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Chef AJ: Chef AJ Live! | Interview with Dr Jen Howk
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and got some questions because I did announce that you were no good and it's not gonna be corona but it's gonna be helpful you'll see there's questions about how Corona is affecting them their care about how it affects you right of course I'm it's kind of amazing how that's happening so yes well you know humans gonna human but I think we are live I just always thought it always takes a second with this technology for me to actually see the people or I don't actually see them but oh I know they're there so ladies and gentlemen we have a treat today we have the goddess of evolutionary psychology in the house like John I like that title yes with that where's my t-shirt and my bling and my accoutrements I feel like I need I need a full uniform to go with that title you know and I just designs t-shirts Oh Oh No I've summoned something so funny and you may know her as the co-star of the wonderful Peter James podcast which airs every Wednesday night live on blog talk radio there are over 200 episodes now and if you want to know about the coronavirus they talked about it last show so listen to that because we're not gonna just talk to be talking Korona today but we are going to be talking about how corona is affecting some of your progress and that's really why I wanted dr. Jenn hot to talk about this so first of all welcome it's just so I love talking to you you are just the funnest person of oh that's inspiring and drinks and me if you didn't see her on the truth about weight loss summit she's lost almost a hundred pounds and she struggled with some of the same things that all of us have struggled with but I have her here today as a psychologist because dr. Hawk what I'm hearing from the people in the class as I teach is that because we have to the sheltering in place people are there routines are being disrupted yeah being they can't go to the gym because the gym is closed they can't do their work it and so they're worried that they're either going to regain weight that they've lost or not be able to lose weight because they can't get their organic kale and they're afraid to eat starches and now they're sitting home snacking so I want to know your opinion on how do we help these people calm down that this too shall pass and then we can't use this as an excuse to put weight I mean anything now you've got time to maybe develop some habits oh yeah yeah yeah well it is always great to be here and I have gotten a lot of questions about this and I mean it makes sense because essentially what what happens and and for people who are unfamiliar with me or with dr. Lisle we we take an evolutionary psychology approach to the world and so what that means is that we're really grounding psychological questions in a paradigm of humans as animals just like any other animal so you know there's there's we've adapted to solve certain problems in our ancestral history we've developed fingers and opposable thumbs and belly buttons and ears and eyeballs on the front of our face and all of these things that made us more skillful and adapted to the environment that we found ourselves in and it turns out that the human brain is exactly the same way and and so are things like our hunger Drive and so are things like the way that we try to solve problems around our hunger Drive and its interaction with our environment at any given time and so you know I've talked before with you and elsewhere about the idea of emotional eating a lot of people kind of look at a situation like this very disruptive little moment and say oh what's making me emotionally eat because I'm afraid and I'm having anxiety and I'm trying to soothe my system because when I felt this way when I was a child you know my mom would give me she'd go get a pizza from we had a place in the town that I grew up and in the middle of Alaska called starvin Marvin anyone is from Wasilla Alaska we we were big fans of starvin Marvin starvin Marvin is also had a really great arcade but I digress you know that was their sort of lake that was our ocean has hit the fan food we'd go get like two giant pizzas from starvin Marvin and bring it home and and that was like the comfort food and so for many years I also thought oh well I go to replicate this experience when I'm feeling agitated by circumstances in the world it makes perfect intuitive sense that that's what would be going on that's not quite what's going on what's going on is that you're an animal who's trying to solve a survival problem your whole whole human existence just like any other animal in in on planet earth and in the universe exist to get its genes into the next generation you exist to survive long enough so you can reproduce that's the entire game and so everything that you're doing any kind of motivation that you have any desire to do anything or to not do anything it's being driven and constrained by that goal so you don't want to waste time and energy unless it's going to be the most efficient way to survive and/or reproduce and and we when we get into a situation where everything's disrupted and we don't know what's going on and it's very uncertain and we don't know what kind of food's coming in and and what's gonna happen tomorrow and if we're gonna have our job or if our husband's gonna have his job or any of this kind of stuff it's not that the stress is making us emotionally eat it's that the stress is dialing up the urgency of solving the survival problem so so you become increasingly sensitized to okay what is the most guaranteed way to guarantee my success as an organism that needs to survive and reproduce like what are the things that I know will will benefit that well sex and food are the things that are most beneficial to survival and reproduction turns out and if you if you have food available to you that is richer in calories relative to other food that is available to you the correct thing to do from an evolutionary perspective is to go for the richer food this is just what we do this is what the pleasure trap is why we talk about the pleasure trap all the time you were absolutely hardwired in your adaptive history by evolution to all things equal go for the rich or food get the most calories per bite particularly when you are in a situation of stress and uncertainty and you don't know where the next meal is coming from so all of those things are are really amplifying our desire to get a sure thing evolutionarily speaking and that sure thing probably looks like a frozen vegan pizza from Whole Foods instead of like assembling whatever mix of dry goods you have in your cabinet along with some old freezer burned vegetables into some kind of soup which is what I did yesterday except I'm moving soon and I'm trying to use up all of my old stuff anyway but I like everybody else I'm feeling that sort of call like oh crap [ __ ] has hit the fan we don't know what's happening it's time to eat really calorie rich food so of course that's happening it's not your fault it doesn't make you a weak person you're not emotionally eating you were just an animal trying to solve a survival problem it's all it is so within that everybody has kind of a different relationship to the situation so AJ you're saying you know don't don't let this be an excuse to gain weight this is a great opportunity to really buckle down and and like you know tighten the screws and make some progress that is going to be true for some people but this is where personality is so important so we talked on the podcast all the time about personality which is very genetic just like your eye color and your propensity to put on weight and whether you prefer cats or dogs that's all genetic we can talk about that more if people want but this is what the science is telling us increasingly so as we replicate these studies more and more we have 15 million of these identical twin studies that are really narrowing in on the genetic origins of personality and all of these things so if you if you have a personality that is sort of going to greet a situation of adversity like this with a with a rallying motivational sort of this is a great opportunity to kick some ass and to really make some make some progress on my goals then god bless you that is a beautiful opportunity and and people some people are going to respond to the situation like that and it is a great opportunity to do those things other people do not have that kind of personality they're less emotionally stable there may be a little less open to experience they whatever whatever sort of cocktail of personality characteristics they have they're just gonna get a little more afraid they're gonna dial it in a little more they're anxiety about their survival problem is a little more intense and they're going to slip a little bit and they're they may regain some weight and they may lose some