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Chef AJ: Ideal Weight and Anxiety Eating | Healthy Living LIVE! Interview with Dr Doug Lisle
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hey everybody and welcome to healthy living life I'm chef AJ and my guest today is one of our very favorites dr. Doug Lyall he's not only the co-author of the pleasure trap but he's the psychologist at both the True North health center and the mcdougal lemon program both located in Santa Rosa California he has an amazing podcast that he stars every weekend Wednesday nights at 8:30 p.m. Pacific time called beat your jeans GE n is and you can listen to that live and even ask questions live you can find it on blog talk radio or iTunes and there's over a hundred episodes now that you can listen to and he's got an amazing website esteem dynamics calm or you can watch all kinds of great audio and video and even book a private consultation with him so welcome dr. Lyle we love talking to you they love listening to you so we've collected some interesting questions over the few months that you've done these monthly broadcasts for us and sometimes we don't get to all the questions so I'll get to as many as you're able to ask to answer today okay so this was an interesting one I thought from Phil we get mostly we get women watching and writing but so whenever there's a dude I always try to get his questions asked he said why is there so not so much but he said why is there softened disagreement among the wonderful plant-based doctors about what seems to be my new show instead of arguing either openly or not openly shouldn't they be concentrated on being on the same since mine or than fighting amongst themselves so he wants to know why that happens and you know the truth is there isn't anything to be done about it what what this is is this is human nature so human nature is that knowledge advances as people argue that's how it works and so science is driven by the the egos the people that are trying to prove themselves right and prove their competitors wrong and so the the competitions involved here are at different levels so for example let's suppose that there was a concerted effort on the part of I don't know some some group of people to try to crush the notion of plant-based nutrition then our guys would all gang up to okay but because there's not a concerted effort you've heard this story many times and from many different places in your life so you heard you know the democrats say well we Democrats argue like crazy amongst ourselves but as soon as we are attacked then we're rude okay or we Americans who fight among ourselves but once were attacked that we're all on same pitch okay this is human nature so within any group there's a constant squabbling that's the nature of human beings this is and I'm not going to say it's just for people as he goes it's because they really believe or usually often they really believe what it is if they're saying so you can imagine seven guys on some a long hike and then there's an argument amongst them which exactly is the right trail mom they're gonna like fight about it okay the but but if there's a another group comes along says oh no it's that way it's like well no wait a second we don't know these will we trust you people okay so this is a the notion it's or the coagulation of a physician will take place when there's an outside threat there's no outside threat to plant-based nutrition it's all just some scattered basic background noise of the general culture and so as a result we are free in this arena to squabble about as this as this questioner ass says minutiae a lot of times it's not exactly by Anusha but it's close and a lot of it is mention and that's how we battle it out and see if there's any flaws and anybody's reason or any or any deficits in in their own information base and that's that's how it was perfectly healthy and perfectly reasonable okay well thank you so much so amber has a question about body dysmorphia she wants to know why it's so common in women even women that are beautiful fit and lean yeah I think it's I think that what you're seeing is the issue of hyper conscientiousness so this is a person I think this is more of a personality issue than anything else the I think it probably sometimes juxtaposes some other issues like for example if you have been in any kind of a competitive arena where there has been a lot of scrutiny about your body model actress gymnast a swimmer you know if your if your body has been out there open for inspection and criticism and and your female females women by you listening I talked like a biologist that guy get up but the women I'll try to try to get this straight the women are a higher percentage of their mate value is in their attractiveness as opposed to men it isn't that a lot of commands mate values and in their attractiveness it is okay but a higher percentage of that of that total attractiveness is in is in the female attractiveness and the female physique is very important to the male eye because the males are looking to detect pregnancy and so as a result even if you're a few pounds overweight it can it can be disturbing to a woman to even deal with a little bit of shape that does isn't perfect and if you if you add this to things if you've had as I said any kind of history involving scrutiny and if you add to them also a very high conscientiousness which of course interestingly enough people that are actresses models and gymnasts and swimmers are going to tend to be high conscientious these are competitive arenas they need be a little wacky and the performance or you knows but that doesn't mean they don't have like much inches this you know an actress has to show up at 4 a.m. every day and you know get her makeup done this is no joke and so the the so it's not surprising that people that get into these you know in any of these arenas how the high conscientiousness that plus the added scrutiny will lead to essentially an overestimation of the worst case scenario so now every little flaw is is magnified and I think that this contributes a lot to this so it's not just those I mean it's anybody so it could be any any gal essentially any age probably started at 12 when when we start to notice that our shapes as our as a female that's different than the shape of a male and that matters and that people are paying attention if you happen to be hyper conscientious individual it wouldn't be surprising for for you to not only notice these issues but also become hyper sensitive and so this is you know this is a big root of eating disorders isn't the dysmorphia but rather the anxiety that one is not doing things perfect and and that one is not perfect so this is you know this is a hard hard road to hoe because of what what is in summary niz a phenomenal strength which is super light conscientiousness but in other areas it can be your Achilles heel and so that's that's why this is that's really interesting how you framed it in terms of conscientiousness I never thought about it that way do you think that the fashion industry and the motion picture industry and television industry perpetuates eating disorders in some way in women because these body sizes don't seem to be attainable for most people and even some