someone you're not you know that sort of conversation right let me back up for a minute so this this is taking place what the day before Easter yeah the night okay after the night before Easter so you and your husband then so basically your dad doesn't make any big threats he just says you know he's disgusted I II shouldn't waste the money on you in college goes and watches football okay your sister follows the money over to the couch petting the bed okay your mom sticks her head in the sand like Switzerland says I don't see anything wrong with this this is all fine and and and your Europe set but I'm actually I'm slightly confused about why this is such a devastating process because your dad's made no big threats he just he just disagrees with you and he he he thinks that you are you know he feels threatened in and insulted that you have never rejected this religion and and so then everybody goes to bed and then tell me what happens the next day the next day my husband and I got ready to go for a walk just the we promised yeah we followed through my family got ready to go to church I said we'll meet you at my aunt and uncle's house we'll bring the pumpkin pies with us mm-hmm and we we did just that we met them at my aunt and uncle's house my dad gave me the cold shoulder when he went and said how's your Easter no and I said it's good how's your Easter mm-hmm and he was very chilly to me all that day yeah um we went to another ant house after that my husband I did to pick up some of my dad's childhood paperwork that she had that she wanted to give him yeah we came home after getting that and my mom accused me of going to a movie she said where have you been I said we were at aunt my aunt Pat's house getting the paperwork for dad she said I don't believe you you went to a movie or something I said I was just left aunt Pat's house you can call her mm-hmm so they were chatting about us while we were gone very chilly when we got go home okay gave my dad some paperwork which included his sixth grade report cards if you can believe it a lot of childhood things and he had very poor grades as a child and started ripping up his report cards interesting okay yeah all right I thought that was telling right sure um that's how the evening ended goodnight love you in the morning we'll drive you to the airport okay throw us to the airport hug love you see you soon and I thought okay we meet we survived that we're fine yeah but every phone call thereafter was why did you do that you dropped a bomb on the family how could you do this it was just getting where's your mother my mother and father and father oh okay yeah so they're both how could you the bomb on the family being what that you are rejecting Catholicism or that you made Easter unpleasant or what are they what are they complaining about I don't know what they were inferring because not like I didn't announce atheism I just did not want to go to church on that day I was being very careful about what I said cuz it right personal keep keep it plain to me you know what let's this is important though what do we think they were saying by this how could you do that how yours you know you did something so outrageous what is our inference about what it is that you did that's so outrageous what do we think that they're trying to say but that you're leaving the tribe they're bailing out yeah how could you leave the tribe yeah I think I mean that's that's what it sounds like to me and it's also possible do you any sense that that they were that either one of them or your dad was embarrassed that you would take that direction I don't know I mean no one knew I right I understand no when I got in the direction yeah I'm trying to figure it out when it whenever I mean this to me so far all I hear is I think all I hear I'm just trying to walk around this is that hey you know you go to visit your dad you've been there a bunch of times knowing he's going down you happen to go on Easter unfortunately okay just so happens that you did I mean it was Easter Sunday so it sort of made it made sense to go for whatever reason you go there and you decide to to rather than go into church and bow your head or whatever you just decide to say hey you know what I'm not going to do it this time around and that's that now no big deal not trying to make a big deal out of particularly your dad gives you some shit about it and you defend yourself okay which it is is interesting okay it shows you got you've got some backbone you're probably also feeling like you got you know an attorney marine that you're married to now that actually in some ways took you down this path so in some ways this is a fork in the road for you actually yeah okay yeah it really is a moment where like this is the moment that you left your your dad's flock and you join your husband okay so the wedding day you do it but today who paid for the wedding you know I'm saying yeah and so this is really when this goes down is it goes down on this Easter the day before Easter and you know it's symbolic it's like it's Easter for goodness sakes if there's one time you know Easter Easter Sunday is the biggest holiday in Catholicism the most you know profound holy thing that there is it's the most solemn thing I mean that Christmas but I mean Easter is huge and so here you are basically you know what not going to choke it down I could I could go and choke it down but you know what really wouldn't doesn't feel good terms of my integrity not going to do it okay your dad reads this in Braille he can see exactly what's going on and and so he pushes you a little bit and guess what you don't roll over you defend yourself right and so it gets a little heated and he's like what's the husband say you're like well I'll tell you I'll go get him yeah I e no problem mm-hmm well we'll take you one right right and so this he really isn't in a position to argue with