of their progress but this is where we don't want to catastrophize because of that so you know you used my favorite phrase this too shall pass I've had that on a little plaque that lives in my house ever since my old some people know that I used to be like a hardcore Buddhist and went on retreats all the time and got really involved in a particular Buddhist lineage and that was like my mantra this too shall pass no matter how exhilarating and grand and wonderful it is it's gonna pass and no matter how crappy and awful and terrible it is that too will pass so everything is is a wave its clouds passing through the sky it all shifts you you are here no matter what so so greeting this moment as a really uncomfortable moment that may sort of misdirect your motivational process in the short term and lead you into some high density high calorie food maybe you're gonna gain a little weight this is no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater and completely give up on your goals but it may be cause for you to be a little bit kind to yourself and have some compassion for the fact that you're an animal who is scared and going through a really difficult process and you don't know where this is going yet and in a couple of weeks we'll have a lot more information will be a lot on much firmer ground with all of this and you'll be able your motivational process regarding your health goals it's gonna move in concert with your informational matrix of what's happening in the world so as you become more certain about where things are going you naturally your motivation to to prioritize your health will will come back if it's gone in the moment so if it's gone in the moment you know that's okay that's okay try to do your best you're gonna feel a lot better about things if you do eat well so you know it's it you feels like you self-medicate with a bunch of trashy food ultimately that's just really going to corrode your your ability to kind of be present and stay in the moment and be resilient to all of this because you're not going to be sleeping very well you're gonna feel crappy and no great crime but it does you know that there's there's some greater good in being as healthy as you can taking as good a care of yourself and your immune system by the way as you can which which healthy food is a big part of supporting your immune system getting really good sleep getting some sunshine every day these are the most important things that you can be doing for yourself right now regardless of of how much turbulence you're having with regard to your specific goals that's great that is very reassuring how can we articulate to people that relapse is not fatal like a couple of these questions that came in apparently I don't I don't really follow anybody I don't have time but there's people in the plant-based world that maybe have lost weight or they have a channel and they've lost a lot we may have publicly gained it back and now people are scared that they're gonna lose because so-and-so gained weight well that's gonna happen to me too and I'm scared at you always has have said that relapse is part of the recovery of recovery yeah with food for some people it really seems like okay this is it I ate a cookie and now it's gonna be ten years till I eat a carrot again how can ya help people get back on track a little bit quicker ya know it's really great and is speaking to again these sort of like deep ancestral processes that we've adapted to to really just throw over the table and and go back into the rich food so yeah that phrase relapse is part of recovery that's something that I got from my experience with 12-step because I'm sober from alcohol going on seven years and that's one of the one of them you know wise chestnuts that you'll hear in the rooms that a a and what it means what it's really I was always sort of confused by that phrase like what the hell does that mean was relapse is part of recovery but what it's speaking to is that you're as you're trying to change your behavior around something behavior only changes in in any given human because of a changed cost-benefit analysis this goes back to what we were talking about a minute ago so everything is the result of a cost-benefit analysis you are not going to do something unless your brain looks at that problem and says the the cost of taking an action is is you know lower than the perceived benefit that I'm going to get so there's a cost associated with eating healthfully because you're giving up the tasty food and the trashy food that you could otherwise be eating it takes a little more effort you have to learn how to cook you have to go to some trouble to make this happen that requires time and energy you're only going to invest that time and energy if you're perceiving a pretty good benefit on the other side of the equation that's where motivation comes from motivation is the result of a good cost-benefit analysis and so a cost-benefit analysis changes as you change information so my cost-benefit analysis regarding eating healthy food is probably going to be different all things equal if I am facing some serious health situation versus if I'm not so if I'm a relatively healthy way and I've got no problems with my health it's like how much trouble am I really going to go to to dial they tighten the screws on this diet and a super healthy diet probably not that much but if I'm facing some major autoimmune condition or I have heart disease pathology or there's something that's really motivating me to to I'm looking at the future and saying hey if I change my behavior even though it's kind of kind of suck and it's not gonna be very comfortable I'm estimating a pretty big payoff at the end of that so let's maybe think about changing that behavior that's where behavioral change actually comes from so with relapse is part of recovery the idea is that you want to you want to try to change your habits so with me with alcohol I'm like I got to stop drinking this has become a problem turning into my alcoholic father I don't want this to happen so I'm gonna quit okay so yeah I'm gonna quit because I'm perceiving that there's a benefit to stopping drinking alcohol that is higher than the cost of giving it up which is significant cost of giving it up is social social costs interpersonal cost like it's it's an addiction right and so you get into it and then you start doubting yourself and you start thinking well maybe that perceived benefits not that great because this cost is a little higher than I thought it was gonna be and so how about I have another drink and relapse so then you relapse and then you experience the cost of relapse and the cost of relapse is a lot higher than you were estimating that to be so you relapse it's miserable you find that you're out of control and it's like okay wait I've got to recalculate the whole spreadsheet because my cost benefit analysis was off I wasn't accounting for the fact that the continuing to drink is actually a lot more costly than I thought it was so tick tick tick tick tick update update update the the cost benefit analysis updates and changes and therefore the behavior changes and I become less likely to relapse the next time so every time I relapse that spreadsheet gets updated in the same sort of way the cost of relapse is increasingly high and at some point it's so high like I think about relapse II now and I remember the withdrawal I remember how difficult it was to claw my way back out of that once I got sucked back in and like I'm never doing it again it was too freaking painful that cost is way higher than the cost whatever costs I pay for not being able to go to the bar with my friends and have an easy conversation on a date and you know see all the all the sort of social benefits that come with so that's what it is and the same thing happens with food where if you if you're eating a very healthy diet and you slip off the rails because you're you get out of your groove and circumstances change or you walk past a Cinnabon or whatever it is that sort of pulls you back in with the pleasure trap every time you do that you're updating the informational matrix that informs your cost-benefit analysis that that's probably not that worth it because you think it's worth it but that's a that's an illusion you you were incorrect with your estimate of the potential benefit and you were incorrect with the with the estimate of the potential cost so the only way to improve those estimates is to experience it and you wake up after the you know you fell facedown in a platter of vegan nachos and you're salty and you're bloated and you feel like crap and you hate yourself and you just you spend a bunch of money and everything sucks you're like oh okay well this is terrible let's not do it again and of course the pleasure trap interacts with that pulls people back into the addictive process for some amount of time but this is all you have to learn you have to update your information