of our wonderful plant-based doctors and I'm not going to mention their names but two of them have height weight charts that most women that I know cannot meet and they come to the ultimate weight loss program looking really good really fit really thin but they're ten pounds heavier than dr. X's weight chart and they are hyper conscientious and they beat themselves up and then they restrict and then they binge so could you talk a little bit about how maybe those height weight charts are not going to help them in their journey beautiful question beautiful question I don't know that I've ever spoken on this issue directly so let's let's back up and let's try to understand something the your your body is designed by nature to get to essentially an ideal weight we're going to call an ideal weight range so there's a there's a range of weights where you and we're going to talk about women now we could talk about men or women we're going to talk about just about women now because there's some specifics there's something specific to women there are there's a range of weights where where you would be fertile if you're in your fertile years so let's suppose you're thirty and let's suppose you're five foot six if you're five foot six and you're 110 pounds there's a very good chance that you're not fertile the you might be but you might not be we're starting to really push the envelope and what's happening is is that the genes are detecting that your fat stores are so low that it must be the case that calories are very hard to come by in this environment and therefore it's unlikely that you get compromised by pregnancy that you could ever have enough calories to support the pregnancy so the genes basically say not a good time we're just going to wait okay and so the genes would just shut down your menstrual cycle and wait until the body composition has changed where the weight ranges are more appropriate for being able to carry a child to turn the it's also the case that even if you're a bit heavier god I even hate to use those words because I know how sensitive people are but let's suppose your weight is a bit more normal now now I'll take another stab at it let's say you're five six and 117 pounds it also might be exactly what I weigh and that's my height all right let's say for example that one of the things that you're doing is you are running five miles a day now at this point what can happen is even though your body composition may be normal enough in order to maintain a pregnancy and therefore menses would be on it maybe off and the reason is is that the the all of the stress that you're putting on the system by exercising that vigorously can signal to the genes that Wow we may have enough calories for you to be doing okay but you are working way too hard for those calories we can tell how hard you're working for these calories and therefore this is also not going to be viable all right so I've seen people five to six five seven 125 pounds no menstrual cycle that's because they're ferocious exercisers okay so in other words the genes are trying to read the tea leaves here and they're trying to figure out whether or not you're in an environment that is going to be supportive of being able to be pregnant and I bring a child to term so the so as a result we we actually have a device that we could see that's going on which is the menstrual cycle which will tell you when things are a little too rough and particularly that you're too thin so that's a so that's one end of the continuum the other end of the continuum would be as you if you were to eat a diet it was comprised of whole natural foods of any reasonable evidence of you all what's going to happen is that there's going to need a sense of our flag what is your exercise level what is your calorie density level they eating to society and what are your genes and I would also say you could spend principle a fourth factor what is your age so the truth is is that the genes at 20 at 18 years old haven't fully formed you yet it was you're you're still an embryo this is still run and you're going to be somewhat different at 30 than you are at 18 so so as a result you can't necessarily tell the story about what a person you know well won't necessarily wind up at your high school weight to 20 years later that isn't necessarily how it'll work because you may have still been going through some developmen processes you'll see this you'll see this very often in men that they may be slender at 22 but at 32 they're a lot stronger they they might have put on 15 pounds of muscle we're a different animal than they were earlier and women can be the same way so any rate so this is sort of a wide wide-ranging discussion as I'm trying to get at some important points and that is is that there is there is no right wait for you there's a right way under conditions of how much of what the caloric density is that you're eating and how and your age and your exercise level so let's suppose that someone is five foot six and let's suppose that there's a range where they would be optimally healthy from 115 to maybe 140 pounds yeah you might say wow that's a big range yeah it is a big range just there's there's a fairly big range as to how much sunshine you could handle and how tan you would get that's also the case okay so also you know how much musculature is going to be on the system without essentially stressing the system so much behind so much muscular action that you actually start wearing out joints yeah there's there's a range of there isn't one little place in the in the world where you're at your perfect spot okay there's a there's a whole range of places now now we're going to look at that because that's an interesting idea so let's let's quit freaking people out and let's let's narrow this down a little bit let's suppose that you're five six and with the given genetics that you that the the weight range looks like for you on a very lean diet pretty high exercise level but you have your period you're 125 pounds okay then we back off the exercise some degree we enrich the diet to some degree also but not using any artificial food and now you're 138 it's like okay now we're looking at a 13 you get all agreed that's a 13 pound weight range you can't find a single biochemical parameter in that person's blood at 1:38 that isn't just as good as it is at 125 okay so there's there's an absolutely no objective evidence to say about 138 pounds is in any way inferior the hunter 25 pounds when it comes to health now here's the problem now we're going to do two things well what we can do this we can put that person's body and a shadow screen and take photography of it from every angle as long as we're being obsess in that cases we might as well be this obsessive okay now that person's shot of pictures up on the internet and we let I don't know a hundred thousand men rate these things from every angle and we put we've not only do that we put the ranges up we put her up at 125 126 and 127 128 29 all put 14 different versions up there from 125 to 138 okay now we're going to find out that there's a bell curve of which one the male's of the world feel is most attractive and not only that it gets complicated are we in Morocco if it turns out that the this men are going to be house