you very well he can he can you know he's offended he is being left behind he's also going to die and and essentially you are you are you are waving goodbye and basically say and you know what you're not dying with me under your thumb in any fashion okay I'm an independent entity still care about you Here I am but I am NOT going to pretend this is how it is and the narcissist can't can't can't go easily wouldn't go easily for a lot of people by the way so it isn't a bet but for a narcissist this is particularly disturbing so this is this is this is hard on on the old guy and he is all to a sit-up and he is he is very angry but it's interesting that he has to keep his mouth shut and just be cold because you're somebody with a 6-figure type capability and you're married to somebody with six-figure capability that is bigger and stronger and younger and tougher and more stable and smart and basically you have no use for him okay so he he actually all he can do is be quiet and shitty and cold that's all I can do is in he's trying to signal his immense disgust and anger but he you know you've been very unfair as far as he's concerned you know you should be bowing down to him and so it's this is hard and you're like now I don't bow my head I'm not bowing my head to you and I'm not bowing my head to anybody okay and that's tough on a narcissist and if that narcissist you know believe me if he was in charge of your life right then he might have killed you Wow yeah okay if it was if it was King Kamehameha or whatever it is and some kid is did something like that hey off with your head yeah okay so you know that that's that's how that goes so anyway he can't do that wasn't thinking of it and the and now you you see your mom the kind of ostrich the only way that she you know lives through life with this guy is to get on his side and stick her head at the sand okay so that's how that goes down your sisters following the money around you know like like a good little good little child with the umbilical cord still stuck in and and so that's that's how back alright so at the end of this you know now what I would be curious about is now that I understand it is what are you what are you ruminating about kind of what what thoughts come over and over and what do we what's making you uncomfortable how can I describe it eight yeah the current state of affairs is that I've had many conversations with my mom over the phone trying to understand why this has gone on so long this it's turned into an estrangement um and you know me saying this is crazy our family we need to bring our family back together it everybody I understand you're mad at me I'm not sure why you're still mad at me for not going to church on Easter wasn't reasonable when she tried well I agree she would agree and say you're right we need to bring the family together yeah and then she'll hang up the phone and go tell my siblings that I chewed her out and made her cry all right hold on this is very interesting so so this is very interesting so your mom yeah so I don't think that I'm and I'm not sure Kathy how to I don't have the whole picture of what's going on in your head and we have limited time here but it seems to me that that the ruminating has more to do with the current relationships and yeah the the puzzlement of what's going on probably more with your mother than anything else yes yeah yeah your dad's gone okay mate your what happened is that that you're within a declaration of war and the essentially of who who's in charge you basically said you're not in charge of me if your dad's not in charge of you your siblings sure as hell aren't and essentially what you're saying is I'm above you people okay I've considered your position I'm smarter than you are I'm better connected than you are my husband's smarter than you people we are stronger more competent younger and we don't need you and I am rejecting the faith of the coalition and I'm be I'll be perfectly Pleasant about it but I'm just letting you all know you're wrong okay now your mom you know this the specter of her dead husband is still exists you cast a big shadow over who's right and who's wrong and and your siblings so your brother that lined up with everybody oh yeah Keith oh yeah he followed my dad's career path yeah all right he doesn't argue at a time oh god sakes he's a dentist he's a dentist okay and what's your sister did she's a PA she's a PA okay mm-hmm all right so these people have now they all live close to each other they've got kids they're all Catholics and they formed a little coalition Yeah right and those two children does your did your dad leave any significant estate yes all to my mom got it okay so your mom has in if your mom has a significant estate yeah yeah okay well if you want an answer to the question about why this looks the way it is follow the money so your siblings are Believe It or Not financially motivated yeah and your sister really doesn't want you around anyway because you're better looking than she is so she just too soon not have you they're taking the shine out of her she married she didn't invite me to her wedding yeah she denied those are ABS the only reward the the of course she doesn't want you there as a maid of honor or some damn thing taking the shine out of her at her wedding well no way okay and so they're not not going to choke it down so your sister finally has the opportunity to kick you out yeah so this is this is the real Lulu in the group all right your mom's just mr. Magoo and anxious and wants to be accepted and included and you know be safe all right your sister is a and and basically took this as an opportunity to excommunicate you if we can you said sure yeah she that it basically this is what happened all right and as I look at the whole thing the only the sad little thing the person who really loses here your brother doesn't lose anything he's