to update the cost/benefit which is what changes behavior behavior can't change otherwise that's really interesting I haven't met the person yet that was like ever said the relapse oh god that was really worth it yeah right like oh boy that was sure fun and I'd do that again like no it was always always a source of regret and we like alcohol similar to cigarettes and and obviously with food most people who are trying to quit an addictive substance it takes several serious efforts before it finally takes like I didn't get sober permanently until probably my fourth or fifth really serious like okay all hands on deck we're gonna do this kind of attempt so I get like two months in three months and four months in and I'd slip and so it takes it takes some time it takes some iteration and with food because it's less it's just the costs are lower overall because you're not dealing with such a super normal stimulus it is super normal in many ways that it's not it's not hijacking the endorphin pathways in the same way it's not it's not quite the same psychoactive property is some of the things that we'll get ourselves addicted to it's a lower level process and so you're going to have our little slips and little relapses and the cost is relative to the cost of relapse tea non alcohol is is lower so you're more likely to do it more often but it's fine it's it's it's like this is a marathon not a sprint you know you're not nobody expects you to be perfect depending on your personality attributes it's it's probably unlikely if not impossible that you are gonna be perfect I am certainly not perfect I'm extremely imperfect it doesn't stop you from losing weight it just slows you down so if the difference if you need to lose 50 pounds and and perfection would have you losing that 50 pounds in the next 12 months and a b-plus job is 14 months instead of 12 months who cares it took a little bit longer you slipped a couple of times you had some Cinnabon and you had some vegan pizza whatever your drug of choice is you got back in the process and you did the best you could on an ongoing basis and that's what you need to do to both be successful long term and to stoke the process of self-esteem that it's gonna have the inherent motivation to keep you going which is really the key to everything this is great did you ever a fan of Seinfeld did you watch so god yes I'm filled this time filled with evolutionary psychology before evolutionary psychology was cool like those guys understood human nature very deeply that's cool because I actually just met him he my friend is a friend of his wonderful episode with Jamie he was Jami Gertz where she didn't have a spare and a square of the toilet paper huh I remember yeah yeah see what's going on now and she I'm watching live actually said what is going on why are people hoarding toilet paper well yes they're hoarding everything because they are in a feedback process where humans are humans are much more sensitized to scarcity than we are to abundance so well what killed most of our ancestors in the Stone Age was some form of scarcity particularly food scarcity this is why part of why we adapted in such a way that that we if we see rich food in the environment are very strong evolutionary inclination is to slurp it up before anybody else gets it because we don't know where our next meal is coming from and that that was the deadliest thing to our ancestors all things equal with starvation's we're extremely sensitized to scarcity and this is part of why programs that peddle something that taps into our scarcity fear are very successful so things with like super foods nutritional you know very very special little nutritional amounts of things that you need to defeat scary things like cancer these are things that are tapping into those scarcity algorithms so humans are very we're just we're freaked out about scarcity in general and then we have these social dynamics where you go to the store and I I saw this in myself I went to the store to get oatmeal which is one of my staples like I ate a lot I get a lot of oatmeal and there were there are three containers of oatmeal left on that shelf and and it's like I know rationally that the supply chains are absolutely in place and that the oatmeal is going to continue to get to Safeway this is not a catastrophe but my little stone-age brain sees those three eggs like oh my god there's only three left I better get them so this is why there are runs on banks you know like this is how the this is how the Depression happened it's like people you know as people take their money out of the bank because they get scared it's like oh well they're taking their money I better take my money because now my money is I gotta go with it so this it's like a it's a feedback process once it begins it's very difficult to arrest that process because people go and they see that there's not much to go around and particularly if they have children they're like they have to protect their their genes are walking around I got a defendant and it's very it's very difficult just like it's very difficult to override your susceptibility to the pleasure trap very difficult to override your susceptibility to want to sort of protect number one in the face of what looks like a pretty serious disaster scarcity you want to sort of you know circle the wagons and protect you and yours and wrap a bunch of toilet paper around everybody to bad guys at bay and so it's it's absolutely until until people get calmed down enough and start to see that okay the supply chains are working you know the truck drivers are still like bringing new deliveries you don't need to hoard but that's gonna take a lot of time so to calm down that is something you're from Wasilla is that where you grew up with pesalam i'm from Wasilla and me and sarah palin yep so funny because I that is one place I've actually spoken they're both Midwest Silla there apparently is a vegetarian society there and I spoke in Wasilla was very nice there was no vegetarian Society when I last lived there but I left them there over 20 years ago there was at least 100 people there in Wasilla so oh well good for them yeah yeah what still is a funny little place it's a little like a little bird about 50 miles from Anchorage so very beautiful a little location but kind of a glorified strip mall in a lot of ways so yeah my I'm from Wasilla my brother as some people know is in a band called Portugal the man they're all from Wasilla so we've been trying to put poor little Wasilla on the map and along with along with Sarah Palin who I've known for many many years she was she worked for the same newspaper that my mother was editor of way back in the day so I first met Sarah back in like 1988 yeah so two Jan says but why toilet paper Perseids because when we freaked out we are concerned about elimination I don't think there is any good answer for that I don't I don't think there I don't think there's a uniform answer for that I think toilet paper is one of those things that people I you know I've watched people wheel pallets of bottled water out of the store as well and I think initially when the first reports of this thing we're coming out and saying you know prepare for potentially sheltering in place for a couple of weeks people were we're translating that through their sort of grid down scenario worst-case scenario planning ie there's a big natural disaster we don't have running water we don't have electricity get the fundamentals of life to sort of keep you going and toilet paper makes that list for most people so you've got people very conscientious people going to the store in that early way of affording and they're getting things like bottled water or toilet paper you know disposable plates all these kinds of things which become the first things to disappear and then that initiates the panic and then you know the the second wave of the slightly less conscientious people who make it to the store in the second wave they're like oh no we're out of toilet paper there's there's actually a problem like we better hoard everything and so then then you get you get the current situation so yeah yeah so Donna says gee I feel like she is giving me permission to relapse yeah uh-huh well that seems like a transference of responsibility I mean at the end of the day it's you and your food right it's you and your choices and your personality and your food and only you can can run that motivational process and make that decision for yourself like nobody ever gave me permission to relapse and alcohol I found ways to justify it to myself I am I'm not giving you permission but I'm not telling you it's the end of the world that you do it you know I'm not being moralistic about it at all I'm saying that humans you know I'm always using the example of my dogs because I live with these two big ridiculous dogs and if I left those dogs alone with a bunch of canned food sitting out on the floor and I left