slightly different versions of what it is that they think what about if we go to China what if we go into the Central America it's all going to be different so well I'll tell you what we're gonna do we're gonna just go to Peoria Illinois which is exactly where they took the Broadway plays to find out what plays in Peoria so we're going to take you know 25,000 men from Peoria of all ages oh no no we're not we're just going to take the ages of that specific woman who what ages she'd be interested in okay so let's just take those and and with socio-cultural background of those individuals we're going to weed those out so we get just the guys that she wants and then we're going to put those more 14 different versions up there and what we're going to get folks is a bell curve and we have no idea where that bell curve is going to peak in other words we don't know which version is the is the most tract if this is 125 pounds is that this is actually a curve that's it's very high and then slopes down only half of the bell curve and that 138 is the least attractive is it turns out that it's in the middle that it's at 131 and then it shapes beautifully on either side you sit up at 135 and it shapes the other way so it goes low early and then goes fire as we go I don't know nobody knows okay and I can guarantee you who doesn't knows the fashion industry and television they don't know and so the so here's what's it because they're actually presenting people for all audiences for men and women alike and children and everything else censor all right so the you've got camera distortions and all kinds of things going on so what to actually people really find most attractive the first question is what people Annie and second of all but then if you then you would have to look at this whole range so now you start realizing well now wait a second the are you telling me there isn't a most aesthetically appealing and the answers yeah that's subjective in the sense that there's there's a bell curve where you would be the most popular that's true okay but you have to understand that two or four pounds different it would be almost exactly the same okay and that two or three pounds different from that would be very close so now you start looking at that there's tremendous subjectivity that's going to go on within your healthy range gets worse than that because it turns out that there's a lot of people that would prefer you outside of the healthy wrenches so there's people that are actually actually prefer you thinner than the healthy range and there's people that would prefer you if you were heavier than the healthier range it's like ah for crying out loud well who the hell are you gonna please right so let's back up and say okay you cannot have all the candy in the store and so I've always heard these terms like Oh Walt Frazier was such cool dude you know basketball player the New York Knicks you can have any woman he wanted no he couldn't Walt Frazier is very cool he was very smooth he had a great game had incredibly stylish clothes the guy was a freaking rock star okay but could he have any woman no he couldn't okay how about some PhD in neuroscience from Columbia University which you want to hang out with him I don't think so okay so the point is is that nobody and I mean nobody not Miss America not Raquel Welch not you know Lady Gaga nobody has all the candy in the store and so what we have to do is you got to get realistic about the notion of what if your job is to be healthy and your job is to be healthy eating a diet that you're comfortable with the satiates you that you feel good and you are healthy okay exercise it a reasonable level so that you feel good and you feel healthy and then you let that chips fall where they may that's how I look at this problem and the truth is is if it turns out that you are that where you land let's suppose that you're this gal and you land at one thirty-six okay and then and you're like cheap but the truth is that the computer tells me that I would have a little bit higher market share at 128 it's like okay well you know if you want to suffer so that so that a few percentage more of people like so 36 percent of people find you super appealing at 128 but 31 percent of people would find you super appealing 136 and you want to move that line over to pick up a few percentage points how about it I think it's crazy in my judgment so I think it's a misunderstanding of the math of this problem the truth of the matter is is that somebody prefers you at 1:38 somebody else for Spurs you're 137 somebody else prefers you 136 at 35 at 34 all the way down to 125 those are different people different eyeballs different genetics different preferences you know this is the this is what I call the subjective with within the object or the subjectivity within the objectivity you make me a beautiful burrito fantastic whole natural foods Azuki beans everything just fantastic the way I like it you put cilantro in it and I'm done I'm sending it back I don't care if 19 people in a row say oh my god that's the best for you I've ever had it's like not me I'm not eating a bite of it as soon as I smell the Serrano cilantro I'm out there is great subjectivity in these arenas okay and so you you don't have an idea wait and nobody does yes well as a result that it's plain to taste it you let your body simply find where you are healthy and fit and that you feel good eating the food that you like to eat and you know you you try to make peace with the notion that there is subjectivity within the object of how that this is one of the most profound and beautiful things I've ever heard and I think it's going to help a lot of women dr. Lyle because I think that they believe that they are more attractive at a lower weight they they think that at least how they feel about themselves and I also think a lot of them think because these two prominent doctors have these charts that therefore it must be for health reasons and that they must get down to these weights that may not be attainable for them without a great deal of suffering and deprivation so so this is incredible you know it's interesting because we have a theater here where we have something called throwback Thursdays where they show movies from the 40s 50s and 60s and I recently saw Guys and Dolls and breakfast and Tiffany's Breakfast at Tiffany's and I was astounded by the fact that even the extras in the background back then people were just leaner and I'm wondering does attractiveness change as people change because really lean people are the minority right now and so do we develop taste preferences for what's around us so like Jennifer said what I'm saying like if everybody's overweight do we start thinking that that's more attractive or in the old days there really weren't that many overweight people and that's all there was we know that we know that they're the taste tastes do change and there is a and there and it's undoubtedly moving along the dimension just that I'm talking about so it's moving along that dimension from 125 to 138 you know what it's just even it out call it 40 because there are there are women that are extremely attractive at five six 140 pounds there's women that are extremely attractive at five six and 150 pounds okay so these are