himself okay your sister is fine she's glad you just said you died in a car accident all right and all memories of you B burn - it's your mother who loses okay your mother is the person that's losing and yeah we're your mother and we're you and your mother ever close in any way or just sort of that there must have been a time when it dawned on you that she was pathetic and but you would this is that I mean this must have happened by the time you were 16 I I held her up on a pedestal probably until I was in my 20s I don't notice that she was pathetic right okay so you didn't realize this is a woman living you know under intimidation yeah sounds like she's got a lot stability that she could like you know deal with your dad's anger not freak out accommodate him etc and so you know this this looks like in some ways it's a remarkable specimen but this is how Switzerland survives okay is by not which way the winds blowing and making sure that none of the ash comes in your in your territory so your your mother is now outnumbered in her own tribe and so the the other two particularly your sister who is vocal and forceful will not let you back inside the guano ring yeah your mother can't let you in okay Wow so she so she is she's yeah it probably it hurts her because she knows that you're a fine human being and that you feel affection towards her and you are a potential source of support for her okay she don't seem to act like she's all that interested in me though or my life or my kid yeah well you know what she's got her hands full mm-hmm so she's she's you know she's not that this is a this is a necessary sacrifice so with with she's able to do this she sacrificed a lot of friendships her own interests and impulses she sacrificed a lot behind the force of a real head your father okay yeah so as a result she's got another one but your sister is strong she's not incompetent she's a PA and she's she's she rules the roost emotionally there and that's that okay yeah so that's it your mom can't let you back in and your mom really you know doesn't have the chops to reconfigure this thing and it kind of can't be done so I think as you go forward and you kind of look at these dynamics and you said see where it's all at your sister bolt bull fortune hunting and status hunting is now the daughter okay and so all resources become directed towards her and her children and she can have a perfectly pleasant situation with your brother as long as it means cutting one third of the siblings and the most threatening sibling in terms of status out of her orbit okay Wow yeah that's that's really what's going down in the situation so hey kind of too bad it's kind of too bad for your mom because her if this were not if this were not true then your mom could have a little richer life and you could have a little more you'd have a bit connection to your mother such as she is but the truth of the matter is is that it's these are these are the problems and it's like you know if only Hitler was a little more reasonable okay then we wouldn't have had this problem all right well yeah if only your father wasn't who he was and only your sister didn't inherit enough of those genes and she wasn't who she was then we could have had a much better situation yeah we could have the the you hearken back to the night before Easter because it was an interesting turning point and so it reverberates through your mind because you knew some important it was like the tectonic plates were moving right then okay but this was this was decided a long time ago he was decided if my sisters it was decided in your sisters genetics and your mom's genetics and so when this all went down this was more or less how this was going to wind up okay okay does that make sense yeah that's helpful so do I do I even bother to try to keep in touch or do I go on my merry way no I think what you do is you everyone once in a while you call up your mom and you just tell her you love her you know I'm saying and you just tell her things are going well things going swell I sure hope you're doing well mom and hope everybody's doing their is fine and love you to death and bye okay okay just keep this is what I call Chinese water torture and that is there we just keep dropping positive stuff on top of your mom over and over we just like we're like a mama cat that just keeps licking her head okay okay lick her head a little bit and look at a little more look at a little more looking a little more looking a little more and we no matter how how we don't try to process with anything with her settle it that's all impossible all we look on is we want her to feel that you know what her status is quite safe with you okay that you have some kind of understanding and peace with where she's at and you just express that you care about her okay okay that that's what that little lady needs to know and she can't give you very much back because it's it's at war you know it's it's counter to to the Alpha of her coalition okay okay got it thank you ID very good thank you for calling that was a good one and I appreciate you calling live and and letting everybody have a listen in on this very interesting and complicated problem very very what you're a beautiful reporter of the dynamics and I think this is going to maybe be do a lot of good for a lot of people I sure hope so you bet thank you that wife Kathy thanks for calling Kathy thank you very much very much for the phone call and willingness to share the details we've got about three callers on hold but you have to try again I think we're gonna have a good night we the colors really appreciate it and we're gonna have to end the show today but if you can call back next week we'll get you as soon as possible dr. Lyle thank you very much as always love it love it love it all right my pleasure I'll talk to y'all soon
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