the house and I said now don't get into that because you're on a diet and you need to be you know doing doing a good job and taking care of yourself and staying healthy and go eat the Kimbell instead I leave for five minutes and I come back and they're going to eaten all of the canned food and anything else that they can get into we are exactly the same we've got a few more cc's of brain up there that allow us to kind of like estimate into the future and run a slightly more complex motivational process just like the dog well like the dog has a little bit of dissonance like how much trouble am I going to get into for doing this like what's the cost versus the benefit benefits pretty high gonna do it and so we are just the same way so it takes a very unusual personality and a very unusual set of motivational circumstances to defeat the pleasure trap on a good day and so given the fact that things are very disrupted right now again in a very temporary sort of way you know dr. Lyle and I have talked a great deal on the podcast last week we talked again this week we pre-recorded this week so we've already done done the show but we run through the data again and really sort of drive home the the notion of where where the data is triangulating that it's not it's not this big big indiscriminate terrifying thing that we it has like some 5 or 10% death rate that's not what it is and as this becomes more clear that it's really something akin to a really nasty flu that's gonna provide but it's gonna present a very significant burden on our health systems and our institutions but nonetheless one that we I believe are resilient to in the end it's just when we haven't gone through before as that becomes more clear the panic that the overall uncertainty and the the existential panic and the in the social hysteria are going to get dialed down so this is a temporary moment it's not that it I'm giving you permission to relapse I'm giving you the context of if you do relapse you know this is not cause for you to go full scale into the ego trap and completely throw over the table against the goals that you have for yourself just to understand that this is likely part of the process for most people well I look at it that we all of us teach to have a clean environment and if you had a clean environment what are you gonna relapse on I mean right right you know you know right I mean I I live probably a quarter of a mile from a Whole Foods which is a dangerous place to live and so I've been just like everybody else I you know I had a friend who as last week saying that you know he's hearing rumors that there that martial law is gonna be declared and that this is gonna get real gnarly and it's like a little bill goes off in your head looks like well I better get it while the getting's good you know I better go get all of my favorite things all of my favorite relapse foods because who knows what the future holds this is the way that the machine works and and I can I can run that through my own motivational matrix and be like it's not a good idea again an a a they call that play the tape all the way through so before you go to the bar and have a drink okay so yeah that'll be nice that'll feel really good you'll get a nice little dopamine surge you can flirt with somebody it'll all be fine you'll have a nice night but then what then what happens how do you feel about yourself in the morning how given your past experiences and relapse as part of recovery don't you think that maybe that's gonna put you back down the rabbit hole in a way that you don't necessarily want to put yourself in that position where you have to claw your way back out at great personal suffering to do so and maybe not make it this time like the last time I got sober I barely got sober it was it was marginal and so obviously again food the stakes are not as high but it's it's like okay before I go to Whole Foods like let's just think about this for a second like what am i what am I trying to do what about what problem am I trying to solve what is my little animal stone-age brain trying to what is it panicking about how can I have a little bit of mindfulness and discernment about that process and and calm myself so again my meditative experience and past will often come into play here where it's like okay well if it's that urgent to get the crappy food over at the store it can it can wait half an hour so you know in the next half an hour I'm gonna go eat half a pound of steamed potatoes that I have in the fridge I'm gonna have something that I can use to kind of like subdue the system and run a different CB in half an hour or an hour so not taking any sort of scarcity-driven urgent action is the first line of defense against that kind of thing and almost always that's that alone is enough to quiet it down and your your rationality magically comes back online when you check back in with it that's terrific thank you so we have a question live from Jessica it's very similar to one that's been sent in so I'll read them both so Jessica says I'd love to hear dr. Hawks perspective on food addiction I'm struggling with this and then I have a question is a little bit more in-depth but similar because you'll have to talk about how you feel about food addiction to answer this one from Stephanie which is recently I started seeing a therapist for food addiction I was so discouraged when she said that at some point I will be able to reintroduce the addictive foods back into my diet as soon as she said that I thought she must not be familiar with food addiction she wants to treat what triggers me to eat what are your thoughts on continuing continuing treatment with this therapist and her approach I find food addiction to be so frustrating because not too many around me understand it I appreciate any insight you can give yeah I'm gonna try to be nice about this from a channel dr. Lyle here would be he'd be very disagreeable and dismissive of this so so that kind of therapist is taking a very typical approach that a lot of therapists and a lot of practitioners will which is that you're you were addicted to foods because of some kind of childhood process some kind of childhood trauma some kind of some kind of former experience in your life that has caused some kind of emotional damage that is compelling you to self-medicate with food that's the paradigm and a lot of different people will they'll take different kinds of approaches sometimes it's you know it's it's unseen childhood experiences sometimes it's the way what you learned about food growing up and what role food played in your household whatever form this takes it's some form of what we call learning theory which is the sort of dominant paradigm of human behavior ie nature over nurture so there was a big nature nurture debate for many many decades you know what what really are humans about are they more shaped by their by their childhood experiences in nature or are they more just kind of who they are genetically ie I might be swapping these up together so are they more who they are ie nature rather than were they nurtured into becoming who they are and we know the answer to this question we know that it is nature we know that it is who you are who you are your genetic predisposition to all of all your propensity to put on and keep on wait the the correlation for obesity among identical twins even if they are raised in radically different in food environments and radically different home environments in general with different levels of discipline and different levels of physical activity and you name it it doesn't matter the correlation is still somewhere between 80 and 90% so they are very likely if you check in with them as adults once they get out of their childhood environment they converge on being pretty much exactly the same level of overweight because the jeans are just powerfully moving them they're as you control for the environment and they and they return to eating the same kind of foods that they are drawn to eating to begin with so all of this is just a very long way of saying that the these therapists who are looking at learning theory and early life experiences as the driving force of food addiction are completely misguided they're absolutely incorrect that is not what is driving food addiction what is driving food addiction is the presence of super normal food in the environment so it is not possible to become addicted to something that would have been present in the Stone Age there was no addiction in the Stone Age there was no addictive eating there was no there was emotional eating in the sense the same sort of sense that if people attacked by some marauding tribe of barbarians and they didn't know you know where their next meal was gonna come from they were still going for the richest food in the environment they were still trying to self-soothe with the dopamine process that comes by eating a lot of potatoes they were self self-medicating in