so bet but for an individual that that individual probably would not have that much range because anybody that's extremely attractive the five six 150 is a very strong human just by nature be so probably her range would be 135 be 150 but the point or was I wander off into the weeds in no time age what happened yeah it was just what we prefer yeah right so culture is is for our four five six 125 to 140 percent the culture will move along it'll move back and forth along continuing okay so that we can tell that's been happening research that's been done in social psychology is actually observe this over the last 30 years so right now we are you know were the preferences for the thinner side of the female body type that wasn't true in 1965 so in 1965 you know the public might have been thinner just cuz they wanted as much rich food but the preferences were for poor women that were slightly curved you so the the the cameras will put on you know ten percent or so and so Raquel Welch she was about five six and one twenty I was a was an iconic ideal was really looking in photography like she was 132 pounds okay so it's five six or so so that's the so that was that that was same curvier body type than the one that that you're going to see you know in magazine today it's going to be a little bit thinner so you know not not Trinity look thinner you know maybe seventy percent so that that this is sort of that range of 125 to 140 125 to 140 now we're on the thinner side of it I have no doubt that the pendulum will move around nobody has any idea what drives these things it's not the fashion industry isn't driving anything they're following sort of natural human changes in preferences they sort of follow what their sails look like in eyeballs so there you know in your and again what I would also say is that that that it's a this is a huge subjective scramble so I remember I had a kind of a funny incident that really brought this home a friend of mine was from Hollywood no less the that was in dr. gold hammers office and he there was a Arizona a magazine called shake and I had seen that magazine I had been working in the office and it was there's an attractive or on lady on the cover and I remember looking at that thinking why would they have that woman on the cover because she's too thin they just I just thought kind that's weird like that is on the cover and and he came out that we had lunch later on that day this is particular friend of mine didn't get his back worked on and he says oh my gosh it was hard to concentrate on what Alan was saying is I kept looking over at that cover of this magazine maybe out of this office and I said the shape magazine with the blonde he says yeah I said that's unbelievable yeah two completely different responses okay so other words that was a great example of the huge subjectivity and and preferences it's just it's just like taste of food okay so knocking yourself out too try to quote hit some ideal there is no such thing as an ideal anybody that is observing you that you're trying to impress okay or that you're some audience you're trying to impress they every single person in that audience man woman and child you know has a different view of what they would think would be ideal so the kids don't really care they just just like smiling pretty faces okay but the but the adults the you know and if you're when whoever it is that you would like to think that you're attractive the truth of the matter is there's no way that we should be working to try to more faraway for a specific for specific thing not not in suffer doing it your job is to get healthy get healthy and get fit and let the chips fall where they may yeah I hope all the women watching this will will take your advice because I see them suffering so Mona round this issue and the truth is is it really doesn't matter cuz you're not gonna please everybody like you say when I was heavy people told me I was too fat and now I'm told you're too thin you don't look good so I mean Who am I trying to look good for like you say be healthy and that's and that's and throw the scale away you did a whole lecture once about the people that were scale monkeys so that this this has been wonderful thank you so much so on to the topic of sleep which you've been very interested in lately and done a few talks about it the fasting escape that wonderful a water only fasting center now in Yorba Linda California that is amazing run by dr. Napier she'll and you speak there sometime to timing you've been talking about sleep and the importance of it for preventing Alzheimer's and all kinds of things and so Leah said that she heard the talk and she says she routinely sleeps nine hours but doesn't reach satiety should she continue and sleep another hour to ten hours or is there a point when that's too much sleep no there's never too much sleep right so she should absolutely be sleeping the satiety and it doesn't matter if it's twelve hours and so your what we want to be doing is sleeping to satiety as many nights of this life and to be sleep satiated as many days and nights you know the modern world is going to attack that with all kinds of inducements and stimulation but absolutely without a doubt there is no such thing as sleeping too much when you're sleeping people say oh lake you depressed now you're probably depressed and that's what you're sleeping your brain is is cycling over a lot of struggles and issues and frustrations and because it's working overtime and it's exhausted then it needs time to recharge so the note to the best of my knowledge there is no evidence to suggest that you can oversleep a brain and so yeah and if you sleep less than you want you are essentially short so yeah sleep as much as you want and as much as you can and it's a debt you can't pay back once you've sleep you can't pay it back so it's not like money where you know it's it's gone it's gone so yes thank you so much for educating us on the importance of sleep I've always valued in my sleep and I actually enjoy it and I'm I don't care if I'm not the life of the party ten o'clock I'm going to bed you can stay out and do what you want but that's my bedtime so another question I sleep you discussed before how difficult it is for people that are shift workers that work the night shift like nurses and stuff but really have a question because she has a little bit of an unusual situation she's sort of like an air traffic controller so she has a really stressful job but they change her schedule every two weeks so one week she starts at 5:30 a.m. the next week she goes from 1:00 p.m. to 9:00 p.m. and then the third week it's 9:00 to 6:00 and so she gets good sleep she had a sleep test but only sleeps 4 to 6 hours so how does somebody with such an erratic schedule practice good sleep hygiene boy these are just overwhelming questions because the truth is is that this is a this is a brutal way to live the this is not how human beings were designed to live so this this person is being just kind of constantly thrown into essentially a crisis situation we're just having to go against their instincts all I can tell her is that that you know work needs to be done in that house to make sure that you have a extremely dark room that you've got whatever Bose headphones on or whatever it is to make it quiet so that you can possibly get a sleep satiated even as you can get the yeah if she's sleeping four to six hours you know whatever somebody says that they tested her and her sleep is fine that just means her sleeps functioning fine it doesn't mean she's good enough so it probably what is happening is the disruption that is caused by this completely wacky schedule is you know it's it's gonna be taking its toll and so all right but this is no way for human beings to be treated I understand that that the world has 24-hour needs these days which is again totally unnatural you know human beings didn't work through the night anywhere ever this is not something but now we're flying all over the globe we got a 24 hour human life now suddenly if it didn't exist a hundred years ago okay so this is this is a totally brand new phenomenon and so you have people now that have jobs it would be better if they had people that were just routinely in exactly the same schedule of the day and they just morph their life around being the person works you know works the night shift yeah it's not easy for people to do that and it's hard on but it's better than having this crazy thing where they rotated and assistant Li and have people all discombobulated so now all I can tell her is get on some good night shades get a dark room get yourself some earplugs and and try to sleep as much as you can that's that's the best thing that I can do it yeah when she came to me I said find another job because it's impacting her ability to eat right and exercise because she's tired all the time yeah this is all I understand it's a very good job it's a highly responsible job and I probably pays quite well I mean this is highly skilled stuff but at the same time it's crazy so yeah try to find some job you never drop control somewhere where they not going to set that found schedule mm-hmm hey that's not an easy you know I know that's easy for me to say and maybe impossible with you but but that's you've got to fight the consequences of that schedule right great thank you somebody's good questions here I don't know which one to go to next but I'll go to this one from Lisa she says why is it when I finally reach my weight goal I think I can relax and have a treat like a glass of wine or a rich dessert vegan of course which invariably causes me to relapse and regain my weight why is weight maintenance so much more difficult than weight loss yeah maybe because when you are losing weight you're feeling the excitement of you're moving towards you and at the achievement and and there's the promise of all the benefit that you're going to get when you get there so you're in the middle of a process and so therefore you're not that kind of you're getting incremental feedback of improvement when you when you stop that process suddenly there's no incremental progress and so as a result the now you're just sort of defending the achievement and it's it's less exciting there's essentially a less less payoff for doing what it is that you're doing the so there's a lot less psychological payoff so I can understand exactly how this would happen this is [Music] this is why it's difficult after a championship team wins it's not easy for them to come back and repeat and that's because they're not as hungry okay they're the the they got to the achievement and now now what what more they have to prove yeah that's why Michael Jordan quit basketball after winning three titles in a row he wouldn't played baseball and try to do something new and different try to actually keep his interest so this is this is human nature so you reach the achievement in your life well now there's no big gain from doing it right so this is what this is where we have to get focused on on paying attention to the very important subtle internal signals that I call self-esteem this is this is really the heart soul of very important life management is paying attention to the fact that you've got an internal audience that's watching your behavior and it's giving you signals feedback as if other people were watching this is very much Ken deployed super-ego the difference being that quoits thinking is that your little super-ego is fixed by early childhood by parental expectations etc and none of that's true okay so what this is is a much more flexible dynamic apparatus that your self-esteem can be very high for three days in a row so you do an excellent job and they can just turn tail the next you know on 4th day where you go and blow it and it's not going to scream at you it's going to be quiet and so very it's a relatively intermediate level whisperer it basically will just have a little internal disgust for what is that you did the truth of the matter is the loud noises and feeling of the steam come from reactions from other people so that's why it is that people try to lose a lot of weight they want to actually get reactions from other people they want to earn a steam from other people write your thoughts out right that's what they that's what the as a person is losing weight what's happening is is that they're getting that kind of treatment and so that's a very exciting process well that can happen managing your managing your zoom I got it put a sign on the door I know you know what it is dr. Lisle if they're delivering the cover for this new microphone and I put a sign on the door and I said please do not knock the baby sleeping thing I've ever seen you are bad dog okay but what the about mean maintenance is harder because the internal audience is it's harder because just by nature quieter and so the so when not when the general audience you've got achieved this weight loss so you're getting good positive feedback from people you know intuitively but if you go eat some junk it's not going to change your weight very much you know it's not so now you start running a cost/benefit on the whole thing here's like well you know why not like what am i some Saint and and why am I really doing this why not do this and the issue here is that that you what you won't hardly notice is that when you do that your internal audience is watching and but if you pay attention you'll find that there's a little bit of self disgust and that little so a little bit of the self discussed there's a reason why it's only a little bit of self disgust because it's not poison it hasn't destroyed you it hasn't completely wrecked your goals so it hasn't wrecked your life but it's there okay so we want to pay attention to we want to get a more aware of the internal audience in its reactions the reason why is that there's a different kind of a feeling that comes with you know even once you reach that weight goal there's a feeling that comes with continuing to earn the esteem of the internal audience and so your this isn't you're not going to necessarily earn it every day and you're not going to do things perfectly but the truth of the matter is is if you do a really good job you get to experience that feeling the Ellen had a story this was an incredible story his his wife's father was some guy from the old country in Italy and so this was his father-in-law and his father-in-law as a young man had worked in some kind of a factory somewhere in the middle of I don't know Jerzy and he was a