that same kind of sense but you're not gonna you're not gonna reach a significant level of obesity by self-medicating on whole natural food no matter how much you do it some people will there are exceptions to every bell curve rule obviously there are some people who really will stuff themselves with potatoes to the point where they could gain significant weight those people are very very rare dr. Lisle and you know many decades of practice has run into like three of them tops so this is this is a very rare process what's really happening with food addiction is that you're exposed to food that would not have existed in the ancestral environment for one reason or another either because it is processed beyond recognition and so it is some sort of food like product that just absolutely there's nothing resembling it would have existed in the Stone Age or it's some artificially concentrated whole natural food adjacent sort of product like flour like you know it's cereals like any any combination of things that we will put together so there's a range of super normality to food that we will eat that ranges from you know you know the whole natural food being absolutely not super normal being like an apple to something like apple sauce to apple juice to you know just dial it down keep extracting the sugar at all all the way to Apple Apple sugar or dried apple or dried apple mixed with sugar and then you start to mix apple like whole apples into something like an apple pie which is taking even a whole natural food kind of situation and adding fat to the sugar mixing flavors and textures in ways that are behaving as if they're super normal so any anything that looks like a food addiction is is somewhere on the spectrum of a super normal substance you we're not going to develop food addiction to whole natural ancestrally compliant food you just you just or not so if you're returning to some kind of addictive pattern around food it's because you have something that is too super normal for you in your environment and you you just need to it you have that susceptibility you need to tighten those screws more tightly and move down the redline toward the direction of the processing that food even if it seems like it should be compliant and like it's very healthy even if that is just the process of not mixing it with other compliances Wow Thank You Kara or Cara says I just went away I think my personality and CBA is keeping me from reaching my goal weight how can I overcome bat is it even possible um well I need to know a little bit more about what she means so so personality and the cost-benefit analysis that will come from personality can sometimes keep you it will hold you steady just short of your goal a lot of times so it's very reasonable for somebody who is trying to lose a lot of weight to be very successful for some period of time because again remember what the cost-benefit analysis is you're you're estimating the potential payoff of going to all of this trouble to change your behavior so if somebody wants to lose a hundred pounds and they lose 50 of them they they have been estimating that if they lose the hundred pounds they're going to get the kind of feedback from other people that will change their life experience you're going to get more seen from other people so I would call our website esteem dynamics so that's what's gonna be fundamentally motivating for a lot of people they want better romantic feedback they want better feedback from their friends they want better feedback from people at work they want to just be a little higher in status in the stone-age village and they think if they lose the weight then they will get that feedback that they are so desperately craving and what happens is that people will get some some part of the way down that process and like so they lose half of the weight that they want to lose or three-quarters of the way that they want to lose and they look around and they're getting a lot of positive feedback suddenly people are asking them out that never ask them out before they're getting they're getting people at work saying oh my gosh you look really good their friends are jealous what are you doing you look great they're getting all of these esteem signals and so the nervous system says hold up a second like just like the relapse is part of recovery changes the spreadsheet this kind of information can also change in the spreadsheet because it's like wait wait wait wait wait wait we're going to an awful lot of trouble here to get what we're already getting like are we really going to get that much more positive feedback if we lose another 20 pounds it doesn't seem very likely like what we've got is pretty good we basically qualify for the sort of feedback that we've wanted to get to begin with and so all things equal continuing to invest in this difficult and unpleasant process of eating kale instead of Pizza I I don't think it's worth it so therefore we're shutting down this operation where we're ending this whole process right now game over the CB has changed so that everybody is kind of susceptible to that process that's just how the cost-benefit analysis is gonna work interacting with esteemed feedback but obviously there is a there's a spectrum of reaction to other people's feedback that is going to be personality dependent so if you were somebody who is a little more emotionally stable perhaps perhaps a little more a little more agreeable those kinds of things are going to converge and make you much more likely to be satisfied with a certain status quo when you hit it rather than to keep struggling and keep fighting to get down to some specific number or to get more feedback from people when you think with the feedback that you've got is pretty good so personality absolutely can change it's it's personality is what it assigns the pair of goggles that you wear to look at the world so everybody's running the same types of algorithms and the same kinds of analysis but the the colour of the world that they look at is absolutely determined by what their personality is telling them is reality or not and if you have a personality that's a little sort of it doesn't like to compete so much and a lot of people do then you're going to hit some point in your process where it's good enough and your nervous system will say shut down that cost-benefit analysis right she says that she's highly open and agreeable lost 70 to 80 has 20 to 30 to go so yeah the story is all this time so yeah you've gotten you've done a really good job and you've made a lot of good progress and you've probably gotten a lot of really positive feedback and the nature of being agreeable means that you're you're essentially systematically undervaluing yourself and you're taking less than you have coming to you so if you're splitting a piece of pie with somebody you you take 40% you're like no no that's okay you can have the bigger slice it doesn't bother me like it's fine like I'm good with this that's what agreeableness is and so when it translates into an esteem dynamic in an esteem process you lose 70 or 80 pounds and you're getting good positive feedback and you're like you know what this is pretty good like I feel pretty happy with this I don't need more than this the spine like not worth the effort so that's that will definitely Drive that nice Kelly says I just relapsed on my five-year-old Doritos I would ask what the heck are you given a five-year-old torito's for yeah oh that's it the five year was it a five year old Doritos at home or a package of five-year-old Doritos that's what I can't call yeah I think I think I do I think she has a five-year-old that she yeah yeah well yeah five-year-old probably shouldn't I mean it's still in your environment so anything that you're feeding your kids is unless it's in a separate locked cabinet that only your spouse has a key to that needs to be considered as in your environment and even if you you have a lot of willpower and a lot of self-control to stay out of it in normal circumstances you you scramble the the the cost-benefit analysis by imposing a big crisis and uncertainty on top of the world and that nothing is off-limits if it's in your environment so you know I interview a lot of pediatricians and I just don't understand if it's a grownup knows the food is not good for them why are they giving you to their child especially one that young it doesn't drive or have a job yeah yeah I mean it's it's not the end of the world to give a kid Doritos they you know it's it's not ideal obviously I can I can see you know again kind of going to back to the idea that people are a lot of people are stuck at home with kids and spouses that they may not like very much and struggling and just having a hard time keeping it together and they they're doing what they can to kind of like IIE there are no limits on screen time for kids right now like normally you might not want to have your kids sitting with an iPad all