very hard worker there in high conscientiousness and then what happened is early in his career it the the place got unionized and when it got unionized he's continued to work hard but he started to get social pressure from the other people that were working with him because he was making them look bad and so they they basically you know they were socially pressured him into mediocrity and so for the next 40 years this guy worked at the same Factory in mediocrity and he hated his job and then right before he was to retire for some reason he decided to start to work hard again it's like while he's leaving anyway so you know he's you know you can't kick him out now cuz he's leaving so this very same natural conscientiousness now with nothing to lose this by doing it gets executed and he starts doing an excellent job as his work again and he loves it how about that and then he retires he's like why did I do that why did I spend 40 years miserable I should have just found a way to beat back this pressure that was causing me to beat mediocre they just didn't do it it's been his life miserable he was worth what an incredible story about you know how to do things so his internal audience was miserable with him because he knew you know what it felt like to do well and he didn't do it okay so this is exactly the kind of thing that I'm talking about that the pleasure trap can pull you in to mediocrity and there was a feeling that Kaunas with doing an excellent job and the internal audience watching it back stop feeling that he had when he was doing a good job okay so the reason why it's hard to hold on to this is there's pressure that's that's essentially drawing you in and saying come on go ahead and step out of line and be mediocre and the world isn't going to care they're not they can't tell the difference in your weight if you eat the chocolate somebody or not they have no way of telling us they'll only tell if it goes on for a long time okay so but then we spoke the pleasure trap we've also now undermined our self-esteem and now we have a nice little storm of trouble they've been you know essentially the wheels come off the way to stop this is to get more acutely aware of feeling of self esteem and to understand the value of what it feels like to essentially be doing things wait okay that's that's the defense against this problem and that's what I that's what the slow fast way is all about does a webinar with the Chicago and I think January 2016 that's the that's the focus of that webinar is that what we're trying to do it needs to do a good job for the internal audience and let the chips fall where they made for the external audience which incidentally is exactly the same message that we had earlier in this in this webinar with respect to word is that your weight Lance do an excellent job for your for your health and yourself and let the chips fall more than it that's incredible this is not the first time you've said this but it's so profound especially for people hearing it for the first time because for me when you reframe it like that that the pleasure trap will pull us into mediocrity I don't want to be mediocre I don't want my internal audience disgusted with me so if somebody offers me a rich treat that might be delicious I look at it this way now it's like well I don't want to undermine my self-esteem I don't want to feel disgusted with myself and this is I think it's brilliant it's it's so brilliant it just seems that so many people once they lose weight it's almost like they forget calorie density and they even if they're not lured into the pleasure trap they seem to forget that they need to not only can you what they did to lose weight but maybe even tighten the screws whereas so many people once they lose weight they're like ah I deserve a treat and they loosen the screws and that's why probably less than two percent of the people actually maintain their weight loss yeah I think I think more of our people probably do just because we have a better program that's people losing weight through severe restriction right that is true hmm but these same kind of problems were made so we first had your dog and now I got my cats this is real life you know on a previous broadcast somebody a gentleman had asked you about a co-worker that had lost a lot of weight and started to gain the weight back his clothes were tight and he and he asked you if he should say something and you should say he knows don't say anything so um Judy wanted to know if it's ever appropriate to say something if it's somebody you really love and care about because we've had so many people now in the ultimate weight loss program for me to be exact that have regained a hundred pounds or more we're not talking about you know five pounds and and she feels like she wishes if there was something appropriate to say just like hey I'm like is there something we can say to them before they gain the hundred or is it just shut up mind your own business even if they're your friend yeah mind your own business truth is we are well aware of the problem okay they are vastly more aware of the problem that you are aware of the problem and they are they're paying tremendous psychological prices for you saying it they it is is is in no way useful so just you know mind your own business you signal to those people if they're your friends you signal to them how and why you value them for who it is that they are okay you look right past their their struggle and you let them find their way Wow and don't even say is there anything I can do to help you just don't they ignore the elephant in the room I mean that's a bad choice of words wow that's it's just so hard when you care about them you know yeah but they now so that nothing we can do to help so you're gonna control dancing this is their own personal Odyssey Wow they know they've got the information they know what to do this is this is a this is a quiet personal journey that that everyone has to essentially make make a series of decisions that you know go in a direction that's going to directly counter to instinct this is everybody walks this road their own way and by by pointing out that somebody is failing in some fashion is in no way gonna be helpful okay no thank you yeah Meredith wanted to know if it would make sense to make our food really boring and repetitive or will that get us each ink for new flavors you know there's individual differences here and so this is why it is that you you have to find your own this is actually discovering yourself I turns out that that for me there has to be a moderate level of variety for Alan it's less he needs less variety than I do but not not too dissimilar but I'm a little more a little more adventurous than he is just generally not a lot but but morning chunk more open to experience there's people that are very open to experience that need a lot of novelty and variety or else they're going to get bored those people are gonna have a harder time it's essentially it's essentially the the it's kind of it's kind of like if you if you can go every week weekend to go bowling it's like not a problem you just go bowling but if you're but if you're gonna watch TV there has to be something new every week somebody's gonna have to produce a new show because we can't watch the same shows that we did last week so this is the the novelty seeking chip you know in people can the circumstances can be so different dependent essentially their personalities and so this is a problem if you're so if you're someone who really wants to experience the world and you get bored very quickly which is just absolutely some people's nature then you're going to have to invest more time in their energy in the production and access to novelty one consider just gonna have to do it the I can eat you know one basically russet potatoes if I never had anything but russet potatoes and and yams that's all with the tubers that I would ever let me be okay there's little potatoes purple potatoes yellow potatoes you contacted but yeah I understand but the truth is is all I need is a good organic russet and and a yam that's it that's an individual difference that that has made this writ simpler for me and so and it's going to turn out that the people in general that are the most successful are the people that are they can have the narrowest simplest most repetitive food choices but if that isn't your personality then don't try to make it your personality because it's not your personality so instead this is when you have to go to extra effort to widen the novelty factor and that's that's how I would look bad you have to match your environment with your personality I don't want to come say this Wow that's profound match your environment to your personality that's that's brilliant I think I'm I'm sort of somewhere between you and Alan because I kind of eat the same thing every day and I don't get bored but what I do is I switch up maybe device maybe the different different flavor vinegar one day and that way I'm having kind of what you might say is variety within the restriction the TV i watch i i watch the same episode of lucy every single day so I'm good with that that's great dr. Lyle thank you so Janice says that she notices that her anxiety causes her to eat too much of the starchy foods any tips from dr. Lyle to deal with anxiety without comfort foods yeah that's what she thinks she notices but she doesn't have any idea and so talk about people will think that they can quote eat too much you know whatever healthy foods let's let's see if they really know if that's true that that comes from the the observation that sometimes you eat more than you eat at other times okay so are we eating the right amount at the other times are we reading them the right amount at this time have we actually over eaten or or were we under eating at the other times how do you know and so this is all like speculative so whenever anybody tells me oh I overeat it's like well how would you know overeat for what this right away we've got a you actually have a an incorrect inference on the notion that there's a right amount to eat because there's no such thing so when I get the lecture on the perfect personality I actually have an example that I use that is theoretically an incorrect example but I'm doing it for a reason to try to explain a point and that is that I say okay suppose these two guys need 500 calories for the next while and so if they both eat these 500 hours of whole natural foods they'll both reach satiety at the appropriate time so but now what I want to do is I want to walk that back and I want to explain something there is not a right amount of food for you to eat today at lunch that is an impossible question to answer what's the right amount of food for me to eat a lunch that there is no answer to that question and let me explain why what is the food for are you attempting to you know not eat until five o'clock or are you going to eat it for 45 or you can eat it for 30 or are you going to eat a snack at two o'clock or are you not going to eat till 6:30 okay so what what is the purpose of that food that's like saying what's the right amount asked to put in the car well what do you mean the right amount of gas to put in the car Japan's fine wouldn't we plan to stop next and fill it up or put more gas in the car so the the point is is that as long as there's gas in the car it's fine if you're going to start to get in a danger running out of gas and that's a problem and the little light goes on then you put some gas in I'll get you put in the right amount what do you mean the right amount I put in two gallons it's all the money I have okay and no problem we go we drive for now we drive for a while so what if I filled it well that's all the gas you could put in the car oh I think I put in too much what do you mean too much did you spill it on the ground so if you filled your some stuff yourself fall did you eat too much no all that means is that you're not going to have to to be buying gas too soon that's all so the the question itself you know essentially exposes a mistake in thinking so she's thinking that anxiety causes are eating more starches and that she's eating too much when she does that no no if the anxiety drives you to eat more starches finally what do we care all that means is that means you're it's going to be longer between now and you let's suppose that every ten o'clock she has to face some phone call from some draconian idiot okay and her jaw so she gets anxious and let's suppose that that anxiety causes her the wolf down to big old baked potatoes before so that's just what happens okay so it does and so so now she has the horrendous phone call with this boss but you know once out of Peoria saying got Furion this is that so we have this thing that happens and so now the question is oh did she need too much attend in the morning those two potatoes need too much for what it means whenever that phone call comes in just what she's not as hungry at lunch who she is normally right so did you eat too much that or not eating enough of lunch or what so this is my answer the question is no your anxiety is not causing me to answer that were true then what what happened is is that anxious individuals would be more overweight than on anxious individuals which is not true okay so so relax if you're anxious and that anxiety causes you to chomp through a bunch of whole natural foods this is not going to be caused you to be systematically overweight you are not overeating it just means that you're eating more right now and you've might be the the eating of the food is probably causing some endorphins to be released because that the organism creates a little bit of stress when you're hungry and it basically says hey we got to worry about starvation anything that's ever fasted for a day knows what this feels like you start going ten twelve you know ten hours without food you start to get a little edgy it's like a this is not comfortable you start realizing what an incredibly important central issue having food in you is and what an enormous li important issue food is of life food is a much bigger issue in life than people are aware of in the modern environment Stone Age individuals are thinking about food constantly food is a tremendously important sure this is what runs the action in the animal kingdom it's food like wow this is a really big deal we've actually pushed food into a small corner hey it's it's so abundant and you can just go down and throw a $5 bill on the counter and get food