day but right now it's like okay let's let's not let's pick our battles wisely so with something like if you're if you're buying a little bit of a little bit of quiet and a little bit of mommy time by giving the kids some junk food it's not it's not the end of the world optimally something that you want to be doing on an ongoing basis least of all because it provides a threat for your health goals so you just if it's if it's in your house it's in your mouth some some Kauai said that so I'm what Laurel posted something that I am hearing a lot now working at home in my clean environment means that I have been binging on healthy food how do I stop eating eating and eating dr. Houk do people misuse the word binging because I actually was bulimic in my 20s and I have never been Jun healthy food ever yeah I don't even overeat on healthy food because it's so filling I can't so number one do people sometimes just really miss miss use that word when they're really not binging and also I mean this idea that people overeat on starch I just don't understand because people that don't have a history of discordant eating or weight I don't see regular people just having a problem eating starch yeah yeah so to some degree it's a it's a misuse of the term in the sense that unless you're really systematically doing what we would call eating into the pain so like really causing yourself great distress to the point where you you would want to vomit or you're extremely uncomfortable you know that it just means that you're eating a little more than usual so eating more than you would feel would be appropriate is generally what the what's going on here so so people will you know even when they're there they're doing the program correctly and they're eating to satiety there's still like a little bit systematically eating under the hunger drive to some degree because you know people can't people can't suppress their knowledge of how much calories are in things and they're they're kind of they've got a little bit of a schedule in there they're watching the number on the scale and they're they're playing the game a little bit and so what happens in this kind of situation is that just like any other animal you're going to be you're you're looking for there is a little bit of a connection to the pleasure pathway of dopamine by just the act of eating and so that is why dopamine exists primarily is to let you know that you're on track with some behavior and that you should keep doing that to continue your genetic survival so dopamine is primarily associated with food and sex it's it's not just associated with supernormal food it's associated with any food so know on some carrot sticks will give you a little bit of dopamine which is a little nice in times of great uncertainty so your desire to kind of just chew on something and and keep you know keep the digestive process going is in some ways you you're seeking just a little dopamine drip and there's there's nothing wrong with that and again with the whole natural food you may see a very temporary increase on the scale because you're topping off your glycogen tank which normally you probably have not had topped off because you've probably been systematically eating just slightly under the hunger Drive and not eating too comfortable satiety every day and so you know you're now shifting that over a little bit and so you're not going to gain weight behind this you're gonna you're gonna maybe hold steady you're maybe gonna hold exactly steady where you are you can maintain equilibrium and on the scale you might gain a couple of weight a couple of pounds because of the water weight of the glycogen it's not a disaster the the the the body is this incredible equilibrium machine and if you were eating whole natural foods it will compensate over the long haul so the amount of calories that you eat on any given day is absolutely irrelevant your weight depends on how many calories you eat this year and and the body is a lot better than you at determining how many calories are in your food you know that nutritional label will tell you one thing but your body knows and if you're eating whole natural food it's not gonna get scrambled like it will was super normal food that's that's the problem with super normal food so if you're needing a whole natural food and you're eating it even to the point of slightly uncomfortable satiety this is fine you're going to hold a slate equilibrium now that is going to naturally adjust you're gonna eat a little bit less than you than you did the day before you won't even notice it because it'll be 20 calories less but this is this is the finely tuned calibration machine that the body is just like every animal in nature is you know there's no animal in nature that's overweight except for humans and the animals that live with humans as dr. Lisle says isn't this just a little tiny bit suspicious like this is this says that there's something about the food environment not the amount of food so my dogs will also you know eat too very comfortable satiety on their whole natural food they really enjoy it but they're not going to gain weight eating because they will you do stop eating at some point even if you're eating you're overeating at some point the system shuts it off and and that is that is letting you know that it's going to compensate on an ongoing way so and you are probably not discerning enough to be able to tell that difference and certainly no calorie counter can do you think that because so many of the people I work with and maybe YouTube come from such a history of restriction very specifically these calorie counting programs are weighing and measuring programs that they don't even know what it did what satiety feels like because they're because when you eat whole natural food full of water and fiber like potatoes rice you do get full you feel full and I think that scares them and they think they're overeating when they're not really overeating because they have been weighing and measuring their food for so long which clearly didn't work yeah so cornering how you feel about those weighing and measuring programs oh I think that's absolutely right that people until they have been doing a search based diet for some amount of time and learn to trust it you know and it does it does take some it takes a process and it takes a feedback process to be able to you really like really start experimenting with eating into something that looked like resemble satiety and and then correlating it with the data on the scale over a fairly long period of time not a day to day kind of correlation because that's gonna be full of noise and and garbage but like eating into satiety and recognizing month to month that your weight is still declining that's a process of again updating the information that changes the cost-benefit analysis and you just over time become more comfortable with actually eating enough food to fuel the Machine and not eating the hunger drive and of course we're all raised with some version of a way measuring program even if that's a point system or you know whatever it is it's it's some kind of measured food restriction so that is what people are absolutely accustomed to and they get that feeling of sort of Thanksgiving dinner and they're ballet from eating a bunch of potatoes and and are not recognizing the the physiological process behind that and that you're absolutely fine and the body is going to self-regulate and compensate for that and and people also get very very spooked because they become they become so suspicious of any movement on the scale so they'll have a big potato dinner and they'll feel that that though I'm so full I couldn't possibly eat another bite and then lo and behold the scale is up the next morning because they're full of this water in this fiber and they haven't gone to the bathroom yet and because they've chopped off that gas tank of glycogen so much so that will move that number up you didn't gain any fat at all you just changed a little equilibrium of what number the scale says and the scale is this bizarre creation that also would never have existed in the Stone Age no-one in the Stone Age is gonna say oh gosh Mary it looks like you you ate a pound of potatoes last night and you you gained a pound and a half of water like you better feel real shitty about yourself today like that's just not a process that happens so what happens in the Stone Age is like wow I ate a lot yesterday so maybe I'm gonna eat a little less today and this is not a conscious process this is the process your hunger hormones beautifully regulate as long as you get out of their way and let them do their job relative to the food that they're designed to recognize as actual food which is not the food that we eat most of the time right maybe for some people though the fact that they're not willing to eat starches and each to speak to satiety is what's causing them to overeat and possibly binge beat again yes the equilibrium machines so so yeah if you've been systematically eating under the hunger drive by wayne and measuring and being afraid of starch and and convincing yourself that oh you know I ate a thousand calories and I'm just fine I'm totally full on that that's all good the you can get away with that for some amount of time especially if you've got a very strong matrix of motivation in your estimating a big ass team payoff relative to stayin on the program and losing some weight but the body is not going to let you get away with this forever and at the at its first opportunity the the first time the barbarians at the gate that are that is the pleasure trap detects any vulnerability in your defenses it's gonna get in and that's gonna be your five-year-olds Doritos it's gonna be it's gonna be walking past your favorite steakhouse it's gonna be whatever calls your name in a moment where your routine has been disrupted and routines are made to be disrupted routines get disrupted all the time so the best defense against a disrupted routine is a belly full of starch which is why I always have boiled potatoes in my fridge for any time that I start to feel the call of something super normal I make a little deal with myself that's like okay you can do whatever you want but you gotta eat a pound of potatoes first and it's like I'm very I can count on one hand the number of times I've continued to be interested in anything super normal after I've filled myself up with boiled potatoes Wow so Kelly right chef AJ that sounded so judgy he's been eating cucumbers and raspberry all day the Doritos was his goodies jeez yeah I don't think you should be giving kids special food as treats and I especially don't feel you should give them stuff with dairy and that's what Doritos are but anyway she can be mad as she wants but let's hashtag disagreeable AJ I'm just realistic I mean I work with so many of them yeah because of their parents giving them Doritos that are struggling today and other people are saying you know child shouldn't be associated with food give them a videogame instead that kind of thing but you know because I see what happens when when you get these kind of treats when you're 5 years old and you struggled at your whole life at least I did but anyway on to the next question from marina she says I was so on track and completely vegan for a few years and then I kept making small allowances until I'm eating sad again it seems harder to get back on track this time why is it harder now mmm yeah well you went up that continuum of super normal food and you you open the door back up to the brain recognizing that this is too good a deal to pass up that there is so much more pleasure there's so much more dopamine associated with those foods that are up the continuum up the addictive continuum so if you can imagine a continuum of like absolute whole natural food plain potato plain apple unprocessed like not even chopped up for your chewing pleasure you gotta gnaw on it off of the tree all the way up to something like heroin so everything is in between that continuum so so everything that we would call addictive that is beyond the whole natural food has just become a little more concentrated than a little more super normal so as soon as you start to open the gate to those things they're hijacking the pleasure pathways and which are designed to be the cues to tell you that you're doing the right thing for your survival and reproduction so these are these are reward systems that are built into the brain to encourage your survival long enough to reproduce which is your entire job and when you hijack them was supernormal stimulus or stimuli you you were you're messing with the whole feedback system of the brain and so it's it's gotten harder to go back to it because you know the the cost benefit analysis has changed to the enormous dopamine benefit associated with these super normal foods and so that's just you you will watch the process go you know recalibrate as soon as you can get yourself out of the death grip of the pleasure trap because whatever you're eating has some kind of super normal hold over you but it's not going to continue to have that kind of super normal hold forever if you can just you know put put it down long enough and get get out of the acute withdrawal process so if I were still craving alcohol at the same level today that I was when I first quit nearly seven years ago I would never stay sober because you'd be white-knuckling it every day craving a drink constantly but these these cravings have what we call an extinction curve as you get further away from it and you don't put the put the substance in your system eventually the nervous system says well I guess it looks like we're not gonna get that like it was great and and we really fought like hell to get it and that's what cravings are is like it was just here like if we work a little harder we're gonna find it we're gonna get it but at some point the system is smart enough and it would be evolutionarily disastrous if it wasn't to be like well alright it was beautiful while it lasted but I guess we're not getting that dopamine from that substance anymore so it'd be best to reinvest our time and energy elsewhere in the whole natural food that is giving us some some dopamine some pleasure so you just have to get yourself out of that acute process and it will feel as easy as it felt the first time or feel easier in any case so you know as soon as we get back to something resembling normalcy you could you could go put yourself in jail at True North health center or with nacre spelled at his place in LA and do some sort of fast or do some kind of reset in that way to accelerate that process that would really really bring you back in tune with your true taste calibration or you could do something like just a aged days program I'm Aries mini potato HAC there are many different ways that you can sort of accelerate the process of resetting your taste buds and recalibrating nice Norris says I love the term super normal foods for the highly addictive food-like substances that many people eat and I believe in the pleasure trap dr. Lisle calls it magic food a lot of people who know you from true north either they're watching live from there or have been there saying how great you look that you look like you've lost even more weight I love how you mentioned the the solutions a belly full of potatoes that's like pretty much the answer to everything it's yummy yeah I mean over and over again when that when they you know pointy-headed scientists do satiety tests of foods boiled and seen potatoes even even the humble white potato to come out way at the top of the list of most satiating thing that you can eat they're just there they're relatively high protein per calorie they're very full of water and fiber these things like when you eat a pound of potatoes you're really not going to be interested in much else and it's it's like it's such a it's such a little hack to just get you through those really difficult moments and you know I will all cheat and I'll put hot sauce on them or I'll put some 21 spice like a little bit of salt in the hot sauce you know don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good in this sense where if I'm putting some salty hot sauce on my pound of potatoes to keep me out of calorie frozen pizza at Whole Foods like so be it you know that is a trade that I'm willing to make to avoid getting sucked into the grips of the pleasure trap and the rabbit hole that I'm then going to have to claw my way back out of because I don't want to go through that process again I don't want to go through the hit to my self-esteem process in the self loathing process that also has to be rebuilt I would rather just continue to sustain the the level of pride that I have in my accomplishments and and do something that I know will get me through the day and for me that's very often katay toes absolutely Wanda says I was at true north in October dr. Hoffler great then but even thinner now yay good for her I think I'm gonna blush I really appreciate that guys thank you and Susan says hey chef AJ hey dr. hawk I'm listening from True North health center dr. Hawk is right about the potatoes I watched her slimmed-down since my fast last summer she looks amazing she looks even thinner now stay disagreeable don't feed your kids junk food give that kid a potato very nice so you know I know you have to we're almost out of time I know you have to go see a patient pretty soon so you could probably talk for a very long time on this next question so maybe you just kind of give a Reader's Digest version and then this will entice people to you know listen to the beat your genes podcast which airs tonight but first I want to say there is a common saying she is the female doctor Lyle but she's she's much prettier and and much more kind I'll send all your checks in the mail for all of this esteem thank you