but this is not what food is really about in human life so it's no surprise if you're getting anxious that there would be a soothing process that would go along with eating food yeah it's going to relax some anxiety down that's true now you say well gee am i eating I'm eating too much because of that what do you mean too much what about all that that's going to happen is that it's going to push down the road and delay your hunger so it's not causing you to eat too much so if you're if you're having a weight problem it isn't because anxiety is driving driving you to overeat your food you may have noticed the connection between anxiety and and chomping down some more searches but that's not causing you to systematically every to your systematically overeating it's for some other reason ie somewhere in there we've got food that's to my fourth density Wow thank you so much you no matter how many times you say this women are still afraid to to not restrict their food especially starches and in it's funny because so many of them come to us from those weighing and measuring programs where they're taught there is a correct amount of food to eat every single day regardless of how tall you are or how much you weigh and there's a specific time you're supposed to eat it and there's the hardest people I have to work with to do to reprogram them but it's it's almost the most difficult thing I think we do Neely interesting I mean that that's just fascinating misconceptions and the whoever is coming up with that idea is way out there like this is so inconsistent with biology that it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever the and this is of course nothing the trouble and mischief or people that are very high conscientiousness so you give a high conscientious person this little set of procedures that they're supposed to do and you can get them essentially unconscious of some very strong signals that are coming from other places in the nervous system that are telling them that this is ridiculous right and they come to me and they say well I don't know when I'm hungry well and I don't know when I'm full because they're that they've done this make where this comes from doctor allows from the the food addiction people like Overeaters Anonymous and where this is how they treat overweight or obesity with a weighing and measuring food plan and also their food plan doesn't include the kind of foods that we would include it's improving rate oils and animal products and salt and yeah yeah this is all this is all some some pretty serious misconceptions up and up and down the line all the way into academia an interesting thing that I just yeah I just heard about I'm sure you did because you're so more connected to the world that I am that a major Cornell and researcher that it was actually a researcher the behavioral sciences side of the nutrition field so Paul Campbell had never met this person but there at Cornell or a big-shot professor and it turns out that the guy was just doing horrendous science and publishing like crazy and some of the science that he published i have criticized i never read his work i didn't even know his name but i had just heard the results and the result one of the things he said was well put the food in a smaller plate and then it looked like it's more fitted Oh Brian Wansink yeah okay and I I've heard that ten years ago and I and I that that kind of talk drives me crazy it's like the notion and I've heard very intelligent people parrot this because after all these published somewhere so there's there's truth in it and I'm like I know there's no truth in I know that's totally bogus but you wonderly want to try this with your dog so you're gonna put the same you're put 80% of the food you usually food put for Bailey put it on a tiny tiny little plate now but everything on the plate and let's see if Bailey's like oh my god that's too much okay the notion that a nervous system of an animal that has been exquisitely designed over three and a half billion years of evolution to make sure that it gets a right amount of food for survival and optimally puts its put its chemistry in the situation to optimize its survival for the right amount of fat stores right about the strength right about muscle for the challenges that it has you're telling me that you can fool that thing with the size of the plate that is insane and I knew it was crazy now I don't have time to chase down every crazy idea and go to my own lab and prove it lon that's what they count on so this guy published trash science for his whole career was a big-shot professor he's a fraud okay and the thing is is that a lot of us that sit tight to this and watch real live people eat in real-life circumstances and watch them get well we know the truth and what we speak of this integrated down all the way through biology okay so this is this notion that you need to weigh and measure your food really if you think that's true why isn't it happening throughout the animal kingdom for every other species the answer is it's a ludicrous idea do what about keeping the food within a certain narrow window during the day no there's absolutely no evidence that anywhere in the animal kingdom this takes place so the truth is is that you need to society on the food in foods of your national history at any time a day or night that that food would be reasonably available okay you're not don't wake yourself up in the middle of the night with alarm clock so that you can go eat some more food on say you know use some reasonable judgment but yes weighing and measuring food windows all this kind of stuff this makes no sense and guess what at no surprise that there is no scientific support for it and anybody that is saying their scientific support for it is not reporting any science that is legitimate okay so this is yeah this program what is that you're doing this is this is you know you know we can have disagreements and there's going to be some smart people that are going to you know have 3% 5% bull mold you know we can this is this place with the question we started with there's going to be some subtle argumentation as we fiddle around around exactly what's true and work and what's a little 3 3 degrees off but that's all the truth is the program that you're insuring with people is outstanding and you you you want to go just exactly this direction and this is this is the way home and this is the way to get some inner peace where you don't have to be doing some of this crazy stuff that's completely contrary to our nature wow that's amazing and you know dr. Lyle any time I've tried to put my food on a smaller plate I've just had to go back for so many more servings so like about True North dr. Goldhamer has purchased the largest plates available 11 inch dinner plates uh-huh yeah there you go and yet everyone magically loses weight no way that's right you think Wow well thank you so much you are just such a delight to talk to and your information is amazing whenever I interview you I I like to listen to it over and over because you speak the truth so thank you so much dr. Lyle and thanks to all of you for watching another episode of healthy living I'm chef AJ and I make healthy tastes delicious
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