guys I really appreciate it thank you and now she has been dubbed the goddess of evolutionary working on that t-shirt so this is a very open-ended question and this is what the subject of your book is about with dr. Lyle but Debbie says but how do you work on the esteem part oh well yes your your right to cue me to like keep it short that was a very dr. Lyle move I've seen you do that with him where it's like okay just like contain yourself because we're on a clock the more I work with them the more I sort of them also like I I didn't used to take 45 minutes to answer a question but I'm watching myself sort of move in that direction because these are such complex dynamics and it does get to a point where you don't want to you don't want to oversimplify things because for people to really understand the process you have to kind of go from step one all the way to step 189 but for working on your esteem process the very short version of that is that esteem is you know self-esteem there's many kinds of esteem but the one what we were when we were talking about self-esteem what that is it is it is your evaluation of your own diligence toward accomplishing an important goal that's what it is and it's it comes via what we call the internal audience which is a little committee of people that lives in your head it's the designated tissue in your brain that is watching your rehearsal process to see how competitive you're going to be out there in the in the Stone Age Village where how competitive you are really matter and so so when we when we're preparing for battle when we're preparing to be competitive it that requires a level of diligence and attention to the fundamentals of any important goal so if you're wanting to lose weight that goal has fundamentals you have to do certain things every day to accomplish that goal you have to eat healthy food you have to eat whole natural whole natural plant food for the most part and you know there's a couple of other things that are very helpful you can get outside you can move your body you can do these things they're not essential it's really mostly about the food but your self esteem is absolutely a function of your internal audience watching how good a job you're doing with the basics it doesn't care about the outcome it doesn't care if you lost two pounds this week or you gained two pounds this week or you lost 50 pounds this year or you didn't lose any pounds this year it doesn't really care about that what it cares about is how what kind of effort you made to get where you are now and if it's watching you and it recognizes that you phoned it in and you self-sabotage and you you could have done a much better job than you did and you came up with all these excuses not to do it and you avoided the competitive process the internal audience is gonna be a little disgusted with you and you're gonna feel it whereas if you did your best and you you really you followed the fundamentals and you just did the basics day in and day out regardless of the outcome your self-esteem is going to rise because your internal audience is going to give you an A for effort it doesn't it doesn't give you the a for the class it gives you the A for effort and that's what you want to be chasing in life you don't want to be chasing the a from other people you know who are all like oh you know you lost weight and now I want to date you and I didn't want to date you before that's what is actually mostly motivating people but that's the wrong way to think about it you want to achieve to the internal process of being proud of yourself self-esteem is just another word for pride so the more you can kind of do a good job with what you know is going to eventually make you more competitive you will unleash the self-esteem process and and that is actually like the engine of a happy life so that's the that's the shortest answer I can give to that very complex question but we are writing an entire book about it right exactly and so people are asking the name of the book it isn't out yet that is the subject of the book people are asking about the name of the podcast it's beat your jeans GE NES it will be on in six hours on BlogTalkRadio you can listen to over 200 episodes on itunes BlogTalkRadio stats pitchers stitcher stitcher or Spotify people say I love listening to doctor like she's a great speaker and person in general very comforting and compassionate there's a very funny comment here that was left by Jesse I think the cravings committee in my head killed the self esteem committee in my head yeah they definitely do battle sometimes the cravings committee actually will try to lobby the self-esteem committee so the internal audience has to like it's like it's a congressional office that has to deal with all of these lobbyists all the time and the cravings committee will come in and try to make a case like I don't know if you're aware of this but there's a lockdown and we're in quarantine and if there's ever a time to get into the crappy food this is it I would totally be justified right now and it makes its case to the internal audience and and sometimes the internal audience will get a little bit swayed by it and then later it kind of wakes up out of its haze and it's like okay well I'm disappointed in everybody now so this is this is the process this is why it's process over outcome it's like just get back on the on path and continue to do the things that you know are going to eventually lead you to success regardless of whatever happened today and whatever vicissitudes are dealing with so so yeah yeah lovely I love that you talked about the basics because I've always heard in in every area not just weight loss but people that are successful they execute the fundamentals better than anyone else yeah it is it's it's all about just getting really familiar with the fundamentals it's you know the phrase that we will use sometimes is that it's a string of pearls so if you're making a movie you know people don't sit down and make a movie they make one tiny little scene after another it's just like a thousand different tiny scenes that take oh they're like 30 seconds each and they're all strung together like a string of pearls and that's what all success is that's what all achievement is and the more little string you know pearls that you put on that string the more sense of accomplishment and self-efficacy you have because you start to make some progress and you're like look at that I'm making a string of pearls like I've got some I've got some at my back and it's funny that we talked about Seinfeld early on because he's notorious for talking about the human desire to not break a streak so when he has a goal he'll get a big calendar and he'll he'll make X's on the calendar because he he recognizes that once you get some momentum once you start pushing that snowball down the hill and it picks up some more speed you don't want to break that momentum you don't want to look at that streak of X's on your calendar and and break it and so he recognizes that tendency in human nature and that's really what self-esteem is he's he's tapping into his internal audience and his self-esteem process by watching his progress toward toward something that's important to improving his competitive positions right well thank you for talking to us people are very grateful for your time yes because I've been trying to go live every day with some wonderful expert like yourself but people stuck at home yeah really fun in Florence said thank you such a great way to be stuck at home with two very intelligent accomplished and beautiful women well well that's lovely thank you guys so much nice and jeff jessica says potatoes are the answer and that's right get yourself a belly potatoes and we'll pray together and you know if you'd like to talk to dr. Hawk personally you can just go to her website or doctors also dr. Lyles website esteem dynamics calm I had posted it on the thread earlier just click on it you can select your time and she and you would just love talking to imagine that this whole hour that she just spent is just on you can you imagine how it will propel you to the next level in your journey towards optimal health and and weight loss if that's your thing because she's actually done it she's lost almost 100 pounds she's kicked alcohol she can help you too thank you so much dr. huh Thank You AJ love talking to you and cover like well find out what size t-shirt you are because that sure is oh I'm frightened I always like a little extra a little extra goddess bling so I'm down so with large large medium probably probably a medium depends on the cut but yeah yeah alright I might be alright that we're gonna I have a friend who's a designer so thank you guys you're gonna turn down a free t-shirt so we have tomorrow it's a 2 p.m. and we have Victoria Moran thanks again doctor ha thank you everybody why I have gone I [Music]
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